Talk:The Dharma Bums/Archive 1

Not a retelling
As much as it would be nice if The Dharma Bums was an exact retelling of people and places, it is not. Every time Gary Snyder speaks to any size crowd, somebody feels it is necessary to ask him about The Dharma Bums and Japhy Ryder, etc etc. His response is the shortest he'll give to any question: he is NOT Japhy Ryder. The character Japhy Ryder was certainly based on him, the things he did and said, but it is NOT him. It is wrong to insist on characterizing it otherwise.

Just like there was no "Mexican girl" in Kerouac's travels that made up the stories that went into "On the Road," the real-life events of both books are mingled with plenty of fiction and exaggeration. To assume otherwise is an insult to Kerouac as a writer.

IMHO.

the dharma bum 15:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The work itself is a piece of fiction and therefore even IF we replace every incidence of "Japhy Ryder" with "Gary Snyder," no responsible reader would ever take the novel as historical documentation. Regardless of what Snyder says today, that character in that novel is how Kerouac saw fit to fictionalize him.  Heck, if there were no legal worries, the character's name would BE Gary Snyder and not Japhy Ryder (see, for example, the fact that Kerouac and his editors missed changing the name at one point in the book and we see Japhy called Gary).  Japhy Ryder IS Gary Snyder in the same sense that any great historical figure is themselves in a period piece.  Obviously, the individual in question might snipe and say "that's not me!" but it's exactly how the creator of the art percieves that person, and so yes, it is correct to say that Japhy Ryder IS Gary Snyder.  What if there were no legal issues and Kerouac left the names as he wrote them in the original manuscript?  Would you want to say "Gary Snyder, who is loosely based on Gary Snyder?"  No, it's a work of fiction, not documentary.


 * Having reviewed your other recent "contributions" to Wikipedia, it seems like a waste of time to engage in this discussion with you. But, as you voice the other side of this debate, I'll address your points as I would address anyone who might raise them, in the hope of eventually concluding the argument.


 * The Dharma Bums is a novel, right? Japhy Ryder is a character in that novel. Agreed? Based on those two pretty fair assumptions, I think the most accurate way to deal with this is to say that Japhy Ryder is a character in The Dharma Bums who happens to be based on the poet Gary Snyder. We could get all esoteric and debate fiction and the novel but this is not the place and I don't think such a debate would lead to any resolution on this fairly simple matter. Saying that the character Japhy Ryder is based on the poet Gary Snyder is informative and useful to readers, without making any broad assumptions about the intent of the author that I've never seen any definitive proof of.


 * In everything I've read and heard, Kerouac certainly gave his characters names different than the people they were based on to mask the identity of the real people, but he also did so to give himself a certain artistic license, allowing himself to not just write memories but to create stories based on his life. Unless you -- or someone else -- can provide concrete evidence that Kerouac's only reason for creating the character of Japhy Ryder were legal ones, I don't see how there's any justification for saying that Japhy Ryder IS Gary Snyder.  the dharma bum 18:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes, like all other misguided Wikipedians, you feel like the "recent contributions" has something to do with the relevance of what I've said. We're debating mere semantics, and, frankly, it's not that important to explaining the novel.  But yes, Japhy Ryder IS Gary Snyder, regardless of how close he comes to the real Gary Snyder, the same way Henry V IS Henry V is Shakespeare's play.  It's all dramatisation of a person, whether the name is the same or not.

Hey, Dharma Bum, there WAS a Mexican girl, whom Kerouac met during his travels in 1947 and wrote about in "On the Road." Her name was Bea Franco. Pitoucat June 12, 2006


 * Hmm. You learn something new everyday. Source? -the dharma bum 15:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Source -- Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Kerouac, by Gerald Nicosia, p.200. -Pitoucat


 * Cool, I haven't read that one. Thanks!! -the dharma bum 21:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Slip-up
Is it worth mentioning that Kerouac slipped up and called Japhy "Gary" at one point? It's at the end of section 23 (page 122 in my copy): "I had a dollar left and Gary was waiting for me at the shack. The whole trip had been as swift an enlightening as a dream, and I was back." Owen (talk) 22:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I made a quick correction to the wording on Desolation peak. It is not Hozomeen's Desolation peak, they are two different mountains.

t —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahellers (talk • contribs) 00:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

novel vs. journalism
In a recent interview, Snyder jokes about the accuracy of "The Dharma Bums": "I had already introduced him to hiking in the Sierra when we went up on the Matterhorn in October of 1955, which is described in The Dharma Bums -- one of the few things in the book which is actually close to truth (laughing)."


 * "Walking Mount Tam", by Steve Heilig,(First appeared in the Anderson Valley Advertiser) http://counterpunch.org/heilig07142009.html

-- Doom (talk) 16:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)