Talk:The Civil Wars

How They Met
Do we really need four references for how the duo met. I added in the part about Gloriana but that added in yet another reference. Maybe there is one reference that covers it all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.97.215 (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

White
As White doesn't have his own article, shouldn't we have more about his background ? -- Beardo (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing up this point. We have to be careful to stay on topic and keep in mind that the topic is not White or Williams but the band TCW. The fact that White does not have his own article is not a justification for including off topic info in this article. Why not just create an article for White if he is notable?--—Keithbob • Talk  • 15:40, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

keithbob - I think that is what Beardo meant was to create another article for White —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.20.23.2 (talk) 21:04, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Now add to it. See John Paul White.Trilobitealive (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Extended Plays
Why does the "Tracks in the Snow" extended play keep getting deleted from the EP section? The download link is no longer active, but the referring site for downloading the digital EP still exists, as do Youtube audio recordings:

http://www.newreleasetuesday.com/albumdetail.php?album_id=9810 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiGyRAhpgQo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkF1TbcihE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.158.1.176 (talk) 18:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Fan POV tag
The article needs clean up for fan POV. I have done quite a bit but it needs more. It contains an over abundance of trivial details and off topic information that is fan oriented and not encyclopedic. Let's work together and take this article to a higher standard. Thanks.--—Keithbob • Talk  • 16:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Removed Videos
Today I removed several videos and here are the reasons why per WP:EL: 1) WP is not a collection of links or URL's, its not a place to link to a random selection of YouTube videos on a certain subject. 2) The vids I removed were published on YouTube by individuals who do not own the copyrights to those TV programs. WP does not participate in copyright infringement Lastly, Civil Wars performed, but unlike their official music videos (published on their official YouTube channel) they did not create the videos for their TV performance and therefore these videos, even if legit sources can be found, should not be listed as publications or creations of CW.--—Keithbob • Talk  • 18:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Concerns about possible WP:COI, WP:SOCK and WP:PEACOCK
The #1 contributor on this article (I am number 2) is a single purpose account USER:Sensibilitymusic. Sensibility Music is the record company for The Civil Wars, which is owned by band member Joy Williams and her husband. Many other edits have been made by the single purpose account user IP's (68.52.77.131) and (174.50.223.147) that originate from Nashville (home of Joy Williams and Sensibility Music). My issue with some of the editing here is the addition and re-addition of non-encyclopedic content. Some examples: I was noticing that too; way too much detail. This is not supposed to be a blog of every activity they do. Would you expect to see such activities listed in a regular encyclopedia? No. BollyJeff  &#124;  talk  03:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "According to Joy Williams "I had no idea what I was walking in to......In Nashville, it's not uncommon to harmonise with someone but what was strange was that when he started singing it was like I knew where he was going to go before he went there."--What encyclopedic info bout the band is provided here? Answer: none. Yet it has been placed in the article twice despite my removal.
 * There is a paragraph for every month that the band has existed. If they breathe, it gets included in this article.
 * Article text says: "In June, they attended The White House and performed at the Ford's Theatre Gala honoring Morgan Freeman and Elie Wiesel."
 * Source says: "Highlights include appearances by host Scott Bakula, soprano Anna Christy, musical duo The Civil Wars, R&B icon Bettye LaVette, actor and vocalist Matthew Morrison, and 1776 cast members Robert Cuccioli, Bobby Smith and others." No other mention of The Civil Wars appears anywhere in this primary source (the theater). Yet we have a sentence about it. New editors may not realize that Wikipedia is written in summary style and we don't include every detail of the life of the band in an article. I don't want to chase new editors away, I just want to help them to understand the procedures here. If you are a new editor and are working on this article please take a little time to look at the policies I have cited in the title of this thread. If you have questions or concerns please feel free to ask either here or on my user page. I want us all to collaborate and work together. Welcome to the project. Cheers!--—Keithbob • Talk  • 00:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added a fan POV tag per the comments above. --—Keithbob • Talk  • 19:38, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It as removed, but I added different one concerning WP:Recentism and WP:Proseline. BollyJeff  &#124;  talk  16:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have re-added the Fan POV tag, because 1)there was no consensus to remove it. 2)nothing had been done to resolve the issues discussed above 3)it was removed by the seemingly single purpose IP who keeps adding something every time the duo breathes. I'm starting a new thread in case the IP wants to discuss it.-- — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Fan POV and Recentism tags
These tags have been placed on the article because there is too much emphasis being given to minor and recent details of the bands history. There seems to be a consensus on that on the talk page here so far. If others would like to join the discussion. Please feel free. What needs to be done in my opinion is the sections called 2011 and 2012 need to be summarized and cut down to about half of their current size. Album releases and music awards are significant events in the life of a music act. However, adding a sentence each time the group does an interview or performs at a new venue creates undue weight and fan pov. For further insight please read WP:UNDUE and WP:PEACOCK--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The article reads like a resume. Its an almost day to day list of things they did. The article needs a re-write to summarize their accomplishments and eliminate the "list of events" feel of this article.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 15:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Elephant in the Room
Shouldn't somebody be writing about the elephant in the room, namely that the band has broken up, the two of them aren't even speaking now, and the unspoken possibility is that these two married (to others) people fell in love with each other and nuked their personal lives? (I mean, read the liner notes to the latest album, not to mention the lyrics to just about every song they ever wrote together.) This is legitimately encyclopedic, it's not prurient, and the encyclopedic interest in this stuff would dwarf that of the "resume facts" currently on the page. Hey, if they're writing about it, we can too. I'm not sufficiently in the area (and too chicken) to write it myself, but it seems like the article as it stands still has Lincoln watching the play and we're just waiting for the drama reviews. 97.124.108.17 (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They have not officially broken-up. They are on some sort of hiatus, but they have made no clear announcement of either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, the sources specifically say "haitus" and "at this time". --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:07, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think the issue is "hiatus" versus "broken up." That's but a wart on the elephant's trunk. 97.124.97.207 (talk) 06:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that unless you have a source you should not discuss anything. I don't feel like getting sued by the artists or their management. So once again, unless you have a reliable source to back your innuendo up, drop it. Now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I already said I'm not going to be the one to do it, and surveying the non-groundswell of support (or, groundswell of non-support), I think you get your wish, Walter. 97.124.116.91 (talk) 09:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Walter's comment is a bit strong but I do agree with inclination to accurately represent the sources per WP policies.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 20:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

How about a nice cup of STFU Walter Görlitz? Now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:F0D:5600:F812:330F:4987:73A1 (talk) 18:40, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure. Do you have a source for that? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:58, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Clean up tags
I'm in the process of organizing and summarizing the article content so it doesn't read like a diary or resume as indicated by the tags on the article. Any input or assistance in welcome.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:02, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I just did a complete rewrite of the article, which was (as pointed out above) a resume/diary that was out of date. KennyFromSouthPark (talk) 18:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Origin of quote that inspired band name
I recently attempted to add the true source for the quote that inspired the group's name, which is believed to be by 19th century British writer and Free Church of Scotland minister Ian Maclaren, unlike how it mentions that Joy Williams believed it was by Plato, which is a common misconception. It was undone here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Civil_Wars&type=revision&diff=968048702&oldid=968041248 I believe that the true origin of the quote is important, as leaving it without it is tantamount to misinformation. In this article, it mentions that Jem Finch mistakenly calls the Alabama education system the Dewey Decimal System, and correctly points out that it is really a system to organize library books. DeathTrain (talk) 23:52, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The origin of the quote is not important, but the quote itself is. Williams states she's not certain who the originator of the quote was, so it's really not germane to include that part. If it wasn't enough for The New York Times author, or the editor to fact-check it, we should not either. And there is no source, reliable or otherwise, to support the claim it originated with Maclaren. Indeed, he may have been quoting an earlier source. I would suggest changing it to
 * Looking for a name for the project, Williams came up with the Civil Wars, which is not related to any historical battle, but rather is based on the quote "be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle". Williams says, "as I was thinking about the music we make, that sense of battle seemed applicable."
 * It alleviates the problem altogether. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I did find https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/29/be-kind/ that doesn't really settle whether it originated with Maclaren, but it seems to favour that option. It's still not clear if he was quoting an earlier source. I found others that attribute it to Philo. Ultimately, trimming the uncertain attribution is easier than editing in an unsupported claim. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I never argued that it was by Maclaren, only that it is believed to be by him. I guess that could work, as my main problem is how leaving the quote where Williams mentions that she believes it was said by Plato intact would make most readers also believe it was by Plato. However, other groups such as Bad Brains, Dirty Rotten Imbeciles, Megadeth and Metallica, go fairly into detail on the origins of the name, and even mention who they got the name from. (Bad Brains-a Ramones song) (Megadeth: a pamphlet by Alan Cranston), (Metallica: Ron Quintana), (DRI-Kurt and Eric Brecht's father). This is a specific, and relatively well-known quote. DeathTrain (talk) 14:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll make that edit then, and there's no need to ping me. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Since you haven't done so yet, I did it myself, with some minor changes. DeathTrain (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't make the change because I wanted acceptance from you. Looks good. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)