Talk:The Dark Knight Strikes Again

Hawkboy?
No paternity test in here jsut more info... Which Hawkman was killed by Luthor in this continuity? That is... Whose death does this Hawkboy wants to avenge? There's like just too many too much Hawkman's for the way the data is presented... Undead Herle King (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Image content
No reason to delete this... it just had a malformed image tag. Andre 04:37, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree now. Before, it was ONLY a malformed image tag with no actual content whatsoever -Frazzydee 04:38, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Still doesn't have any content. Except for the picture, there's even less content than a B-Movie Bandit substub.  If the guy can't contribute anything beyond the fact that this is a graphic novel, this doesn't belong here, IMO. - Lucky 6.9 04:59, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * This could be a very good article (if more was added by someone who'd read the graphic novel). I was a comic book collector when Batman: The Dark Knight Returns came out and it was huge, I would imagine that in the comic book world this one would be too. The only reason this should be deleted would be if it's content were merged in with Frank Miller. I say keep it! Kevin Rector 05:09, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly agree with you. If we deleted all the short stubs that popped up on Wikipedia, they would never have the chance to grow into what they are today.  As I said in the summary when I removed the cfd tag: If anybody thinks this article should be deleted, then please add it to VFD.  There are obviously different opinions out there. -Frazzydee 05:12, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether it's encyclopedic or not. All I know is that it isn't a cfd, and being the relative inclusionist that I am I would vote to keep it on VFD. If anyone wishes to list it though, be my guest. Andre 05:42, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Basically I agree with Frazzydee. Andre 05:43, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Looks good now. It's off to a nice start, but I still think that the onus needs to be on the original poster to contribute more than the fact that we're talking about a book. - Lucky 6.9 06:08, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Considering the level of info added now, I'm removing the notability template tag. Kevin Rector 17:56, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

Final paragraph makes no sense
Since I've never read the book, I can't correct it, but hte final paragraph as it stands makes absolutely no sense.


 * I've updated the synopsis after rereading my copy the other day; enough extra info? I've left out a couple of plot devices while still summarising the main story. Guybrush 00:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Additional Controversy
I like this section, but I've got two points:
 * the heading is vague and seems non-encyclopedic
 * maybe Miller's contribution to AARGH (Artists against rampant government homophobia) should be mentioned, as well as his homophobic themes in other comics (if the nazi gays in the original Dark Knight Returns, and in Ronin and Give me liberty can be interpreted as such). This topic is also addressed in 300. Maybe this should be in Frank Miller rather than in an article about a particular book. Sunnan 01:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Just saw that this text is already in Frank Miller. Don't know what to do now. Sunnan 01:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I have an edited copy but I don't think it necessarily follows that Batman and Catgirl are going to embark on a sexual relationship in TDKSA. Dick Grayson calls her "the daughter he (Batman) never had" and Batman agrees with Dick's judgement on their relationship. Where does Batman declare his "sexualised" love? He certainly declares love but it is never explicitly "sexualised". Miller in an interview in a book of critical expositions on the Batman (can't remember the title but it was many years prior to TDKSA) actually described Batman as essentially asexual. He devotes all his energies, including his sexual energies, into his quest for justice. Miller notes that this is why most Batman stories with romance are weak. Miller contrasts him with the Joker as an individual who is almost entirely sexualized. Furthermore, where does it say Dick Grayson is gay in the Dark Knight Strikes Back? Certainly Miller has used gay serial killer themes before (e.g. his rendition of the Joker in TDKR) but I wasn't sure Dick was. Batman's gay-bashing isn't obvious to me either. He is definitely insulting, marked with condecension and false affection/maternalism to Dick but his insults don't seem specifically homophobic, but then perhaps I'm not up to speed on the latest phrases. Personally I judge the interpretations on this page as POV because they seem to be more based on what someone read into the text than what was actually written. That doesn't mean they're wrong of course, they just don't seem adequately substantiated. Panlane --82.38.227.22 13:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The comments have been removed from the Frank Miller page because they are POV, or highly speculative at best, either way it's something to be edited on this page. Logan1138 14:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I am deleting the section that refers to the homosexual tendencies of Robin and Batman. It is very speculative and not factually based.Fmandog85 00:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the name of the article was okay...
...but everything else is a disaster. Practically everything is uncited. I don't want to see this article dismantled due to uncited statement removal. It appears that just one external source is being referred to, but none of it - and I am almost being literal here - is cited. I'll check back in a week, to see what sort of improvement has edited in. If not, a lot of this article may be going the way of icecubes in Hell. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  00:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The homosexual overtones
Appear to have been a whole cloth fabrication of whoever placed the statemetns in the article. Having re-read the 3-issue set twice to be sure, it is clear that when Robin/Grayson tells Bruce he loves him, it was from a discarded child to a parent figure. Granted, that's my OR interpretation, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The statements about the implied homoxuality go bye-bye. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  08:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Moved section here
Giving folks here a chance to cite the material properly, turn it from bullet points into prose. It cannot go back to the article in its present state:


 * Trivia
 * The holographic puppet-President, "Rick Rickard," is a throwback to Prez Rickard, the teenage President who was elected via a constitutional amendment. Ironically, the original Prez was essentially a super-President, loved by all during his term and then (in the later 'The Sandman' story "The Golden Boy") suddenly vanishing from the face of the Earth, becoming immortalized in the process; a stark contrast to Miller's stereotypical suave but non-existent puppet.


 * At one point during the chaos at the end of the book an "orphanage" is blown open and hundreds of misshapen children escape who are very similar in visual and dialogue description to the "wireheads" from Miller's "Martha Washington" series of comic books.


 * During the last part of the story, one of Miller's characters uses several throwing stars shaped like swastikas. The same weapon was used by his character Miho in the Sin City novella, The Big Fat Kill. The weapon is also used in the film version of Sin City.


 * The idea of a Robin becoming a new Joker had previously been explored in the animated film Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. Another former Robin, Jason Todd, took up an identity which the Joker had previously held; the Red Hood.

- Arcayne   (cast a spell)  08:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed Sections
The following sections were partly removed from the article before being restored. I've since removed them them to here. This is a compromise to wholesale deletion; the remarks need to be cited and referenced before they can be included back into the article. I have a feeling that they all came from one or two articles, and that isn't enough for the space they are being allocated.


 * Analysis


 * Political Themes
 * The graphic novel contains caricatures of several prominent members of the first administration of President George W. Bush, including John Ashcroft, Ari Fleischer, and Donald Rumsfeld. The president is revealed to actually be a hologram controlled by Lex Luthor, a satirical commentary on the controlled media image of modern politicians, as well as the common perception that Bush is somehow subservient to either Vice-President Dick Cheney or to the "corporate elites".


 * The general public is depicted as ignorant and childish, varying between condemning the superheroes, and demanding that they save them from evil. Many of the characters have strong political views, such as Green Arrow, a Marxist revolutionary, and the Question, a radical libertarian. Green Lantern quotes Batman as saying that the superheroes "have to be criminals".


 * Superman also comes to agree with him at the end of the novel. He sets about destroying military gunships and feels good about it. Although he still cherishes the memory of his human parents, Superman decides that their insistence that he respect human life, law and authority is wrong. In fact, it is his own daughter who persuades him that a Man of Steel should be allowed to feel above the mere humans rather than just serve them.


 * Batman also says that he has been ignoring the real problem, going after petty criminals while the real monsters rose to government power.


 * In sum, the novel contains themes of individualism, personal freedom and advocates a strong ethical viewpoint, rather than modern, relativist views of right and wrong.


 * The graphic novel's conclusion can be interpreted as anti-democratic. Superman asks his daughter, "What shall we do with our world?"  In other words, Luthor's dictatorship is replaced by a non-democratic oligarchy of heroes from the Silver Age of DC Comics.


 * As a Satire of the Super Hero Genre
 * The Dark Knight Strikes Again can also be viewed as Miller's satire of the very 'grim & gritty' movement which he helped set into motion with Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. He parodies various trends that were abundant in making post-1980s comics more 'realistic' and 'adult' such as costume changes, cybernetic limbs, and extreme violence. Miller himself, on the recent re-release of the 1989 Batman movie, refers to the direction comics have taken since DKR as "stupid."


 * The book can also be seen as Miller's direct rebuttal to another graphic novel which satirized similar trends in the superhero genre, Kingdom Come. Where Kingdom Come has a more optimistic perspective on DC's heroes and superhero comics generally, Miller is far more cynical. (Dark Knight Strikes Again raises the Superman/Wonder Woman romance that featured in Kingdom Come, including WW's pregancy.)


 * A key theme is Superman's transition from his foster parent's morality to a more Nietzscheian sensibility. This is because of Lara, who convinces him that he is above man's rules and ethics (a direct reference to the Nietzscheian theory of the uber-mensch and to Superman's origins). Much like Superman, Batman has also made a transition in terms of ethics (cheering on the Hawk's murder of Luthor).


 * One of the themes is the older generation (Batman, Superman and the Flash) "giving the torch" to the younger generation (Carrie Kelly, Hawkboy and Lara). For example, it is Kelly who comes up with the idea of utilizing the Superchicks concert to create a revolution, and Lara who destroys Braniac. However, it is also implied that this generation has a different morality and code of ethics, as many younger heroes kill or are willing to, such as the son of Hawkman killing Luthor (to Barry Allen's horror) and Lara's destroying Braniac. Notably, it is Lara who suggests that it would be better to rule the humans, as they are incapable of ruling themselves (a suggestion similar to Nietzsche and also to Watchmen).


 * Another view is that Miller has spent so long on his creator-owned series Sin City, it has caused him to use that style of writing as his default mode of storytelling. One of the major criticisms of his latest Batman project, All Star Batman and Robin, is that it reads more like a Sin City story than a Batman book.

- Arcayne   (cast a spell)  15:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The delayed third issue
There probably should be a mention about the delay of the third issue. The third issue was delayed for months without explanation by either DC Comics or the creative team. While I have no proof, I recall on the DC Comics forum speculation that since the first two issues were panned by both critics and readers that DC forced Frank Miller and his team to reformat issue three to a more standard layout. Again, pure speculation but it was an incredibly unusual that it was delayed for so long, so long, in fact, that people in the DC forum began drawing their own version of the final issue. It was very strange. - Throw 10:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting. We can't include it without citation, though, and forums are the absolutel worst place to seek citable information. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  23:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

A new spin
This section reads like WP:SYNTH, using a few facts from two different series by the same author and trying to work out what looks like a alternate history of how Grayson went crazy in TDKSA. ThuranX (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  21:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The riddler
should he be added to the Characters section? one can safely assume he is in the book. when they go to Arkham Asylum one inmate says the ridders catchphase "riddle me this".--Bone Panther (talk) 07:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * We could, but since it hasn't come out in any cited material that the utterance came from the Riddler, it would be OR for us to do so. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  01:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
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C-Class rated for Comics Project
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Should there be a critical reception section?
I mean Frank is a big name in comics, his stuff usually gets a big share of attention, should the reception of critics and the public be listed somewhere at the end? With a few quotes and stuff like that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.37.96.53 (talk) 08:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Feel free to put it.--173.71.5.173 (talk) 01:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Batman and Grayson
This section seems excessively long. It is the second-longest section of the article, but the plot point is a minor one that doesn't come into focus until the final few pages of the last issue. It might be possible to integrate it into the summary, or shorten it as part of a broader "themes" or "analysis" section. Further, beyond the fact that it focuses perhaps a bit too much on ASB&R, what is with the absurdly long comparison with Batman Beyond? That's trivia, and it doesn't deserve such attention.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Removed sources
I've removed the following ISBN references because they are unconventionally wikilinked; I'm leaving them here in case they're useful for referencing. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 22:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The series has since been published as hardcover and paperback

Removed text
I removed the following section per WP:COATRACK—it's largely irrelevant to this article and probably belongs in either Batman or Dick Grayson. I hesitate to dump it into those articles because the standard of writing is so poor. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Batman and Grayson
The Dark Knight Strikes Again also explores the relationship between Batman and his original Robin, Dick Grayson.

In The Dark Knight Returns, Dick Grayson is noticeably absent, which Bruce Wayne explains by saying that they are not on speaking terms. He does reminisce about Dick when confronting the street gangs known as the Mutants in the tank-like Batmobile, and before meeting Carrie Kelley, who has taken up the Robin mantle of her own volition. When Grayson eventually confronts Batman in DKSA, it is revealed that Batman sacked him "For incompetence. For cowardice". He shows Grayson little in the way of sympathy, understanding or affection, and sets into motion the means of killing him there and then.

In Miller's Dark Knight Universe, the connection between Wayne and Grayson is changed from the usual image of Batman and Robin as an idealized father-son relationship into an Oedipal nightmare.

After completing The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Miller launched a series of what he referred to as prequels with All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder. In this series, the sadistic and psychopathic Batman takes the young pre-teen acrobat in as a potential sidekick but berates and abuses him, preventing the boy from coming to terms with the recent killings of his parents and keeping him a virtual prisoner in the Batcave. He even withholds food from Dick and suggests that the boy eats the rats and bats that "present" themselves to him. He is also furious with Alfred for later showing a more humane treatment towards the boy. However, as the series progresses, Bruce takes Dick to his parents' graves in the Wayne family cemetery and begin to bond over the grief they share from the murder of their parents.

In Bob Kane and Bill Finger's original meeting of Batman and Dick in 1940, the Caped Crusader was much more friendly and sympathetic towards him, and only jokingly threatened to put him across his knee when Robin took a risk-too-many while dealing with those who had killed his parents.

Comics historian Peter Sanderson states, "It is easy to see how Grayson might end up hating Batman after the way that he is treated in All-Star Batman and Robin #2."

There are also various parallels between The Dark Knight Strikes Again and the DC Animated Universe feature Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker,, as both feature a former Robin emerging as a "copy" of the Joker years after a bitter falling out with Batman and the original Joker's death, though with some notable differences.

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