Talk:The Death of Superman/Archive 1

Superman: Doomsday
"As he explained in an interview to Newsarama... But it was be simplified ... In a trailer that was unofficially on April 2007 and removed days after ... Lois & Clark will have a relationship but unknown if ... its believed that Supergirl won't appear neither"


 * This section needs to be cleaned up badly. several sentences are poorly phrased to the point that i wonder if the section was typed up by a retarded third grader. the only thing i changed about the above paragraph (which currently appears on this page) was that i deleted several lines of text that seemed to be passable (no need to have the whole paragraph here, just some examples of why the section needs to be re-written).68.255.230.238 17:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the part about what the trailer revealed can be deleted and replaced with what the movie that's been out for almost 2 years ACTULLY revealed.

Man of low-integrity Steel
What the frag is this about? "Despite his weakened state, he quickly joined the other Supermen in attacking Coast City." Superman JOINED Cyborg Supes in destroying Coast City?!


 * No, he JOINED Superboy and Steel in attacking engine city.

Fair use rationale for Image:Superman vs. Doomsday.JPG
Image:Superman vs. Doomsday.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 03:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Titanic Battle.JPG
Image:Titanic Battle.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 20:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Actual Dates
I changed the dates of the original "Death of Superman" arc from their cover dates (Dec '92 to Jan '93) to their actual dates, which were in October-November 1992. It's well known in comics (as well as most periodicals) that the date on the mag is a "stock until" date, not when it actually comes out. Superman 75 actually had a mass-market release date of November 18, 1992--though it came out one day earlier, November 17, in the Direct Market. (I'm a nerd, I know)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoecarnate (talk • contribs) 01:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * By the same conventions, comic are listed by the "cover date" not the "shelf date" which can flucuate. - J Greb (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Best Seller?
The TV adds for Superman: Doomsday claim that the Death of Superman is "the best selling graphic novel of all time." However, I can't seem to find any independent confirmation of this claim. Anyone able to confirm or deny this claim? Reyemile 02:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I did some extensive research online and could find nothing but the advertising campaign for Superman/Doomsday DVD (or those directly quoting said ads) making this claim. There is no sources to verify this claim and I think it should be have some citation or be removed. --MerinTB (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Supermanvsdoomsday.jpg
Image:Supermanvsdoomsday.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 09:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Reign superboy.jpg
Image:Reign superboy.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Length of Hiatus?
There seems to be some confusion over the length of the hiatus between Funeral for a Friend and Reign of the Supermen.

Funeral for a Friend
 * At this point, all Superman comic titles went on a three-month hiatus...

Reign of the Supermen
 * Following a two month hiatus on the Superman titles, all of them were relaunched.

--Darknus823 (talk) 04:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Image issues
The fair use of image:Warner Premier - Superman Doomsday screenshot.jpg in this article is questionable. Listed below is/are the reason(s) for this:

Placed without any context or need.

If the above concern(s) can be addressed in light of the relevant policies and/or guidelines, the image use can be retained. If not, the image needs to be removed from the article.

The fair use of image:Death of Superman contrast.jpg in this article is questionable. Listed below is/are the reason(s) for this:

Placed without any context.

If the above concern(s) can be addressed in light of the relevant policies and/or guidelines, the image use can be retained. If not, the image needs to be removed from the article.

- J Greb (talk) 18:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The images have been removed. - J Greb (talk) 22:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

"Pallborne"?
The word's mentioned in the JL adaptation section. I've googled it and looked it up and I'm pretty sure it's not a word. Imput?


 * Is that anything like pallbearing, as in to transport a dead guy?

I'm pretty sure imput isn't a word either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.139.1.68 (talk) 16:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Where to Buy?
Is there a copy of this that has the death of superman along with .....'the world's reaction to Superman's death in "Funeral for a Friend," the emergence of four individuals claiming to be the "new" Superman, and the eventual return of the original Superman in "Reign of the Supermen!"'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carluverdrm2004 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC) Carluverdrm2004 (talk) 01:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes there is. 129.139.1.68 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC).

Infinite Crisis
An issue of the recent infinite crisis seems to have retconned superman's death out of continuity
 * If someone can prove it, it'd be worth a mention. Either way though, the Death of Superman is still a milestone in Superman's history.

Definitely not true. When Kal-El was fighting Kal-L they were seeing each other's histories through the other's eyes. What he might be referring to was that when Kal-L was put in Kal-El's history (his fight with doomsday) he survived and said the world needed to see it. Same as when Kal-El was put into Kal-L's history, he stood up before congress and told them he was Clark Kent and how dare they demand the JSA's secret identities. Neither actually happened (well it's fiction, so none of it happened really), but it's just a "What if they switched lives" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.139.1.68 (talk) 21:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

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Wizard retrospective notes
Here are some notes from what I pulled from Wizard's retrospective on "The Death of Superman". JOE BRO  64  19:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Pg. 9 (by Curt Swan/Denny O'Neil): comments about gory/violent stories followed by "I think the 'death' story came out of the blue. There was no build-up, no suspense developed. Superman had no foreboding of some force out there that would conquer him. It all occurred too quickly."
 * Pg. 22: although months passed between the faux "cancellation" and Adventures #500, no time passed in the comics. Not written as an epilogue but as a prologue. #499 was supposed to be the last issue of Orday's contract but he wanted to end his run on a historical note. Death and other Sandman characters were desired to be included in the afterlife part but could not be (because Vertigo).
 * Pg. 23: didn't find much on this page; mostly just Ordway talking about the story. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
 * Pg. 24-5: Supermen are four aspects of Superman taken to the extreme. Stern treats Eradicator Superman as someone who is far more alien than human, like "Old Testament". Closer to Kirby's rendition of the Silver Surfer.
 * Pg. 26: also didn't find much here besides commentary on Superboy being like an "MTV generation kind of guy".
 * Pg. 28-9: Cyborg Superman resembles the Terminator. Most intriguing is Steel; based on African American folk hero John Henry (hence the name "John Henry Irons").
 * Pg. 30: just a bit of background on Steel.
 * Pg. 31-32: new villainess named White Rabbit. Plans are being made for a Steel miniseries, for story to cross into the larger DCU, and a Doomsday miniseries. Comparison to New Coke.

Hero Illustrated notes
Some notes from Hero Illustrated #6 (December 1993): I'll add more soon. JOE BRO  64  18:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Page one:
 * Hard to intertwine four distinct books into one narrative
 * Quotes/insight about Superman Summit
 * Jurgens: "Generally, we all got in a room and toss around story ideas. A lot of times we disagreed, had some big fights, and the last person left standing was the winner and ultimately got their way."
 * Bogdanove: "It's like any family... we have our dysfunctional moments."
 * Unique method of working together: annual summit focused everyone's attention on the next year's worth of stories. All Superman stories at the time can be traced back to this meeting.
 * 18 divergent, artistic egos crowded in one room. Carlin often forced to play babysitter.
 * Page two:
 * First summit meeting was in 1988.
 * More background on the summit. A lot of it seems too detailed for this article.
 * Always had to compromise. This is particularly evident in DoS: fought about what Doomsday should be (some thought more intelligent/well-spoken); Reign was essentially all the ideas pooled together.
 * More than four characters to replace Superman ("Little-Boy Superman" and "Rock-Creature Superman" are the two that are named)
 * Each writer was able to maintain a sense of individuality for their Superman, even if their original ideas had been altered.

Part two: JOE BRO  64  22:02, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Page three:
 * Bogdanove: "The one thing I was really interested in was finding out what makes Superman so super?"
 * Evaluated costume, powers, and identity before changing build, height, weight, looks, race, and powers, except what he felt was most Superman
 * Grummett: "[Karl Kesel] seemed like the natural one to write it, so we came up with the Superboy idea, and I designed him on the plane on the way home... and that was pretty much the final version we saw.
 * Stern: "It's unfortunate that deaths always attract attention, probably because Americans don't deal with it very well... [Superman]'s not the first guy to die in comics, but Superman as a cultural icon, he's really been a part of our national identity, and I think this whole death this really illustrates that."
 * Carlin: cynics accused DC of doing it just for money.
 * Every year, Ordway said "hey, let's kill him", and in 1992 they decided to do it because of the TV show.
 * Knew they had something special when they came up with "Funeral for a Friend".
 * Biggest undertaking was bringing Superman back, not killing him. Did not want to cheat anybody.
 * Page four:
 * Had to make the death seem real.
 * Bogdanove: "The actual death of Superman was just a slugfest, the real story... was showing the world what it would be like without Superman."
 * World was supposed to be sad without Superman. Fans wanted them to bring Superman back, which made the team happy.
 * Superman had long hair because Jurgens didn't really want to just go back to the regular costume. The black suit came from a sketch Bogdanove made at the meeting where the Supermen were conceived.
 * Superboy and Supergirl getting their own series

Vertigo note
please stop removing the note over and over again and discuss why you think it shouldn't be in the article. This article is currently a featured article candidate, and the FA critera states that the page must be stable. I added the note for the following reasons: I'm also alerting the comics project so other editors can weigh in. JOE BRO  64  22:55, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't explicitly call the mature comics line Vertigo, so labeling it as such is WP:SYNTH.
 * Connecting with the previous point, I think the article might've been written before Vertigo was an official thing.
 * The information is definitely useful for someone not familiar with the topic. An uneducated reader might not understand what Vertigo is, or might not be able to make the connection that Sandman is a mature readers title.

I think the information deviates from the article's topic and contains irrelevant content like John Constantine not being used for 20 years. What was already in the article was enough. Tatum-Tatum (talk) 12:28, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It does deviate from the main topic. That's why it belongs in a foot note. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with Argento Surfer. It technically does deviate from the topic, which is why it's a footnote. If it was in prose, I'd agree that we should remove it. But it's not in prose. JOE BRO  64  14:15, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the note is useful, but I do also think what is stated in the note can be reduced. For example, it could become: After the success of The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen in 1986, DC began to publish more comics aimed at adults, such as The Sandman. These comics eventually formed an imprint, DC Vertigo, which launched in 1993.[7] While these comics take place in the DC Universe, they rarely cross over,[26] primarily due to the mandate,[25] and mainstream DC writers were not allowed to use characters from these comics for around 20 years.[27] With this change, you remove the Hellblazer stuff, since all that is really mentioned is Sandman and Dream, but still keep the descriptive nature you were going for to inform the readers. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:07, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Favre1fan93. Tatum-Tatum (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

JOE BRO : stop reverting until a consensus is reached. Tatum-Tatum (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * He implemented Favre1fan93's suggestion. I thought we had consensus here. Is there still disagreement? Argento Surfer (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I implemented what Favre1fan93 suggested... you're the one editing against consensus. JOE BRO  64  20:13, 3 December 2018 (UTC)