Talk:The Culinary Institute of America

Expansion
This page needs expanding as it is an American educational institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Destitute (talk • contribs)

Statistical updates
Hi Editors, I'm Robin, here as part of my work for Beutler Ink on behalf of The Culinary Institute. I have a request to update some of the basic statistics and make a few other minor changes in the article.

I propose changing:

In the infobox
 * The founder parameter to "founders" and adding Frances Roth and Katharine Cramer Angell to the list of founders - ✅ I also revised the text. No sources mention the New Haven Restaurant Association. The Yale source calls the founding entity the New Haven Restaurant Institute. STEM info  (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The chairman to John C. Metz Jr. to reflect recent changes as supported by this source
 * ✅ STEM info  (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The number of academic staff to 197; number of undergrads to 3,005 (Fall 2022); number of postgrads to 119 (Fall 2022), all based on this National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) report
 * ✅ STEM info  (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

In the Faculty section:
 * The first sentence to read "As of Fall 2022, the school had 130 full-time and 67 part-time faculty members." per the NCES link
 * ✅ I changed the wording to indicate that the source for the faculty demographics is the school's own web directory. STEM info  (talk) 02:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

In the Admissions section:
 * The Princeton Review selectivity rating to reflect the current number of 75 out of 99 per the updated report
 * The applications received to 1,887 in fall 2022, with 95% accepted, per NCES
 * The SAT range of accepted students being 930 to 1200 and ACT composite range being 17 to 26 per this report from College Board
 * ✅ In your recommended text, you named a ref that I can't find anywhere else. You also wrote that the ACT and SAT scores are in this report, but it clearly says not available. I instead used the Princeton Review report, but clarified it that those are numbers CIA self-reported to the Review. I removed the unsourced 2016 transfer data.  It doesn't seem important.  STEM info  (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

In the Enrollment section:
 * Enrollment to 3,005 undergrads (415 transfers) and 119 graduates; 95% of students being enrolled full time per the NCES
 * 18% of students being from New York and 12% of students being international per the NCES
 * 82% of students being 24 or younger (replacing the sentence "The student body has an average age of 22 years") per the NCES
 * Average GPA being 3.0 and 68% of students living on campus per Princeton Review
 * Replacing the second paragraph with the following, which is more up to date
 * ✅ I learned a lot doing these edits. There were list defined references in the table that I deleted. Those had to be removed from the references or a ref error shows up. Please also include the references in the requested change section, rather than just a ref name, so the reflist talk section doesn't come up with a number and letters and nothing else. It makes it easier to check the refs, particularly if they are being used incorrectly. You can test your future text requests in your sandbox, to make sure the requests won't cause any cascading problems, such as with undefined ref names or stray defined refs that are unused. I also noticed when I went to close this request that you closed it before it was done. It's done now.  STEM info  (talk) 01:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)


 * @STEMinfo I've learned a fair bit too. Thanks for your patience with this. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for those stray references in the future. BINK Robin (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

As of 2024, the school offered certificates in culinary arts; associate degrees in baking and pastry arts and culinary arts; bachelor's degrees in food business management, hospitality management, applied food studies, and culinary science, as well as culinary arts and baking and pastry arts degrees for transfer students; and master's degrees in culinary arts, food business, Sustainable food systems, and wine and beverage management.

Please let me know what you think! Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 15:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The edit backlog is getting long. It would speed things up if you posted the actual text you want added.  See my draft doc for the TextDiff suggestion. User:STEMinfo/COI_edit_requests_for_novices  STEM info  (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to provide the request in that format! I'll break it up just a little because I think it will be easier to look at.


 * Infobox

This makes some statistical updates and updates the current chairman.


 * Faculty (note, I made some additional tweaks to this part of the request describing faculty composition)

This makes some statistical updates, offers a clearer timeframe, as well as offers some updated language on the current faculty composition to better reflect the CIA's current faculty.


 * Admissions

This makes some needed statistical updates and removes an outdated table for which there is no data to bring it up to date. I'd also question if editors think it is necessary to include the College Board Selectivity Rating, but will defer to the community's thoughts on that. If the selectivity rating is removed, the box below has the updated text.


 * Enrollment

This removes a table that has no data to update it, and otherwise updates statistics and degree offerings, mirroring the current language as closely as possible. The templates don't want to play nicely with the tables, so I've separated out the updated table below.


 * That should cover it. Thanks for taking a look! BINK Robin (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The tables really get screwed up with the templates. Instead of posting the whole infobox, just post the lines that change. And the before and after prose isn't just changing numbers - you rewrote a bit also. I'll revisit later.  STEM info  (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You know, I could have made those prose changes more prominent. That was an oversight on my part. Below is a text diff of just the lines that I'd like to update in the Infobox. As for the rest, I can request those changes separately if you like. Thanks for your patience here. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

BINK Robin (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ FYI that you still had Jon Luther's name in the requested text.  Also, you might want to let them know that an old indexed but inaccessible otherwise page on their web site still says Luther is Chairman. See this link.  STEM info  (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I’ll pass your note along. I’ve marked this request as answered and will revisit the enrollment and admissions changes later on. Cheers! BINK Robin (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Criticism section
Hi editors, as part of my work with The Culinary Institute of America, I am requesting changes to the Criticism section of the article. Per WP:STRUCTURE and WP:NOCRIT, I think the section should be redistributed into the History section at the appropriate places in the timeline to improve article neutrality and balance.

I'd also be curious for editors' thoughts on the content itself. I think the paragraphs on the 2008 complaints are WP:TMI and contain some details related to L. Timothy Ryan that need qualification per WP:BLPSTYLE, in particular I think adding the word "alleged" regarding his leadership style is important, because sourcing does not offer concrete evidence of a rather serious charge. Additionally, I think that it is important to include Ryan's response to the allegations and his analysis of why things escalated the way they did. Student walkouts are also pretty typical on college campuses and I don't believe they warrant separation into a criticism section. Overall, I think these paragraphs could be tightened up a fair bit with these changes in mind.

The paragraph regarding CCA protests is also over-detailed and the way it is written is a bit confusing. I also think that change to the way any institution is staffed is pretty routine and doesn't seem like it would be major or critical history. The protests were limited to those whose positions were eliminated but didn't extend beyond that, and I think that is pretty routine and a case of WP:NOTEVERYTHING.

Finally, I'd argue that the final paragraph of the current Criticism section contains a significant overabundance of information that is not directly relevant to the CIA as well as a phrase that pretty clearly seems to be WP:OR ("soon after the Weinstein effect began and because of it"). I think there is an opportunity to trim it significantly to keep the content focused on the CIA and keep the article WP:ONTOPIC.

I have created a draft in my user space showing all of what I hope to accomplish and a diff that specifically shows the changes in position and the textual changes that I hope we can use as a starting point.

would you be interested in reviewing this request? I did not use TextDiff because that wouldn't really work to show the changes in position and text but hope the diff I linked above explains it better. Cheers BINK Robin (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * thank you for taking a look at this request and making the changes you made. Sdkb, I saw your note about moving the section into "History". With the edits that have been made, would any of you feel comfortable with merging the remaining "Criticism" section into the appropriate places in the "History" section, in line with WP:NOCRIT? BINK Robin (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it would be fine to merge the the criticism content into appropriate sections. You can also delete the photo of the demonstration, since the demo was pretty small and the attention it draws is, in my opinion, UNDUE. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Given that our capacity of photos is more constrained than our capacity of sources, DUE doesn't apply in quite the same way. We want the most relevant/due photo for a given section, but if the best-quality photo depicts only a minor event, it can still be a good option/better than nothing. Readers do not expect images to be DUE in the same way as text; they just expect them to be representative.
 * Therefore, I'd hesitate to remove the photo unless we have a better option available. I'd note for BINK Robin that you have the opportunity to influence our calculus by providing us with high-quality options for the history section uploaded to Commons. The best options are those that depict historical events that happened at the school, not just buildings (which are better for the campus section, although we welcome good images of those too).  Sdkb  talk 16:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)