Talk:The Defenders (miniseries)

Title
Favre, I am wondering whether we should call it "The Defenders (miniseries)", since it has been explicitly referred to as only a 4-8 ep one-off crossover. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I've seen both (miniseries) and (TV series) used for articles in Category:American television miniseries and a few other variations too. That may be a better disambig, but the only thing being, if there is a second season, it wouldn't be a miniseries anymore. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:17, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In favor of not changing it, Agent Carter could also be seen as a miniseries. That is disambiguated to (TV series). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, Agent Carter is referred to by the production as a TV series, and they have hopes for additional seasons, while this has only ever been called a miniseries, and I haven't seen anyone explicitly talk about future seasons of this. I think that unless we have someone involved in the project calling it a TV series, we really should use miniseries, and it would be a better disambiguation. If another season is ordered sometime in the future, then we could look at changing it then, but for now, the title shouldn't say TV series, and then the article say miniseries. - adamstom97 (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay. Do you think it should be (TV miniseries) or just (miniseries)? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well...I would lean towards (TV miniseries), but is there any precedent for this that we could look to? - adamstom97 (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll ask over at the TV project. When we get an answer there, I'll make the change to the draft name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:08, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:54, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Per WP:NCTV, it should be (miniseries). I'll make the change. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

This title is ambiguous - there have been 2 comic book miniseries with this name. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:14, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Three years later... What are the links to the articles for those miniseries you mention? --  Alex TW 01:06, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Eleven hours later... Defenders (comics) and Defenders (comics). Argento Surfer (talk) 12:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * So, no separate articles for either of them, just an issue that can easily be solved with a hatnote in this article instead of reviving a three-year-old discussion. --  Alex TW 12:38, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Is there a problem with me not making a new section? Because you seem to be making an issue out of it. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Is there a need to revive an age old discussion for an issue you could have just implemented? --  Alex TW 13:56, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't be a jerk Argento Surfer (talk) 14:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:TTR. --  Alex TW 14:08, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Series Name
In the latest release from Marvel, it refers to the series as Marvel's Defenders, without the "The".
 * Official Netflix page still has "The". This is only one release that's been different. We are still a bit away from this, so let's not jump the gun. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:07, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't think posting an observation on the talk page was jumping the gun. Anyway, for what it's worth, the previous press release announcing Daredevil's second season also lacked the "The".  DinoSlider (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I was not saying that by you posting we were jumping the gun. What I meant, was because you posted, and one release (before your second comment) existed, not to quickly go through the moving process. Now since you noted the second release, that does pique my attention as something to definitely keep an eye out for. In the coming months, if they are consistently without the "The", I'd say that is good indication it may not have "The" in it (I guess forgoing it like the recent Avengers films). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:14, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I noticed that in the press release for Iron Fist, they went back to "The". - DinoSlider (talk) 01:03, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I did too. I'm still keeping an eye on this in the back of my mind, and obviously you are aware of it too. I'm sure we'll get a definitive answer soon. I just hope we don't get flip flopping from Marvel to make it hard for us! (And btw, Netflix still says "The" too.) - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:58, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Elden Henson
Looks like Elden Henson told some fans at a convention that he'll be in Defenders. There isn't a usable source, but we should keep an eye out for something. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:29, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I saw that as well. Will do. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Production start
So since Iron Fist ended on October 8, Finn Jones said in a Facebook Q&A for Luke Cage, that he has about three weeks between the end of Iron Fist and the start of Defenders. So that should put us as starting about October 31, just to keep an eye out around then. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:14, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hey guys. So as I said above, and with the announcement of Clarkson directing the first two episodes, filming is probably going to start Monday, if not really soon. Just be on the look out for any sources indicating filming has started, if not very obvious the day it happens (ie Punisher starting). As always, once we have the source confirming filming has started, we'll start the process of moving the article to the mainspace. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:26, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * So as I thought, production does seem to be starting on Monday (this is completely not a reliable source stating such but does indicate it). Given this though, could we be WP:BOLD and make the article move on Monday even if we don't have the source, and just add it later? The article definitely passes WP:GNG and there really isn't a WP:NFF equivalent for TV articles, despite us adapting the principle of WP:NFF for our uses. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:58, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * In that case WP:GNG is all that matters.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to move it over now, and add about filming once we get a good source. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll get the process started then. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:47, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Reprisal mentions
I stand by my edit with the summary, "The reprisal bit seems trivial, and redundant since the descriptions state who they initially supported or an ally of". The revert did not address these issues. It also reads as bad formulaic writing.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:27, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I support your statement TriiipleThreat, added by the fact that repeated usage of the reprisal sentence in the "cast" section seems annoying. I think it's better the reprisal sentence remain in the "casting" section, with only one occurrence, and applying to all the characters. Kailash29792 (talk) 14:41, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we should just keep reprisal information in the casting section. This is a slightly different situation to the other series, both because there are heaps of characters crossing over, and this is a miniseries, so probably won't have any pages split off from it. I've also worded the casting section to try avoid being too repetitive with the reprisal notes. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:29, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Episode Details
Can somebody please direct me to the article where it says the episodes for "The Defenders" are going to be 8 hours long. Maybe I'm just not searching hard enough, and maybe the episodes really are 8 hours long, but that just sounds like a ludicrous length for a television show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fewger (talk • contribs) 20:55, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * There are eight episodes and they are one hour each. - DinoSlider (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * And for your reference, it is noted in the article, in the "Release" section, second sentence: "The 8 hour-long episodes..." - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Gao
Confirmed by Colter, but the info traces back to MCU Exchange with no video or audio to confirm. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:44, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm sure we'll get a better source soon. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Poster
If needed, here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * May actually be this one, here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Punisher
The Punisher is apparently in the series. He appears in the first episode and was featured in the latest trailer. Can someone add him to the cast list? Thanks! Npamusic (talk) 22:48, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The info has been restored. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:00, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Potential article move
Wanted to bring this up before the episodes are released. On the chance Defenders is renewed, I think this should be moved to have the dab of (2017 TV series), because once a renewal comes (if at all) the fact of it being a "miniseries" no longer applies. At that point, it would just be a series with a short episode count that has multiple seasons. Just wanted others thoughts and to discuss so everyone is on the same page should this happen and we aren't scrambling to have this discussion then. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:12, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, if it is renewed then it is no longer a miniseries and should just be moved to the TV series dab. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:23, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Why is this even labelled a "miniseries"? I don't see that term used in the title of even one of this article's references... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:01, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * See the first discussion on this talk page. --  Alex TW 16:06, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I see – it looks like it's basically WP:OR then, as no one above cited a source calling it a "miniseries". Series, even "short-run" ones, should only be labeled "miniseries" if mainline sourcing calls it that. There are plenty of "short-run" series that are labeled "event series" or "limited series" instead and are not "miniseries". "Miniseries" is rather a narrower category and does not apply to every short-run series out there. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:16, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * See the first few sentences of the "Development" section. Here's the direct source too. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:06, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, I advise referencing that to use of the term "miniseries" in the lede, then, so there's no ambiguity. Adding a second referenced source that uses the term "miniseries" wouldn't be a bad idea either... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Marvel refers to it a a miniseries in this source that is in the page already. - DinoSlider (talk) 17:13, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * All right – I advise that that source, and the Deadline one, be used to reference the term "miniseries" in the lede. Doing that should eliminate any ambiguity in the justification of the use of the term. Then, it's "problem solved". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:28, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Per WP:LEADCITE, that wouldn't be needed, since it is sourced in the production section. I don't believe we would need to add it to remove ambiguity (because we have it well sourced in article). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That's not what LEADCITE says. In fact, it specifically says "...editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. This falls into the latter category – anything that is likely to be controversial can and should be re-referenced in the lead. Especially in the case of this article where not one of the cited sources actually uses the word "miniseries" in their reference titles. I don't know where this idea comes from that WP:LEADCITE "bans" referencing in the lede. Because it clearly doesn't... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:42, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Frankly, this has had this disambiguation since it was started in the draft space, and this is the first time anyone has "challenged" it. Also, why are you focusing on the fact that reference titles do not state this? (If I'm understanding your point correctly by stating not one of the cited sources actually uses the word "miniseries" in their reference titles). The term is based on what is in the actual articles referenced, not the titles they use. The two in article clearly use this term, and I'm sure many others in the article also use it, so I don't see how there may have been confusion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:05, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It only needs to be challenged once. Consider this me "challenging" it. Again, WP:LEADCITE doesn't "prohibit" referencing in leads – far from it. And my point about the use of the word "miniseries" not being in the reference titles means it not easily verified – if I could have just done a search of the reference titles, and found the word "miniseries" there, we wouldn't be here. Anyway, I'm challenging this, and am requesting that the referencing be restored to the lead – there is zero policy-based reasoning for not citing it right there, so there's no ambiguity to anyone reading it. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:26, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * For the record, the title for the oldest Deadline article is "Marvel Preps 60-Episode Package Of Four Series & A Mini For VOD & Cable Networks" which is currently reference #38. - DinoSlider (talk) 19:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Meh – didn't spell it out. And still not a valid reason not to reference the lede. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

It looks to me that you are being a bit silly here. This is hardly a controversial topic. We have clearly referenced with reliable sources the fact that the show is a miniseries, and though you seemed to miss that, we have now shown you where to find the information. Now you know, no harm done, and we can move on. It's not like the lead is making an open declaration of something that is dubious or unlikely and needs to be accompanied by supporting citations, which is why we have LEADCITE. And insisting that this is a massive issue just because of a minor mistake that you made is pretty disingenuous. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

P.S. BTW we don't choose what the titles of the articles we are referencing say, those come straight from the sources. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Awesome attitude, folks. Thanks for reminding me why I tend to stay away from editing articles on current TV series. But, please, go ahead and read LEADCITE in the most restrictive way possible, and ignore WP:Readers first (and, I'd argue, the spirit of WP:V) in the process. I'm out. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Page's image
So, who chose the article's image/logo? Seriously low-resolution, grainy and terrible coloring. We need to find a better/clearer option for the page as this one looks very mediocre. --50.232.205.246 (talk) 16:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Low quality images are required per Wikipedia's copyright policies, which directly relate to legal laws. And it's not grainy - that is actually how the series' title card appeared in the first episode, with the coloured effects that you assume to be "grainy". --  Alex TW 16:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Recurring / Guest
J. Mallory McCree, Michelle Federer and Chloe Levine were in 3 episodes, and Ron Simons was in 2. They should be listed rather in guest section. Mike210381 (talk) 20:12, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Simons was in 3 (eps 2, 7, and 8), and for this shorter miniseries it looks like 3 episodes is a good indicator of recurring, since these three characters had longer roles throughout the show. Compare them to the characters in the guest section, who each had a couple scenes at most in the whole thing. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I missed Simmons in ep 7. If 3 episodes is good indicator of recurring, why it isn't in first season of Agent Carter? Kyle Bornheimer, Lesley Boone and Alexander Carroll were also in 3 eps and season has also 8 episodes? Mike210381 (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It can go either way in my opinion, making recurring 3 or 4. I do feel the characters with 3 appearances are not simply "bit" players, so I can see them being included. But I would also be fine with them in guest. I'm open to discussing to determine for this article (and the same can be done for Agent Carter season 1 if other choose to reexamine that). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

2018 Primetime Emmy Awards
The series received a nomination for Outstanding Original Main Title Theme Music at the 2018 Primetime Emmy Awards as indicated here and here. 129.194.0.221 (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2022 (UTC)