Talk:The Dark Pictures Anthology: House of Ashes/Archive 1

Expanding the article
Hey y'all! The following article has been undergoing expansion for the past 11 days, and expect more work done in the future weeks. Here is a link to the article prior to my arrival as well as a diff between the old article and the latest revision (as of the making of this post). I plan to nominate the Wiki article for GA, and perhaps make it undergo a DYK nomination after that as well.

If you have any questions or clarifications to raise with regards to the information in the article, please don't hesitate to reply to this section or ping me in my talk page, as I am the major contributor to the Wiki article! I will try to respond to any queries as soon as I can. Thank you all for reading :")

Troubled.elias (talk) 09:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Nice job on the article. I would like to say that the article is in good shape. We typically would not spend time discussing about video game trailers unless they are very notable/important. Typically we prefer having a static image rather than using a gif. OceanHok (talk) 12:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! The feedback is much, much appreciated :")


 * About the GIF, I did try to look for a singular scene that explicitly involved an act or gesture of friendship, hoping that one still image would suffice given your prior advice at your user talk page. However, every other scenario that evoked the "enemy of my enemy" theme simply involved someone looking at another person and telling them "we need to team up" or "come on man, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, stop arguing". Which, I mean a screenshot of an activity as simple as that is... not that helpful or contextually significant to readers to be honest. Then I remembered the handshake scene from someone else's playthrough and decided it would be the perfect thing to show on the article. I looked for a video online and tried to screenshot that scene.


 * However, two things: when Salim and Jason shake their hands, the screen cuts to a shot of their hands only, and when the handshake is done it cuts back to their faces. I thought about taking a still screenshot of just the hands, but then I figured that readers would find it more helpful if the image showed the faces of the two men doing the handshakes - IMO a shot of just two hands shaking feels too decorative. On the other hand, when the camera does show Jason and Salim's faces, their hands ain't shaking. Sure you can see Jason in one shot reach his hand out for Salim's but you have to squint a little to make out that detail. Just a shot showing who the characters are would be too boring, like you've said before. Thus, I felt like a GIF showing everything was the best possible compromise there was - readers would get an idea of who Jason and Salim are, and readers would actually see the two of them Do A Friendship.


 * Also pondered for a bit if including a photo at all for that part would be unnecessary. IMO it isn't - "enemy of my enemy" is mentioned or at least alluded to in almost every section, and many reviews of the game talk about Salim and his relationship with the other characters with whom he teams up. An image that hearkens to that theme will definitely enhance the article. Hope that clarifies things - I know that you said "typically we prefer static images over gifs" indicating that there are exceptions for relevant contexts, and I just wanted to argue on why I thought it was relevant. Cheers! Troubled.elias (talk) 14:45, 15 January 2022 (UTC)


 * It is more of a copyright issue when using gif (WP:NFCCP [3b]). OceanHok (talk) 15:58, 15 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Ah, alright, that clears things up. Still, I think my arguments apply - all portions of the GIF are necessary to show the characters and depict them being friendly and all. Although I could trim the amount of frames in the GIF if ever that comes up as a point again in, say, a GA nomination. What do you think? Troubled.elias (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2022 (UTC)


 * It really depends on the reviewer. There are GA full of gifs (e.g. Kena: Bridge of Spirits), but then the gif were nominated for deletion after the article became GA. OceanHok (talk) 12:07, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

GA
I finished a pass through of the article and got some things cleaned up. I noticed you or someone added hidden notes for things to add to the reception section, so that is probably the main thing that needs to be done before the GAN. -- Zoo (talk) 01:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC) 📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 04:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC) 📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 06:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC) 📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 06:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZooBlazer: Great. Now. I know I brought up the whole Salim/Jason GIF image way back when, and clueless me used to think that it was enough to satisfy FUR. In retrospect, I think it is absolutely decorative and we would probably be better off removing it. What do you say? ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍  ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
 * I wouldn't be upset if we removed it, but as of now I'd lean towards keeping it. The description of the gif currently fits with commentary from the article. However, we could always remove it and replace it (or not) with a screenshot or something. -- Zoo (talk) 04:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZooBlazer: I see. Now, my next concern is with the "Playable characters" section. Per MOS:VG, the fictional stuff should be kept to a minimum (most often limited to the plot and universe background). I think much of that subsection can be incorporated somewhere else in the article, focusing instead on the actors who played them and how their characters relate to much of the gameplay mechanics. IMO as it stands there is an excess in focus towards their in-game characterisation. ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍  ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
 * 100% agree. I was just about to bring that up lol. -- Zoo (talk) 06:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We can create a characters subsection in the synopsis section like how God of War does it. -- Zoo (talk) 06:31, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZooBlazer: I am not sure if we can apply the same structure here. God of War features loads of recurring characters throughout the franchise, so I believe it makes sense to devote a whole subsection to explaining the characters. The five-person ensemble in HoA, meanwhile, is one-off, of course. It should take, at most, a paragraph to explain all the relevant characters IMO. ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍  ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
 * My link was to the 2018 game, not the franchise as a whole. I think we could use that structure because it's only about the main characters. They also do it in just a couple paragraphs, so we can keep it to one or two and be fine still. Either way we'll figure something out. -- Zoo (talk) 07:10, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Your Power After sleeping on it, I think it makes sense for the characters to have a section before the main plot as a way of introducing them. I trimmed the section a bit, but it can still be reworked and we probably don't need so many instances of using 2 or more references for every character. I don't know if you have refs that you prefer over others in the section or not, so I left it alone for now. -- Zoo (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@Your Power I cleaned up the reception section a bit and I think the article is in a condition that can be nominated for GA, if you also agree. If we want to eventually nominated for FAC, this edit can be referred to for expanding the reception as it has all the headers that helped with categorizing sections. --  Zoo Blazer talk 03:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 14:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZooBlazer eh I think it's fine already for GA quality. We'll let the reviewer be the fresh pair of eyes and spot any more weird stuff. Will nominate <b style="border-radius:3em;padding:4px;background:#37607C;color:white;">‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ </b> ‍ <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"><sup style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">💬 "Will you call me?"

Minor reference quibbles
@ZooBlazer, hats off to italicising the necessary words on the references while I was off. Now, another thing I wanted to discuss wrt. layout. If this article were to be taken to FAC (to be clear, I encourage this move), citations need to be formatted consistently, so inclusion of the publisher needs to apply to every citation or none at all. Do you think it'd be worth it trying to include the publisher for every single citation? Because I feel like not every work in here has a clear-cut case of who the publishers are. <b style="border-radius:3em;padding:4px;background:#37607C;color:white;">‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ </b> ‍ <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"><sup style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">💬 "Will you call me?" <sub style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 02:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

<sub style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 05:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I've never really added publishers when adding refs to articles, except I've done some throughout the anthology articles when I've noticed other refs from the same site had the publisher listed. If it's not an absolute necessity for a potential FAC, then we can just skip adding publishers to all refs. But if it's something that would help the promotion, then we can work on adding the missing ones. I've also never nominated an article for FA so I don't know how much needs to change after GA. -- Zoo (talk) 02:09, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Your Power Looks like most refs have their publisher already, so at this point it's probably best to just try to add publishers to the rest of the refs if possible. -- Zoo (talk) 19:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Your Power I added all of the publishers I could that were missing. Sites like VentureBeat, GamingBolt, and a couple of the award sites didn't have anything in regards to publishers that I could find. I think finishing the critical response is the last thing to do before a GAN. -- Zoo (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * After getting a different article to GA recently, I've realized reception sections are not my strongest article writing ability. However, I'll probably try to get to work on it in the next week so we can finally get it nominated for GA. --  Zoo Blazer talk 05:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @ZooBlazer: I'd say I'm pretty good with writing such sections. Here's the plan. Just summarize every review's points, split each comment into different paragraphs to keep up with the established themes, and I'll take care of the rest by synthesizing them all. <b style="border-radius:3em;padding:4px;background:#37607C;color:white;">‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ </b> ‍ <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"><sup style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">💬 "Will you call me?"
 * @Your Power I started adding a little info to some of the still hidden sections, but a lot of the reviews were saying pretty similar stuff that didn't really help with what we need. --  Zoo Blazer talk 17:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Hm, okay. Let me discuss this in a new section - Elias

Reviews
Here is what I've learned from months of writing critical receptions, mainly for songs. This may prove useful to you.


 * Generally, you'd want to skim every review—skim, not read read—first for any recurring points. You use these points as the "thesis statements" of certain paragraphs. Take note of any references that apply to your thesis statements.
 * Now, for every thesis statement, go back, thoroughly read and paraphrase the arguments from each review. If many critics make a certain point, synthesize the relevant reviews in one paragraph. e.g.
 * "Many critics praised the tracks in Guitar Songs for their self-reflection and social commentary, some of whom considered it a testament to her writing abilities" (Guitar Songs, a GA). or
 * "Some music journalists also appreciated how Eilish portrayed abuse as a universal experience to which anyone can fall victim at any point in their life. They complimented the lyrics for combining personal anecdotes with other people's stories of abuse and political references to the ways abuse of power is perpetuated in a larger scale, such as how prominent figures in the music industry still hold a high degree of influence despite numerous allegations of workplace harassment." (Your Power, a FA).
 * A good example of this in the article would be something like follows. Mind you, though, this is merely an example; it has been a while since I saw the HoA reviews. "Critics had mixed views on the game's character lineup. Some were not impressed with the love triangle between Eric, Rachel, and Nick ... Many others praised the chemistry between Jason and Salim, with particular emphasis on Salim for his empathetic posturing and character motivations."
 * It is of course not enough to summarize consensus. To support your thesis statements, you will have to look for specific points to cite, similar to the reviews you read. Considering that there are obviously multiple reviews, you must lie recumbent on your gaming chair to cherrypick which review quotations or points to highlight.
 * "Rooting for someone to live" is already a given with favorites, so I wouldn't really cite that in the article; an exception would be if the reviewers wanted most of the characters to die but not Salim. I particularly liked the reviews that said Salim was awesome for his kill count, so I'd like to see that highlighted.
 * Quotations are crucial, but use them sparingly.
 * Let's continue the Guitar Songs example I used earlier, to show you what I think is a good way of doing it.
 * "Snapes said by using specific narrative details with 'great subtlety' and discussing poignant themes without downplaying their seriousness, Eilish succeeded with creating effectively tragic stories for the EP."
 * Every so often there will come those reviews that apply to your thesis statement but have arguments that go against the points made. Once again, summarize the similarities between the reviews that go against this consensus. If there are, say, only two or three reviews, cite the publications by name in the prose, but if there are more than that, it's best to cherrypick once more
 * For the HoA example, and once again this is a disclaimer I have not read the reviews in a while, you can say "Despite praise towards Salim, some others wrote the amount of Iraqi representation was lacking. Marshall said that so-and-so could have been 'merged' into another Iraqi... Jiang argued that Salim was an example of a 'good' minority whereas Dar was a 'bad' minority..."
 * Rinse and repeat until you have a dense enough paragraph that covers all the aspects of a video game that can possibly be criticized. Past I has already established a structure in there, so it's only up to us in the present to fil the holes.

Ping @ZooBlazer. <b style="border-radius:3em;padding:4px;background:#37607C;color:white;">‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ </b> ‍ <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"><sup style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">💬 "Will you call me?" <sub style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 23:39, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Your Power What If we just c/e what we have to prep for GAN, then we can expand on it more if we want to work on a FAC? --  Zoo Blazer talk 04:16, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much...
...and @ZooBlazer i'm so sorry for my dropping off the face of Wikipedia without warning. that's completely on me. so much irl bullshit, and my mental health is still in pieces. trying to sort this out. and im sorry for how long it took to get back here. but i'm really grateful for all youve done while i was gone. even deciding to pick up where i've left off, both during the ga and during the time i stopped working on the article before the ga, means a lot. it was a great experience working with u, and i hope we get the opportunity for that again in the future !! once again thank you for all your work, and apologies i wasnt there to help. hope everything is well with you. <b style="border-radius:3em;padding:4px;background:#37607C;color:white;">‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ </b> ‍ <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"><sup style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">💬 "Will you call me?" <sub style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 12:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC)