Talk:The Citadel (military college)/Archive 1

Gen/Flag officers, CMOH recipients, Rhodes Scholars
According to school's own alumni office, 1 grad attained the active-duty rank of four-star general. Also according to their alumni office, the correct numbers of general/flag officers is actually 126. 340 was a gross overstatement. Website given simply shows alumni page with no information on numbers, etc. For research purposes, how many Citadel graduates have been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor and how many Rhodes Scholars? User:Allotta123
 * The answer to your question is: The school has graduated 0 Congressional Medal of Honor Recipients and 0 Rhodes Scholars. This fact, along with only 1 active-duty four star and the small number of general/flag officers does not impress. One would think there would be more noteworthy accomplishments, but then again, perspective students need only a 2.8 GPA and a 900 SAT score to get into the school...not very impressive indeed. User:Backgammon


 * Check your facts... we have in fact graduated Rhodes Scholars, and with the relatively small number of 4 star generals currently serving, the fact that even one came from a single school is not as UN impressive as you may think... also, the AVERAGE matriculant this past August had a 3.2 and nearly 1200 SATs... I worked in the Admissions Office and as the school's recruiter. User:alum05


 * Actually, you are mistaken, there has never been a Rhodes Scholar from the Citadel. Just ask the director of the honors program at the school, his name ironically is, Lt Col. Rhodes... Your numbers for GPA/SAT are also off. 2.5 and 900 are more realistic. Check US News on that one. The school is also half military and half civilian...those are the facts...sorry. Backgammon 16:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * My mistake.. you are right about there not being any Rhodes Scholars.. I meant to say Fullbright Scholars, which there have been several of. I need not check my facts on the GPA and SATs, as I was responsible for this stuff over the past two years... the only 900 SATs and 2.5 GPAs that get in are quota fillers on the football team. Over 95% have 1000-1100+ SATs and 3.00 GPAs. And, once again, the school is NOT half military and half civilian. For that.. see Norwich University or Texas A&M.


 * The Knob Knowledge database at http://citadel.edu/library/Knob/knob_r.htm states "RHODES SCHOLARS No Citadel graduates ever became Rhodes Scholars. Citadel President General John S. Grinalds, a graduate of the USMA, was a Rhodes Scholar." Grinalds joined in 1997 so unless there has been one since then and this database hasn't be updated, the number of Rhodes Scholars is zero. Rillian 17:06, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Correct number of General Officer or equivalent is 126. Check out http://citadel.edu/library/Knob/knob_g.htm User:Nate —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 153.26.176.34 (talk • contribs) 06:33, 15 September 2005   (UTC)


 * Good find. However, that count hasn't been updated since 12 October 1998. Assuming at least four more generals in the past seven years means "over 130" should be accurate. Rillian 20:57, 16 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Be careful with assumptions...Checked other sources, there have been no new general officers since 1998. 126 is accurate.Allotta123 17:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Article length
The article was approaching the recommended Wiki maximum, so the list of distinguished alumni has been edited to highlight just the most major achievements. Perhaps a separate article is warranted, but it shouldn't just be a dump from the Citadel alumni database. Pat Conroy was already mentioned in the Fictional Depiction section.

Sexual abuse scandals
A recent news story mentioned recent "sexual abuse scandals" at The Citadel. Yet the article barely mentions sexual harrassment. Why? Cynicalkane 02:36, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Not that I deny the possibility of such an article being written "recently," I'd double check the date or the subject manner, as any significant cases are nearly 10 years old now. User:alum05


 * Actually, about two or three years ago there was a Marine Corps officer (a Citadel graduate) who was convicted of sexual assault on little boys while he was on active duty serving at the Citadel. Apparently, he was sexually assaulting young boys while they slept in their tents on the parade grounds of the Citadel during the Citadel Boys Camp. The Beaufort Gazette and the Post and Courier reported this extensively. It was also in the news. Allotta123 17:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, but that was not connected with the actual Citadel college, but rather its summer camp program for kids.


 * It happened on the parade grounds at the Citadel! How can it not involve the school? Backgammon 03:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Because it happened while the school was shut down for the summer, while cadets were on furlough, and under the supervision of a camp administrator; it involved the summer camp, the person was thrown in jail, and attempting to link it to The Citadel proper is malicious and inappropriate. Are you saying that The Citadel is now part military, part civilian, and part summer camp, too?


 * It was a citadel grad, on the citadel campus, and during the citadel summer boys camp...what does common sense tell you? Allotta123 00:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Military, Civilian or Both
THE CITADEL IS PART MILITARY/PART CIVILIAN. The Citadel's College of Graduate and Professional Studies students GET CITADEL DIPLOMAS AND WEAR CITADEL RINGS. Want more information on the program, CHECK OUT THE CITADEL's WEBPAGE [www.citadel.edu]. This diversity within the Citadel is what makes the school great and what makes it very competitive and similar to Texas A&M, Norwich, and Virginia Tech's Corps of Cadets. The CGPS graduates are CITADEL GRADUATES AND ARE JUST AS PROUD. ATHLETES AT THE CITADEL CAN BE MEMBERS OF THE CORPS OR PART OF THE NIGHT/DAY UNDERGRAD/GRAD PROGRAMS. The star quarterbacks for the last two years were civilians, and were just as proud as all the rest of THE CITADEL MEN AND WOMEN (military or civilian) BEFORE THEM. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Allotta123 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 15 September 2005   (UTC)
 * You, again, are incorrect. The diplomas and rings that CGPS grads get are NOT the same as those earned by CITADEL cadets... feel free to check that one out. And, again, you are incorrect that the Citadel mirrors Texas A&M, Norwich, or Virginia Tech.. those schools are worlds apart from The Citadel and VMI, which are the only similar schools. Please, feel free to be proud of your CGPS accomplishments, but do not confuse them with the pride that a Citadel grad has earned... it's just different; period. I would suggest making another article for the CGPS, instead of continually confusing it with The Citadel.


 * The Citadel is a great half military and half civilian school:
 * For example, just ask yourself: +
 * Is "The Citadel" in the name of both programs?.YES. +
 * Is the website the same for both programs? ...YES. +
 * Do both rings say "The Citadel" on them? ...YES. +
 * Do the diplomas say "The Citadel" on them ...YES. +
 * Do CIVILIANS and cadets play sports? ...YES. +
 * Why are you arguing this point when you know the facts? Backgammon 03:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC) +


 * I am not arguing a point, I am stating a fact. You seem hell bent on misleading those that would use this site to learn about The Citadel; it is NOT a half military and half civilian school. This is so simple. Civilians exist on the campus through the CGPS, which, for the tenth or eleventh time, is not the same thing. Again.. the diplomas are different, as are the rings (you tread on sensitive ground when you even come close to comparing the rings my friend). Civilians play on the school's sports teams through a loophole and are recognized to be a part of the CGPS, not The Citadel. If they were one in the same, then the CGPS would be called the Citadel, and the argument would be over, but of course, that's not the case. I have no problem with the CGPS; I think it does great things for the Low Country... but please, do not disrespect those of us that chose to take a road less traveled. Examples of your so called half and half schools can easily be seen at Norwich and Texas A&M, which are good schools, but are vastly different than The Citadel, which is a great point of pride. You will never, ever win this argument, as it simply does not hold up. I apologize for seeming stubborn, agitated, and persistent, but I and other Citadel graduates will not stand by while our beloved institution, into which we put our blood, sweat, and tears, is misrepresented. Once more, PLEASE stop this campaign of misinformation. How hard would it be to create a new article on your school, erasing any confustion with The Citadel? User:alum05


 * Your argument is silly and any "outsider" can see right through your attempts. If students play sports for "the Citadel," then they are part of "The Citadel." What part of that do you not understand?... + The Citadel's engineering graduates are in such demand that all who want to enter the work force have jobs well before graduation. Others go on to some of the most elite graduate programs in the country. Ray Foltz, '05, was one of five engineering students to win a highly competitive National Defense Science and Engineering Graduate Fellowship in 2005. The other winners included two from U. Cal. At Berkeley and one each from MIT and Stanford.


 * The words "The Citadel" do, in fact, appear on both rings and diplomas.


 * "The Citadel" offers both bachelor and master degrees...It's how your school is classified, sorry you don't like it. + Six cadets have received Fulbright Scholarships to study abroad since 2001. That is a larger number than any other college or university in South Carolina during this period.


 * YOUR SCHOOL has "military" in it's name and has a "CORPS OF CADETS," but also has a civilian side...PERIOD...If you don't like it, then maybe you should talk to your school and ask them to drop the civilian program. Backgammon 19:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * REAL SIMPLE: Both civilians and cadets play on the sports teams......half civilian/half military.


 * The school has a "Corps of Cadets" but the school also has civilians. P.S. The Citadel definitely has a great deal in common with Texas A&M, Norwich, and VA Tech...they all have civilians and cadets alike playing on their sports teams, attending classes, getting rings and diplomas from the school, and generally being proud of their school...just because you were in the Corps of Cadets at the citadel doesn't change the fact that the school has a civilian aspect to it. Backgammon 03:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC) +


 * If you believe that The Citadel and schools like Texas A&M are the same, then I respect that... but I do not recognize your right to pass off your misguided beliefs on people who do not know any better. I do not know how many times I can state that the diplomas and the rings are different and are distributed by different schools. I am proud of my school, and I am happy that you are proud of yours, just stop trying to put the two together, becuase they are completely different. I do not believe that the simple fact that the CGPS takes up office space on the campus qualifies anyone to say that they are one in the same. They are not, and if you had attended The Citadel, instead of the CGPS, you would know that. Be proud of your school, but do it on your own space, as it is not fair to those who do not know any better.


 * BOTTOM LINE: The citadel, college of graduate and professional studies rings and diplomas both have the words: "the citadel" on them. Civilians are in classes at the citadel...you all share classes. If civilians play on "The Citadel" sports teams and wear the jersey, it could be argued that they are a part of the school. They may not be in the "corp of cadets" but they are part of the school and this does in fact make the school a part civilian school with a very proud "corp of cadets." Simple FACT: The Citadel has a proud Corps of Cadets, but it is not 100% military cadets. Citadel graduates, like you Alum05, may wish the school was 100% military like West Point, VMI, Annapolis, Air Force, Coast Guard, or even the Merchant Marine Academy...but unfortunately for you, The Citadel is part civilian/part military. To Alum05, I say Take Care and good luck in your quest to spread half-truths and convince everyone else otherwise...Backgammon is signing off!!! Backgammon 19:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

The Citadel School of Education has received a $1 million Gear-Up grant to continue its long-standing work with at-risk middle school students.
 * Alright, Mr. or Ms. Backgammon... whatever you want to think is your business. As a graduate, my classmates and I were well trained in listening politely to those that do not know any better. You are, in fact, incorrect and misguided, but again, that is your choice, and your right. I and other graduates simply do not understand why you continue this, but it is a free country. Just know that I'm through debating your ignorance and countering your every comment. You are a nusance. I will, though, faithfully stand up for the facts regarding our institution, no matter what you do, and will of course prevail, as 160 years worth of truth is on my side. Next time, you should really read up on the facts or simply keep out of a discussion you obviously know nothing about. Finally, and maybe most importantly, try having some respect for those that choose to go down such a unique path at such a young age, and in a society that spits on the values that we hold dear. You have plenty to be proud of, I am sure, but please do not be a parasite on our pride, good name, and history that spans nearly two centuries.


 * Alright Mr. or Ms. Alum05, you need to check some important and basic facts on your school..."spans nearly two centuries"...not quite. Your school was moved around, shut down, then re-opened. Check again at how long your school has been in actual operation...Also, any normal person can see that the citadel, as a school, is truly half military/half civilian. Get over it and have a good day.......and good luck with your half military/half civilian sports teams....... Allotta123 00:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It really eats at me to hear someone spreading these ignorant opinions about my school. I would appreciate it if you would not present yourself as an expert on something that you so obviously know nothing about. The CGPS is simply a graduate school for people to get their masters'. I implore you, spend 9 monthes as a freshman at The Citadel. I promise you, many is the time I wished I had chosen a "civilian school" such as Texas A&M. While those guys were busy drinking beer and sleeping in late I was shining brass and getting up early for Saturday Morning Inspection. Half civilian/half military? I can promise you that you are very misinformed. So lets make this clear once and for all, there are NO civilian undergraduates at The Citadel. It sounds to me like you are simply trying to be malicious towards this school and I resent that. As for the comments about the ring, I would expect such comments from the ill informed. However, rest assured the ring I earned and the ring the CGPS grads wear are two completely different bands of gold. I didn't put four years into that institution in order to earn a ring that any civilian who takes four years of class can wear. When I see that ring on someones finger I know that they went through the same system I did, and you know what-- it produces good, honest people with integrity. From reading your posts I can see that you aren't interested in truths and only wish to promote disinformation. All I can say is that I deeply resent your remarks and I know without a doubt that we both know the real facts here. A proud member of the class of '06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.252.166.43 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 18 October 2005   (UTC)


 * Ok this is not that difficult of a concept to understand. The Citadel, is not.... is not half civilian half military! I am a grad, 2005, and I can honestly say I never had a class with one civilian ever.. Any civilians are part of the graduate program and there are very few athletes who are graduate students, and most of those who are are cheerleaders! And as has been stated before, the graduate school ring, which very few actually buy, is a completely different ring.. They are not part of the corp! and as a point of fact the graduate program is a joint program between the citadel and the college of Charleston, and most of its students study on college of Charleston property. As far as comparing ourselves to West Point, I wouldn’t dare, as the child and grandchild of West Point graduates I was urged to go to the Citadel so I could have an "old corp" education. I would add as well that I am dating a member of the Corp at VMI. The Citadel and VMI are almost identical in every way, but a world apart from Federal Academies which have the misfortune of being subject to congressional oversight which has made them weak and this has resulted in a overall lack of character in their corp which has led to incidents like the AF Academy sex scandal and the more recent religious scandals. Schools like The Citadel have been helping to form the backbone of this countries leadership both in the civilian world and the military since the creation of the state military academy system in the 1830’s. You are right on two points however; we have moved locations, from downtown Charleston to a point on the Ashley River. And we have been forced to close a few times… the first closure being during the reconstruction era when the Citadel was being occupied by Union forces, sorry not our fault, and we closed a second time for a very short time after the building burned down! Other then those two times we have been in continuous operation since 1843, 163 years…… so in closing you feel you have to berate my school , what’s wrong? Didn’t get accepted? Or Hell Week washout? ( Lco ElCid 05)

The above information is incorrect as a graduate of both the Graduate school and as a cadet some one needs to remove this information and see that real information is posted. It calls into question the whole project. Cadets and civilian students do NOT go to school together. There are night classes for the graduate students while cadets are into other activities. This page should be shut down unless this discussion is cleaned to reflect factual information.

Reagan quote
Did RR actually say "pension" rather than "penchant", or did the twit who put the quote here not know the difference? Too Old 02:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Nobody having answered my question, I conclude that the readers of this article, who I presume to include alumni, students, staff, and others particularly interested in The Citadel, also don't know the difference. Since I don't know whether Reagan actually said what he is quoted as saying, I will let it stand.  After all, it's nothing to me if the Citadel community displays its ignorance. Too Old 04:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Sir. I am a 97 grad and I am looking into the quote.  I had to go back to C-SPAN to get a copy and will keep you posted as to what was said.  Sorry for the delay I had to send in and purchase.[PA Civil War]


 * I contacted the Reference Librarian at The Citadel and he made a search of the Citadel Public Affairs Office, the Citadel Archives and Museum, and the Library, and found only a commencement speech by Reagan dated May 15, 1993, which does not contain the passage that appears in the article. I am therefor deleting deleting it.  If someone else has a different source, (s)he may reinsert it, with appropriate reeference. Too Old 08:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Too Old...you don't have to make this personal with your "ignorance" post. This is being researched.


 * To the anonymous commentator: I have researched it. See my comments just before yours. Too Old 22:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC) I apologize for my rude comment. Too Old 22:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reviewed the tape and could/did not find the above quote. I would vote to take it out for now as well. Hope this helps.  All grads seems like an '87 grad died on Tuesday in Iraq.  Just heard it up here on the news. [User:PA Civil War]


 * Too Old. If we take out the quote I would post the whole speech.  I found it to be point on about what it means to be a Citadel grad.  The "pass the rope" story sums up what we define as service.  Would you second this?  Thanks in advance for your time. [PA Civil War]

Update to Military vs. Civilian discussion
- The Citadel does not have civilian day students. We where never in classes with non-cadets in all our years (1983-1997) and have no idea where this would come from. They are allowed to take night classes with the College of Graduate and Professional Studies and are a part of our community and some of the primer students in the land. This is the case plain and simple. The rings and diplomas are also not the same. There was a mistake in the article the Corpse of Cadets did see action as a unit during the Civil War. All battle streamers reflect correctly actions undertaken by the school as single command. We enjoy the discussion here but must say that some of you have your facts wrong about the academic make up of the undergraduate population we can say this having been to Texas A&M, Norwich, and VMI in many capacities and exchange programs. VMI and the Citadel are sister schools. Both schools are almost mirror images of one another. Texas A&M and Norwich are both primer schools with a different mix of undergraduate student populations. Before commenting and for reference do the proper research via the following: The Citadel and the South Carolina Corps of Cadets (College History: South Carolina) (College History) by William H. Buckley In the Company of Men : A Woman at the Citadel by Nancy Mace, Mary Jane Ross Long Gray Lines: The Southern Military School Tradition, 1839-1915 by Rod Andrew Jr. The Young Lions: Confederate Cadets at War by James Lee Conrad Cadets in Grey: The Story of the Cadets of the South Carolina Military Academy and the Cadet Rangers in the Civil War by Gary R. Baker If you are not or have not spent time as a Cadet and KNOB and do not know what you are speaking about you should not comment on a school which has lost more grads in the war on terror then any other school in the country to this date (12/15/05). There are also large numbers of those who wear the RING serving right now in harms way. In honor to them and all the men and women serving this great country comment if you only know your facts. This information has been updated by members of the following classes ‘86 ‘95, ‘96, and ‘97.

"lost more grads in the war on terror than any other school in the country."
Are you guys kidding or what?! You citadel folks are hilarious! Check your facts before you write...Tac1 01:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC) Once more I will give to you the facts. Here is a list of Citadel Graduates lost in the War. [PA Civil War] I am in the process of checking the above facts. But see below for a listing of our graduates. http://citadel.edu/pao/newsreleases/war/taps.htm http://citadel.edu/pao/newsreleases/war/index.htm Before you go boasting about something like "lost more grads in the war on terror," check out the websites of USMA, USNA, and VMI. You people need to watch what you say! Please see if you can get a grip on your ridiculous remarks. Bulloh 01:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC) Understand your remark however we are not talking about USMA and USNA they are not military "schools". Not sure if it needs the tone you are using people are working to ensure these statments and it is not a "ridiculous remark". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.80.152.145 (talk • contribs) 13:11, 27 January 2006  (UTC) Please note the above web site does leave off some individuals including Shay USMC Force Recon? Any Grads have info? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.80.152.145 (talk • contribs) 13:23, 27 January 2006   (UTC) For a school to state "lost more grads in the war on terror" is a ridiculous remark. It is also a FALSE remark! The Citadel needs some assistance. Please see the site of a certain military school in VA. Until then, please watch what BS comes out of your mouths. signed, Orlando. Check out other sites before you spread false propaganda. As a military man, and as someone who has been in the current war several times, it makes me sick that grads from a somewhat military school would make such dumb (and false) remarks. Get a grip, and think about it before you guys speak again. How pathetic....Wrangler123 18:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Points of Pride
http://www.citadel.edu/r3/about/pride/index.shtml

Recent Accomplishments for the Military College of South Carolina The Citadel ranks No. 1 nationally in our peer group of public colleges in the percentage of students who graduate in four years. The Citadel's top ranking comes from the U.S. Department of Education's comparison of all public colleges whose entering students have average SAT scores between 900 and 1100. The Citadel's four-year graduation rate is 62.3 percent. The national average four-year graduation rate is 29 percent.

Newsweek magazine and the Kaplan College Guide named The Citadel one of America's 25 hottest colleges in its 2006 college edition.

The U.S. News rankings for 2006 recognize The Citadel in several different categories: The college rose to the No. 2 spot for top public universities in the South offering up to master's degree. For the sixth straight year, The Citadel School of Engineering has ranked among the top 50 undergraduate engineering programs in the nation for colleges that offer a bachelor or master degree, earning this year's No. 32 ranking. The Citadel ranked No. 7 for best master's universities in the South

The Princeton Review for 2006 placed The Citadel in its top tier of academic institutions according to an academic ranking that measures how hard students work and how much they get back for their efforts. The ranking considered such factors as hours students study outside of class, quality of the student body, class size, student assessment of professors and other resources.

The Princeton Review for 2006 named The Citadel School of Business one of the nation's 237 best business programs.

With more than 80 percent of its students returning each year, The Citadel enjoys one of the best retention records in the country.

Among South Carolina's public colleges and universities, The Citadel has the highest four-year graduation rate for athletes

During the 2004-2005 academic year, the 2000 cadets at The Citadel performed nearly 34,000 hours in community service projects assisting charitable and community causes in South Carolina's Lowcountry and across the state.

Last year, for the first time in history, the Citadel's Army ROTC program was named No. 1 in the region, edging out 124 other programs, including VMI, Norwich University and Valley Forge Military Academy.

The South Carolina Commission on Higher Education recognizes The Citadel as the only specialized four-year college in the state.

The Citadel has been designated as an essential Military College, and its ROTC detachments are authorized to offer commissions in the Army, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Navy. An average of 35% of graduating cadets are commissioned into military service following graduation.

Citadel alumni understand and accept the obligations of duty to their country and military service. Nine Citadel alumni have been killed during service in Iraq and Afghanistan, and more than 850 others have served or are currently serving in the conflict.

The Citadel is a teaching college with a student-faculty ratio of 15 to 1 with highly qualified faculty teaching all classes.

The Citadel's engineering graduates are in such demand that all who want to enter the work force have jobs well before graduation. Others go on to some of the most elite graduate programs in the country. Ray Foltz, '05, was one of five engineering students to win a highly competitive National Defense Science and Engineering Graduate Fellowship in 2005. The other winners included two from U. Cal. At Berkeley and one each from MIT and Stanford.

Six cadets have received Fulbright Scholarships to study abroad since 2001. That is a larger number than any other college or university in South Carolina during this period.

The Citadel Regimental Pipe Band is the only all-student college pipe band in the country. The pipe band was started by General Mark Clark in 1955.

The Citadel School of Education has received a $1 million Gear-Up grant to continue its long-standing work with at-risk middle school students.

The Citadel Reading Program has been working for 25 years to help at-risk middle school students improve their reading skills. In 2004, The Wachovia Foundation awarded The Citadel a substantial grant to continue its work with literacy training.

The Citadel School of Business Administration gives cadets and students in the College of Graduate and Professional Studies the benefit of professional mentors through a program that links more than 100 business professionals in the region with the cadets and students.

The Citadel is a national leader in the percentage of female students who are athletes. More than 50 percent of its female cadets compete on seven varsity teams -- an outstanding achievement given the fact that female athletics started in 1997.


 * Update Point of Pride Captain Paul B. Kopacz Class of 97 — Marine Corps —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.80.152.145 (talk • contribs) 13:34, 27 January 2006   (UTC)

Civilian vs. Military
PLEASE NOTE THAT VMI IS REFERANCED HERE AS it is IN THE YOUNG LIONS a book written by a VMI grad about both VMI and the Citadel in the Civil War. Also, you are wrong on all the above. No civilian walks in our barracks. We had two graduate students on our football team since they had four years of eligibility. You need to read the primary and historical source provided to educate your self. I have included here as well as below: PA Civil War —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 19:18, December 21, 2005

The Southern Military School Tradition, 1839-1915 by Rod Andrew Jr.

http://uncpress.unc.edu/chapters/andrew_long.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 18:57, December 21, 2005

I am a recent Citadel Graduate, class of 2005, and I am dating a member of the 1st class at VMI, and I hate to break it too you, but when you get down to the basics El Cid and VMI are the same school. I should know! I spent more then a few nights living in new barracks and buddy the biggest difference between VMI and The Citadel is that the Rat Line is about 3 to 4 months shorter then knob year, depending on when they break out that is. I find it odd that you seem to take this reality so offensively; I mean you’re the only one. I’ve eaten in your mess hall, swam in your pool, and smoked on the stoop, hell I’ve even gotten boned sneaking back out of Jackson sally port... oops I mean arch... get over it, you wear a gray cover, ours is white.... oh and New Market was cool, but try to remember who fired the first shots! ELCID05

Removed images
I had to remove some images from the article while we deal with copyright issues related to this post on the Administrator's Noticeboard. &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 23:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Fighting as a unit?
The Citadel fought as a unit see above books as reference. The best would be Cadets in Grey by Gary R. Baker. There where a host of other schools to do the same. The best story would be VMI's gallant charge during the Battle of New Market. Do not leave out LSU, Georgia, and the rest of the school (The Arsenal now South Carolina) that made up the UNIT of South Carolina cadets.


 * Please check your facts, the Citadel did not see action AS A UNIT. Having cadets or former students in various battles does not mean the school saw action as a unit.  (The only reason the school has battle streamers is because the South Carolina state legislature authorized it at a state (not federal) level.  Under Federal rules, the school WOULD NOT be allowed to carry those streamers.  Many schools across the country, both north and south, had students or former students participate in battle.  This does not mean the school saw "action as a unit."  Action as a unit means the school fought AS A UNIT in pitched combat...the citadel did not.  Tac1 02:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC).  Actually, the Citadel Academy and the Arsenal were formally organized as The S.C. Military Academy by Act of the Legislature on January 28, 1861, and The Corps of the two academies was formally designated the Batallion of State Cadets and made a part of the S.C. Military organization.  And This unit - The Batallion of State Cadets made up of all of the cadets at The Citadel and Arsenal did fight as an organized unit as Company A and Company B during the Battle of Tullifinny Creek December 7 through 9, 1864, suffering 8 casualties and one KIA.  VMI on the other hand only had upper class cadets at New Market - the rest stayed in the barracks.  VMI's bogus claim that it is the only school to fight "as a unit" is thus - bogus.


 * You should link to evidence to support your point, otherwise you're both just arguing needlessly. &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 05:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I have removed the following section from the article, as it is factually disputed, per Wikipedia Citation guidelines. Please work to resolve the dispute before re-adding the content. I am also going to re-format the citation in this sentence to follow Wikipedia citation style. Further, could you provide a specific page number for the book you reference, that relates to this assertion? Thanks, &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 05:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The Book (Baker, Gary R. Cadets in Grey. Lexington, South Carolina: Palmetto Bookworks. March 1st, 1990. ISBN 0962306509. ) itself goes by each battle streamer hence the whole book is relevant.  The Battle of Wappoo Cut is the largest set pace battle (largest casualty count) the cadets of the Citadel were in.  They were able to charge and take the rail way cut.  This would be referenced in the chapter "Wappoo Cut" while information regarding "The Star of the West" would be best referenced in that chapter.  Let me know what I can do short of scanning in the pages.  You are doing a great job here hats off. However, The Young Lions information is identified here, note the charge of the Citadel cadets at the battle of Wappoo Cut as cover art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 15:17, December 21, 2005

http://www.sc.edu/uscpress/2004/3575.pdf#search='South%20Carolina%20Military%20Academy%20in%20the%20Civil%20War'


 * PLEASE NOTE THAT VMI IS REFERANCED HERE AS it is IN THE YOUNG LIONS a book written by a VMI grad about both VMI and the Citadel in the Civil War. Also much primary source info below regarding the Stary of the West.  What more proof do I need? user: PA Civil War —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 16:14, December 21, 2005


 * While seeing action as a unit, members of the Corps of Cadets participated in eight engagements from 1861 to 1865. As a result of these services, The Citadel is authorized by a legislative act of the state to carry nine battle streamers earned during the Civil War:


 * Star of the West, January 9, 1861
 * Wappoo Cut, November 1861
 * James Island, June 1862
 * Charleston and Vicinity, July-October 1863
 * James Island, June 1864
 * Tulifinny, December 1864
 * James Island, December 1864-February 1865
 * Williamston, May 1865
 * Confederate States Army streamer (larger gray)


 * 1) - Baker, Gary R. Cadets in Grey. Lexington, South Carolina: Palmetto Bookworks. March 1st, 1990. ISBN 0962306509.

Thanks. &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 05:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Again, check the facts. "Star of the West" is a perfect example.  There were a couple of citadel cadets or former cadets serving in the battery which fired shots over the unarmed ship, and the citadel carries a battle streamer for this?!  That's humorous.  Again, this is not action "as a unit."  Where were the rest of the cadets?  And what exactly is "confederate states army streamer?  Who made that one up?  These guys really need to check their facts, and the authors they cite really need verification.Tac1 14:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't really understand what your issue here is. If I interpret you correctly, you assert that the Citadel did not serve as a unit during the campaign that the school carries the "Star of the West" ribbon for, am I reading you correctly? Please note that we have a cited link in the above sentence that I formatted, which counts as evidence supporting the assertion that the Citadel did fight as a unit. If you feel that the source cited is problematic, please explain why. You ask for fact checking, and I encourage you to help us with that activity br helping to locate resources of information that can help provide information. Thanks, &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 21:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * No sir you are wrong. All actions listed are actions in which the cadets fought as a unit.  I have given the proper reference in the update.  The proof I provide is 100% accurate and can not be argued.  See  # - Baker, Gary R. Cadets in Grey. Lexington, South Carolina: Palmetto Bookworks. March 1st, 1990. ISBN 0962306509.

See the following from the Citadel Archives: BATTLE STREAMERS--THE CITADEL FLAG By legislative act of January 28, 1861, the cadets at The Arsenal in Columbia and The Citadel in Charleston were made part of the military organization of the State of South Carolina. They were known as the Battalion of State Cadets and participated in the following engagements from 1861 to 1865. As a result of these services, The Citadel is authorized to carry nine battle streamers: 1. Confederate States Army (larger gray) 2. Star of the West, Jan. 9, 1861 3. Wappoo Cut Nov. 1861 4. James Island June 1862 5. Charleston and Vicinity, July-October, 1863 6. James Island June, 1864 7. Tulifinny December, 1864 8. James Island, December, 1864-February, 1865 9. Williamston May 1865 10. Larry Walker's beer party! May 2005 (Sources: General Orders No. 3, Office of the Attorney General, Columbia, S.C., 26 Oct. 1942; Oliver J. Bond, The Story of The Citadel, pp. 55-56. U430 .S57)

The following link gives the exact command structure: http://www.geocities.com/sc_seedcorn/TheCitadel.html

Also see: Long Gray Lines: The Southern Military School Tradition, 1839-1915 by Rod Andrew Jr.

The Young Lions: Confederate Cadets at War by James Lee Conrad

Thomas, John P. The History of the South Carolina Military Academy. Charleston, S.C.: Walker Evans & Cogswell, 1893. Reprinted in 1991 by Palmetto Bookworks, PO Box 11551, Columbia, SC 29211.

Bond, Oliver. The Story of The Citadel. Richmond, Va.: Garrett & Massie, 1936. Reprinted in 1989 by Southern Historical Press, Inc., 275 West Broad St., Greenville, SC 29602. Baker, Gary. Cadets in Gray. Columbia, S.C.: Palmetto Bookworks, 1989.

Also if you are from VMI The Young Lions does a great job on New Market. There is some confusion about two facts The Citadel had a company leave to form Troop F 6th South Carolina Calvary. These actions are not included in the battle streamers since they where not part of the “battalion of state cadets” command. The Unit was known as The Cadet Rangers and did good service in Virginia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 14:30, December 21, 2005 :YOU ARE WRONG SEE PRIMARY SOURCE INFORMATION ABOVE AND BELOW
 * See the above information and read the following I am looking for good primary sources on the The Battle of Tulifinny. However, The Young Lions information is identified here, note the charge of the Citadel cadets at the battle of Wappoo Cut as cover art.  SEE PRIMARY SOURCE IN Respectfully Disagree below.

http://www.sc.edu/uscpress/2004/3575.pdf#search='South%20Carolina%20Military%20Academy%20in%20the%20Civil%20War'

and Long Gray Lines The Southern Military School Tradition, 1839-1915 by Rod Andrew Jr.

http://uncpress.unc.edu/chapters/andrew_long.html


 * However, the facts are in black and white. Please take a look for yourself at the authors.  I have read many of the books cited and found it a great reference for all the cadet actions during the war. Many of them are still available on Amazon and like sites.  You are wrong however on the Star of the West.  There where only a few cadets detached to man the batery.  This was by order which is given in detail (along with the detachment command and control in G. Bakers Book).  Hence, Only Cadets were assigned to the battery as shown below in a primary source as well as some other work:

"The shots were fired by the Citadel Cadets, under command of Major Stephens, who has thus had the honor, which he so much coveted, of opening the impending conflict. Major Stephens is at the head of the State Military Academy, which occupies the Charleston Citadel. He is apparently about thirty-five years of age, with rather thin black hair, black and heavy beard, and large black eyes. He is about the medium size, of lithe form, with quick, nervous motions. His guns were directed at the steamer with scientific accuracy, and even the shot which failed to strike the ship fell very near her. Her flag was pulled down, and she immediately retreated. She was struck certainly three times, and perhaps five. The last shot which took effect was fired after she had turned to go out. The steamer was seen to shoot forward with a jerk the instant this shot struck her. Two balls were seen to strike her hull; one just forward of her wheel-house, the other upon the larboard quarter."

Above from Harper’s Weekly date January 26, 1861

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/civil-war-star-west-battle.htm

There is some visual referance to the story below from the first run primary source Haper's Weekly same date as seen above:

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/first-shot-civil-war.htm

Big Red

Civil War Use of "Big Red" "Big Red" was not the flag raised over Fort Sumter. It was flown over a seacoast battery in early 1861 manned by Cadets from the South Carolina Military Institute, better known as The Citadel. Devereaux Cannon, 9 June 1999

In early 1861, after South Carolina seceded from the United States, her military forces took possession of all military installations around Charleston harbor, except Fort Sumter. One of the smaller installations, or batteries, was manned by cadets from the South Carolina Military Institute (known as "The Citadel"). The flag flown over the battery manned by the Citadel cadets was a red field with the palmetto and crescent. These cadets had the distinction of having actually fired the first shots in what was to become the war. They fired warning shots at the steamer "Star of the West", which had been dispatched by U.S. President Buchanan to supply the garrison at Fort Sumter. The "Star of the West" turned back, avoided the opening of hostilities at that point in time.

The red flag with the palmetto and crescent has since been considered an unofficial flag of The Citadel. It is affectionately known as "Big Red", and the stickers seen are probably on vehicles belonging to Citadel cadets or their families.

Devereaux Cannon, 5 February 2000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 14:45, December 21, 2005

The Battle of Tulifinny
December 9, 1864 Tulifinny Creek. Citadel cadets joined with cadets from their sister academy, the Arsenal in Columbia, to form the Battalion of State Cadets. This was different from the Cadet Company (See above Cadet Rangers). They had been ordered to protect the Tulifinny trestle of the Charleston and Savannah Railroad. See the mural which depicts cadets repulsing the attack. North Reference Room Daniel Library

Primary Source listed along with info below: http://sciway3.net/clark/jasper/towns.htm

"Outnumbered five to one, a little band of South Carolina cavalry, infantry and Citadel cadets faced a Federal naval expedition which had advanced up Broad River and disembarked at Boyd’s landing (or Salvesberg, the local name). The enemy’s destination was Grahamville Depot; their real objective the destruction of the railway track according to Sherman’s orders. With seven guns, a well-built breastwork, and the superb strategy of Colonel Charles Jones Colcock, who commanded the Third Military District of the state, the little Confederate band inflicted on the invaders losses amounting to nearly 8oo in a few action-packed hours. Colonel Colcock was everywhere, according to other officers. He even enlisted a strong, blowing wind on his side, having his men to fire a field of broomstraw, so that the flames were hurled into the faces of the enemy at a critical moment. Reinforcements of Georgia Reserves arrived from Savannah hours later, under General Gustavus W. Smith, but the general refused to take over the actual command from one whose ability and success had proved so outstanding." Copyright ©2001, GRACE Fox PERRY, her heirs and assigns, all rights reserved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.169.43.2 (talk • contribs) 20:40, December 21, 2005


 * Again, the key words are "fought as a unit," and it seems you still don't understand... While all the minute references and instances provided by proud citadel graduates are interesting, we should not forget the more substantial contributions of students and former students from the Universities of Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, LSU, and many others who fought in many more battles than students from the South Carolina Military Institute-the Arsenal-the Citadel.  And by the way, Do you see ROTC cadets from those schools carrying battle streamers?  To the citadel folks who keep arguing these silly facts, have at it...post your half-truths and silly propaganda...Good day.Tac1 21:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Both of you! Stop! Please! Take a second to listen. It is good that you are discussing your differences here on the Talk page, that is what it is for. However, the rate of discussion here is getting a bit out of hand. Tac1, your posts are very negative in tone, please attempt to be a little more civil in your discussion. We are here to try and establish fact, not opinion. In order to do so, or to come close to doing so, we must look at sources and references. There has been some discussion and linking to sources, and that is a very very good thing. I will make an effort to examine the sources provided. I personally don't have any idea or opinion on whether or not the Citadel fought as a unit, but I will be happy to work with any sources either of y'all can bring to the table. 63.169.43.2, please consider signing up for an account. It's very easy, and it would make communicating with you infinitely easier. Also please sign your Talk page posts, by typing four tildes, like so: ~ . Further, please try to slow down the rate at which you post comments. You can use the Preview button to look at the text you are about to post, to see if it is to your liking and says what you want to say. Please also, both of you, try to keep your discussions threaded and logical. Use the ":" symbol to indent, and please place new section headers at the bottom. 63.169.43.2, you recently made 27 posts in a row to the Talk page, jumping all around the page posting information, making comments, than re-editing your comments, in various places. This makes it very confusing to follow the discussion, which is why I ask you to A. post more carefully and B. post more orderly and C. sign your posts. That will make it easier for me to follow the discussion and study the evidence you are providing, and thank you very much for working to provide evidence to support your assertions. Lastly, please don't edit the article right now, let's hash this out here on the Talk page before we make edits to the article. I look forward to continuing this discussion, thanks. &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 22:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll post my last comments... Key words again are "fought as a unit in battle."  As a military man, I can assure you that what the citadel folks are trying to say is that they had cadets fight in battles, and that is fine.  The citadel had cadets fight in battles, and that is not being disputed.  "Fighting as a unit" is different altogether.  Dozens of schools had multiple students fight in various battles in the Civil War, that was the nature of the war.  Sorry for being heated (I'm a South Carolinian myself) but I continually see citadel folks latch onto other schools in virtually every regard, and they are definitely stretching the truth here.  It's just plain "cheezy!"  Take care and good luck getting this resolved...Tac1 00:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * No reason to be sorry for being heated. I enjoy your points.  However, please take a look at The Charge of the Citadel Cadets at Tulifinny, December 7, 1864.  This painting was done by David Humpherys Miller.  It can also be seen as the 12th picture in Cadets in Grey: The Story of the Cadets of the South Carolina Military Academy and the Cadet Rangers: by Gary Baker.  I am not in any way trying to latch onto your school.  I am just trying to point to some good information regarding Civil War history.  I have not made such postings on the VMI site, which is a wonderful site.  So not sure why we are not talking about the information I have provided.  It is less a discussion about great events as a bashing of The Citadel.  I would be more than happy to send off a copy of The Young Lions (free of charge) or any other books noted above.  The Young Lions is a great work and goes into great detail about the service of the schools you talk about above.  I continue to work for the Tri-Services so do understand  what you are talking about. To call us just ROTC is something that can be said about your school as well. If there is info out there about the history of service by Cadets we should explore that even if it is in another posting (I have not seen any info about the Confederate Naval Cadets to date on the web).  I am not trying to take anything away from what was done at The Battle of New Market.  I have been there many times to study the movements of and do understand the role played not only there but in the "Valley" as well. Thanks for the great outlet for all this past years reading. [PA Civil War]