Talk:The Doon School/Archive 2

Censorship seems to have abated
Previous attempts to distort the article away from a NPOV appear to have abated; flag to check for neutrality has been removed.Spy99 (talk) 07:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

out of doon i can say S.R. das was a genius. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Watch for censorship
There is an attempt underway, originating from IP addresses in India, to suppress information that is not flattering to the Doon School's public image, nor indeed it's self-image.Spy99 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Any one who went to Doon should be proud. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 22:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC) this article needs more editions particularly data on the pass-outs.

Watch for spam
Some of the edits to this page, from User:125.19.209.66, have been spam, vandalism, or not written with a neutral point of view. Judging by the history of this IP's contributions, including frequent attempts to include the phrase "best school in the world", it is likely that these edits originate from students at the Doon School itself, although this isn't possible to confirm with a reverse DNS lookup. Spy99 (talk) 07:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

very good article. more refs required for a b. welcomeVictuallers 09:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Rajiv reflected Doon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.146.243.96 (talk) 13:37, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Outstanding Page (2012)
I vividly remember the horrid site of this page a year ago but now it has been updated. Moreover, it is now neutral and unbiased and touches upon all the main points of the school. Many thanks and Good Luck!!

59.178.158.42 (talk) 12:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Good Article preparation
I would be interested in making this a good article. Some comments that I can think of:
 * Flesh out "Extracurricular activities" section - not sure if there is anything left to add
 * More pictures will be added (around summertime)
 * Do all of the dates in the newspaper citations need to be fully linked? yes and done
 * create/explain Admission Possible explained
 * maybe expand lead sections seem good — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merlaysamuel (talk • contribs) 16:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Merlay's GA Review: Pass
I have now had time to review this article, and believe it broadly meets the criteria to be listed as a good article. There are, however, some points in the test that need addressing before it can be passed. Some of these are likely to seem very pedantic, but do bear with me!

Lead
 * The Doon School Weekly is not a magazine, it is a newspaper. ✅
 * In the lead, final paragraph, "The young institution has also experienced internal controversy, when in March of 2006, one-third of the..." - two things: "young institution" is a little odd/ambiguous, would "institution" alone suffice? Also, I think the commas are a little out.  Try replacing that portion with "controversy when, in March 2006, one-third..." ✅
 * Note throughout that dates need not be written "Month of Year", merely "Month Year" ✅
 * Be careful not to include so much information in the lead that it does more than summarise the article. See WP:LEAD and later comments.  COnsider rewriting the lead to provide a concise summary that doesn't "upstage" the article.✅

History
 * "has been a magnet for" - this phrase is somewhat informal. Might I suggest "This school has been the subject of media attention..."? ✅
 * ", which was founded by the Indian Public Schools Society," - this information is given in the lead, and its inclusion here is redundant. ✅
 * "Initially, the interest seemed to..." - it either did or it didn't! :) ✅
 * The article repeats the fact that the faculty must sign a policy. It only needs to be mentioned once. ✅

Religious Affirmations
 * What is a bedrock Hindu doctrine? It sounds as though you mean at the core of all Hindu belief.  Would all dominations agree with the quoted statements as being "bedrock"?  If not, then please remove them, and simply provide a reference. ✅
 * "Left of center publications such as Doon School.." - I'm not sure this is a fitting description of the magazine in question. Its Wikipedia article, for example, does not include any mention of it having a political bias.  Clarify or reference as appropriate. ✅
 * "author views as "false scientific teaching" at Doon School--"false" in that, while the claims..." reads better as "author views as "false scientific teaching in that, while the claims..." ✅
 * Please reference all quotations.✅
 * Inclusion of the controversy here is redundant - now the third time including the lead that it has been mentioned. ✅
 * Can the link on "recent radio phone in" be removed and replaced with an inline citation for this sentence? ✅
 * Repetition of information in the lead.✅

Campus
 * wikilinking "Home School Legal Defense Association" not required here ✅
 * Reference for "Skinner's Field" ✅
 * References for the final paragraph, particularly about the delays ✅

Academics
 * Denial of accreditation - remove weblink and change it to an inline citation. Is it necessary to mention this here again though? ✅ (removed redundancy)
 * PhD only needs to be wikilinked once, and can you direct it straight to Doctor of Philosophy, please? ✅

Student Life
 * "young institution" - "recently established"? ✅

My review
I'm going to be blunt, because I actually think that this article could be very good. It's somewhat rare to have good quality articles on schools in India, but this one is on its way.


 * The first issue I notice is the tone of the article. Whether the authors have meant to or not, this comes off as looking at the school in an extremely promotional light. The worst offenders include the "Ethos", "Campus", "Daily life", "Social Work" and "Midterms & Mountaineering" sections. These should all be trimmed heavily, and unsourced material should be cut entirely.


 * This brings us to the second GA-failing issues; the sourcing is less then ideal. Many section have a minimum of sources, and that will quick-fail a GA.

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to go through this and aggressively take out promotional and unsourced material. I'll split my edits into "this-stuff-should-be-gone-forever" and "feel-free-to-replace-if-sources-are-found". Thanks for your work, Nolelover Talk·Contribs 17:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

interjection
Do forgive me but I really can't understand how writing facts about social service & mountaineering (which are even mentioned in indian newspapers!) are claimed to be showing the school in a promotional light. Such was never the intent of the contributors. After all, the page should provide info on prominent features (which are even reported by newspapers!) Furthermore, sections like 'ethos' were added after much debate and a consesus was built that it is important to project school's values and principles. As for sources, they're being added everyday! It'll be thoughtful of you to re-consider your remarks. Thanks! 141.0.8.50 (talk) 18:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't say everything was completely useless, and I fully understand that the original authors were in complete good faith. However, the sections I mention above make many unsourced statements. If you can show that Indian newspapers reported those kinds of things like you say, then by all means add them! If "social work" could be better sourced, it could be one of the best sections in the article. As for ethos, could you point me to a discussion in which consensus was reached? I see nothing. Nolelover Talk·Contribs 18:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I have noted what you say nolelove and will work on your advice. Many thanks for your insightful suggestions :-) In ethos, we thought it vital to include A. E. Foot's quotations and believe me when i say this- we didn't have any other intentions, when we included ethos, than listing the principles on which the school is based. Moreover, Doon really doesn't need to depend upon petty gimmicks to gain publicity (as you alluded to in your first remark) It's well-known in india. Anyway, i understand that you're doing your job and i thank you for it. I will work on your suggestions and make it even better. 141.0.9.217 (talk) 20:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Response
I am going to be blunt, too. Taking a slash-and-burn approach to an article is not "editing" in any grown-up sense of the word: you had the option of marking up text that you felt needed additional citations, but you chose not to. You had the option of using this talk page to ask why particular sections like Ethos, but you chose not to. Instead, you chose to simply eliminate materials that you don't understand, thereby limiting the scope of the article to the limits of your personal knowledge and comprehension. Here are some answers to questions you should have asked:

Q.: why is "Ethos" important?

A.: Because prior to Doon's foundation, most so-called "public" (i.e. private) schools were set up as a "Chief's Colleges" (e.g. Mayo College), intended solely for the education of the nobility, or were set up by missionaries with the arrogant goal of converting the heathen Indians to Christianity. Westerners who came to India to teach were still influenced by Macaulay's Minute on Indian Education which aimed to produce "a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect" and which also set the model for Anglo-Indian education by stating that "We have to educate a people who cannot at present be educated by means of their mother-tongue. We must teach them some foreign language. The claims of our own language it is hardly necessary to recapitulate."

Doon was the first school to be set up with the goal of being an "pan-Indian public school", and this was considered a radical departure for the Anglo-Indian elite in the inter-war decade. Doon taught Sanskrit and Hindi from the very beginning, despite Macaulay's claim that "a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia".

Doon was the first national school to mix boys of different religions and castes, which was also considered radical at the time.

Doon was also the first, and possibly the only school in India, to be influenced by Kurt Hahn's philosophy.

There's a whole book on the subject, Constructing Post-Colonial India: National Character and the Doon School by Sanjay Srivastva: please consider reading it if you would like to be better informed about a subject that you feel competent to edit with a machete.

Q.: why is "Campus" important?

A.: Because the school was established on the grounds of a former Forest Research Institute, it inherited a unique collection of rare flora : there are plants and trees that are not native to the area, and certainly not common to other schools. If you think it is commonplace for schools to have unique flora on their campus, perhaps you could provide that information on this talk page.

Q.: why is "Mountaineering" important?

A.: Because the teachers and students at Doon pioneered mountaineering in India: an activity that was previously considered a bizarre preoccupation of Westerners. The peaks listed are very substantial: they are higher than any mountains in the entire United States. If you think it is commonplace for schoolboys to climb mountains as tall as these, perhaps you could provide that information on this talk page.

As with "Ethos", there's a whole book on the subject: "For Hills to Climb". Please buy it and read it if you would like to be better informed about a subject that you choose to dismiss so capriciously.

Q.: why is "Social Work" important?

A.: Because Doon deliberately tried to break down class and caste barriers, which still exist today, by forcing boys from relatively privileged backgrounds (and generally upper-caste families) to do manual labor in favor of the poor and the lower castes. At Tunwala, for example, an entire school was built by the students through manual labor. Similarly, volunteering at the Cheshire Homes placed upper-class/caste boys in direct contact with a segment of society that had long been shunned by "respectable" families. This was a direct assault on long-standing superstitions and traditions that had previously ruled behavior for the middle- and upper-classes.

Many schools have sprung up in recent years that cater to the upper-classes, but few require their students to perform manual labor in the service of the poor and the lower-castes. If you consider this commonplace, perhaps you could provide that information on this talk page.

Q.: why are the School Songs important?

A.: because Jana Gana Mana (the complete song) was a highly controversial choice in 1935, when Tagore made it clear that the song was pan-Indian and not in praise of the British Emperor. By choosing this song, the school deliberately set its sights on a post-British India at a time when such an outcome was not considered inevitable at all, and when other "Chief's Colleges" and similar schools were much more subservient to the British Empire. The lyrics of the song also aspire to a pan-Indian identity that would combine the many princely states and British states into a single Indian nation.

Because a third of the songs were deliberately chosen from compositions by Iqbal, who was the best-known Urdu poet at the time and former president of the Muslim League (Pakistan), but who rejected the idea of partitioning India to create an Islamic Pakistan. Combining Urdu poetry with traditional Hindu bhajjans within the same songbook was a radical concept at the time, and a deliberate attempt to create a secular school at a time of rising religious tensions in India. (There used to be a comprehensive article on Iqbal in Wikipedia that has been replaced by a single sentence -- another example of slash-and-burn "editing"?)

Because it is unusual for any school song to be later chosen as the national anthem.

Q.: is the section on "Slang & Jargon" valuable?

A.: Not particularly. It didn't add much value, and the page is probably better off with out it. Nonetheless, it would have been more polite -- certainly less arrogant -- to point that out on this discussion page.

Q.: is the material thinly sourced?

A.: Yes, and No. Much of the sourcing is from a small handful of well-written books, so the sourcing is thin in terms of quantity. Perhaps I could ask you a related question: is one good book worth a thousand tweets?

Spy99 (talk) 22:38, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Spy, I didn't even get to the part of marking what I though just needed more citations. That would have taken hours that I didn't have at the time. As I said in my edit summary, what I removed in my first edit was the stuff that didn't belong at all. Now, as to your actual points, you end all of your "questions that I should have asked" with the word "important". I know perfectly well why the sections are important; that's why, except for "school songs" (which I will discuss later) and "Slang & Jargon" (which you agree with, except for the part about me being WP:bold), I left those sections in there. Now, I'll go through each of the sections you bring up and explain, not why it is or isn't important, which isn't disputed, but why those section aren't up to GA standards, which is how I'm currently looking at the article.
 * Ethos - I was wrong to call this "promotional". However, there are only two substantial paragraphs of prose in comparison to four large quotes. Using quotations like that is not good for a number of reasons, but the most important is that they're harder to read. Have direct quotes to support you thesis is good, but only having direct quotes to explain your thesis is not so good. Furthermore, per the MOS links are frowned upon within quotes, and this would leave us with acres of black space. This section needs to be converted to being primarily prose.
 * Campus - I don't really care whether or not it has rare fauna. I care about whether or not you can source it. Again, I should have been more specific and point to the "nature" subsection as being promotional in tone, but my point stands. It says it's in the "greenest part"...that great, got a source? "Rare trees"? I love trees! I also loves sources saying so! "Immaculately-maintained" is promotional any way you look at it. There is only one source in this subsection, and it doesn't seem to back up the beauty of the campus.
 * M&M - Again, I entirely agree with you in regards to its importance. I didn't remove it, did I? However, saying stuff like "Alumni have credited these Midterms as being among their most formative and character-building experiences while at school..." is promotional, not to mention unsourced atm.
 * Social work - See above. I completely agree as to its importance, and as I said below this could easily be one of the best sections in the entire article... if it were sourced better. There's only one source for four paragraphs atm, and it's a direct quote.
 * Songs - that's all well and good, but why don't you get a source and put it into the article? Instead it just stands out as more trivia in an already laden article. As to your comment about Iqbal, that article was deleted because it was a copyright violation, not "slash-and-burn" editing. Rather ironically, I'm the editor who recreated it.
 * Slang - See WP:BOLD.
 * Thinly sourced? Yes it is. If I were to remove all the unsourced content, the article would be a fifth of its current size.
 * I'm ignoring all the comments in regards to my intelligence and maturity, but I ask that you keep that out of future remarks. Cheers, Nolelover Talk·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 23:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You keep saying material is unsourced, but the references are right there at the end of the article. Here's the WSJ article, for example, that was already cited as a reference elsewhere in this article: "Doon is an oasis in Dehra Dun, a dusty town of about 700,000, 140 miles northeast of New Delhi. Thousands of trees shade the 70-acre grounds". "To help blur class lines, boys perform menial tasks such as pruning plants or window-cleaning -- unthinkable chores for those of high social standing." "It is tremendously uplifting when you make a decision like that, when you run into an obstacle and you overcome that obstacle,"  Mr. Dutta says. So, a single reputable source backs up multiple claims spread out over several sections.
 * This article has long had a problem with maintaining a NPOV; I know that better than most because I have spent countless hours over the past 6 years deleting promotional spam, much of it originating from the school's own IP address. (It's all there in the long history of this article; way more "undos" than "dos".)  The article could certainly benefit from an outsider's perspective -- someone who hasn't been involved with writing or maintaining it -- and you could provide it, by helping to rewrite it.  For example, you make a good point about converting more of the Ethos section to prose.  I added the original quotations and created much of that section; it would be great if someone (you?) could help convert it into prose because as the original author, I am unlikely to improve upon what's already there.
 * Re. Iqbal: my apologies. I looked for the article today and it appeared to have simply vanished.
 * The basic problem with articles on schools is that the only people who care enough to add material are those who have some personal connection to the school, and they are rarely dispassionate. 90% of the input that has come in over the years has been either flat-out wrong or egregious boasting, and cleaning out the trash on a weekly basis has been a dispiriting experience.  (My acknowledgements to User:Merlaysamuel as the first person in several years to provide useful new material.)
 * Calmer now... Somewhere along the way I went from article-writer to spam-fighter, and that's burnt me out. Spy99 (talk) 01:26, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You may know that, but other reviewers, editors and readers don't know that. It's almost always better to err on the side of "redundant" sources then risk appearing as if you don't have enough.
 * I see that, and I do thank you for that. I would be happy to help with this article; as I said earlier, it surprising that an article with this subject matter has so much potential. I am currently attempting to work my way through the article section by section, but I've got a whole bunch of project going on as well.
 * Speaking of which, Iqbal is one of them. Your help there would be greatly appreciated.
 * Yes, I completely understand. Then let's try to write an article we can be as proud of as they are of their school :) <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 02:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Archive
I have taken the liberty of archiving material prior to 2009. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 02:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks
First, let me thank User:Nolelover for taking the trouble to contribute to this page. Also, to User:Spy99 for the kind words. Now, I don't feel that the Jargon & Slang section should have been removed. There are plentiful reasons for it:- I don't see the logic in removing individual houses. Can someone explain? As I said earlier, Wikipedia page of this school provides a larger window to many pupils in the world. They could have learnt about various Houses before joining the school or going there on an Exchange Programme. After all, the page should cater to students and general public alike! Furthermore, schools like Eton College have it, so why shouldn't we? I couldn't agree more with User:Spy99 when he says that a large chunk of material comes from Dosco records and books which have been published on the School. I also took the trouble to find out their ISBN numbers and put it alongside. And please don't worry about References, I am digging them up each day :) I fully understand your role and do appreciate it but, please, before slashing anything completely may I request you to discuss it? It's alright if you're going to have the last word on it but it'll be, at least, fair. Because seeing the things just slashed out/cut out so whimsically just grieves my heart, to confess. As it takes a lot of time to polish something up for inexperienced users like me :) I'll appreciate your co-operation. Thanks! Also, I do apologise for passing the page as GA. Do accept my apologies. I want to do whatever I can in making this a good article. Cheers!
 * Slang
 * Let us leave aside the fact that it was mentioned in The Wall Street Journal for which the apt reference was provided. Otherwise, it's important because the article provides a larger window to peep into the culture of the school which is given nowhere on the internet (not even the school website!) I say this because Doon participates in active Exchange Programmes and the section would have helped in making the Exchange candidates acquainted with the terms. Also, new boys before joining Doon would have looked it up. I have to re-iterate here that only the popular slang was included (WSJ Article) There are many schools who have spewed the article with their slang, one of which is St Edward's School, Oxford! Furthermore, the section lend a somewhat cheerful tone to the otherwise formidable article of Doon School. I will be grateful if this can be debated and re-introduced. It is my earnest request to you.
 * Houses
 * References
 * Request to User:Nolelover

 Merlaysamuel  Talk · Contribs 08:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * First, I also want to thank you for your contribution to the article. As Spy said earlier, it not easy to find editors who actually have a lot to add to a school article.


 * Slang - Sorry about this one, but you would be very hard pressed to find experienced editors who would agree with you that a list of slang belongs in the article. Note that although there was a source, none (or extremely few) of the actual words or phrases were listed in that source, so it doesn't help us to much. Furthermore, WP is not for indiscriminate collections of material, which is how that looks. Lastly, Take a look at WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and know that the material in St Edward's School, Oxford shouldn't be there either; it's completely unsourced and has the same problems this one has. If you think you can write a short section on the school's slang, with more sources then just a list in the WSJ (in that source, the slang itself wasn't actually discussed in the prose if I recall right), then you are welcome to add it in. However, that section would be one of the things that could easily hold this article back from GA.
 * Houses - Again, see INDISCRIMINATE. The material on the individual houses (colors, heads, etc.) is likely to be unsourced, but even if it were, what does it really add to the article? The difference between this and the Eton article is that the house listed at Eton is semi-notable in its own right. The houses at Doon are just that - houses. I hope you can see what I mean when I say that they're just like other houses at the schools. Now, I didn't remove the names of the houses. That's still in there. But listing detailed info on each one isn't going to help much. =/
 * References - Just remember that Doon's records and books written or published by them are primary sources, and hence don't carry as much weight as independent sources do. We can use them, but sparingly; another article I've been involved in might not ever make it to GA because it relies to much on self-published material.
 * I hope you have the time then, because I'll be starting a lot of discussions here at the talk. :) <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Organization of the article
There are 32 separate sections in the article (not including the separate titles for theatre and music), and this article comes off as being a bit cluttered. Before we start the writing process, can we decided on how this is going to look? A lot of the section could fit inside another nicely, so here's a few ideas:


 * 1) Move Ethos inside History, keep Ethos sub-header - This seems like a logical fit, and once the Ethos section has been rewritten it will be shorter anyway.
 * 2) Lose the Nature header - Two sentence sections are not really the best, and we don't need to specify "nature" vs. "campus". One unified Campus section would be fine.
 * 3) Life at Doon/Daily life/many others - This needs a complete overhaul. Going purely by the headers, some appear redundant (how different can Daily life versus Life at Doon be? They mean the same thing?) and other are just out there: why aren't "Clubs and societies", "Midterms and mountaineering" and "Theatre and music" part of daily life? They certainly would fit, in terms of topic. I suggest Life at Doon be renamed to something that shows that section is talking more about the actual academics, and the other sections (the three I mentioned, and maybe "Social work" and/or "Sports") be shortened and merged into Daily life.
 * 4) Speaking of theatre and music, if the title of the main section is "Theatre and music", we don't need two sections within that separating the theatre and the music. Possible rename, but this one isn't as important as the others.
 * 5) Doon and other schools - Again, really short section aren't the best. I suggest that a new lead is written for the section, and then a new section title (maybe "affiliations"?) be created and "Historic links", "Exchange programs" and part of "Associations" be merged into that.
 * 6) Public image needs a new title, and I've removed the sub-section headers from that, replacing them with semi-colons.

Thoughts? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Even better (I don't know why I didn't think of this at first), "Houses" should go inside "Campus". <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:29, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Another idea relating to #3 above: Life at Doon could be renamed "Academics at Doon/School life/Scholastics/etc. "Pupils", "Terms", "Awards" and the current content of "Daily life" will be merged there. Then a new section, "Extracurricular activities" or something, will be created to house all the material outlined above. How's that sound? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:38, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello Nolelove, Many of your ideas are quite sound. But give me a few hours as I have a very important task (non-Wiki) at hand! I'll get back and actively discuss whatever you say. Many thanks, once again.  Merlaysamuel  Talk · Contribs  08:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have implemented everything suggested above except for the Doon and other schools section. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Response
I second everything you say Nolelover but please can you be specific which stuff are you finding promotional? Also, if you can see "academic boosterism" somewhere please tell me. I am ready to re-write it all :) And thanks again for taking the trouble!  Merlaysamuel  Talk · Contribs  09:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There's not one sentence I can point to, but the tome of the whole article is overwhelmingly favorable. From sentences in the lead like "...and to instill in them a respect for the ideals of secularism, discipline and equality" to a few of the quotes in the Ethos section, to things like "While the grounds are beautiful...", there is not a word of text in here critical of the school. I'm not saying there has to be but the absence is striking, and the editors I have asked to briefly look over the article have all commented on its "fluffiness". This isn't really something we need to worry about right now - lets lay the foundation before we start adding bricks - but it is something to keep in mind. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:33, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the recent changes. I already see a Good Article in the making ;)

 Merlaysamuel  Talk · Contribs  14:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Logo
Why is the logo relegated to the very bottom of the article? As a general rule, logos are the lead image in an infobox, but that isn't the case here and there are two hidden notes in the infobox which I'll copy here: "" I'm not sure what led to this note being placed, and then responded to etc., but I think the i-box needs a change. With no disrespect meant towards MS, the current image (File:Doon Main Building.jpg) isn't a very good representation of the school as a whole. If we had, say, a frontal image of the main building that might be different, but I don't think that the one office is a good shot whwen we can use either the logo or the close-up of that lamp (File:Doon School Logo.jpg). MS, I assume you have some personal experience with the school: Is the lamp of knowledge used by itself or is the wording and the blue background also part of the logo? I'm inclined to go with File:Doon school logo.gif either way. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I share the same feelings as you for the infobox image. After all, a Buttress of the main building of the school doesn't signify anything! I am in the process of getting an apt image for the infobox. Till then, may I request you not to change it with File:Doon school logo.gif and let it remain at the bottom. I personally placed it at the bottom for mainly 3 reasons:-

I accepted everything you said but please don't overrule me this time :) I'll soon get a perfect picture for the info-box!  Merlaysamuel  Talk · Contribs   15:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's resolution is pathetic. Not at all meant for infobox!
 * It just makes one notice the wikimediacommons link below it :)
 * It perfectly fits there with WikiMediacommons box.

Recent changes to the Doon School page
I'm copying this from my talk page; this is a better place for discussion about the article. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for cleaning up the article. But I strongly feel that 'Historic links' and 'Exchanges should be out of Affiliations'. That is because it gives out the wrong idea. A school is affiliated to an examination board or an organization NOT other schools! I hope you understand what I'm saying. Let us change it. Merlaysamuel (talk) 07:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Not ignoring this, but gotta go out for a bit. Will reply when I get back. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why not change the title of the section? I put "affiliations" there more as a placeholder; I didn't expect that to be the final name. However, it doesn't make sense to completely remove certain sections, since all of them are about the same thing - the Doon School's ties in the academic world. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Infobox
Without further info, the word "mall" is only in the infobox, so it really doesn't help. Also, what's with the breaks? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, I don't know what you mean by "the word "mall" is only in the infobox". See: http://www.doonschool.com/contact-us . It is the proper address of the school. As for the breaks, they just lend a more systematic and uncluttered look to the infobox. I learnt this, in fact, from Featured & Good Articles Good schools section. I thought you'd like it :P !

Merlaysamuel (talk) 16:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's it actual address? There no street/number, its just "The Mall? That's odd, but eh, fine by me. As for the line breaks, its better to use separate parameter for each piece of info. For example, instead of having "|location = (whatever we have now)" you would have "|location = (street address) |city = (city) |state = (state)" and so on. See Template:Infobox school for the full list. That will create automatic line breaks, I think. I wasn't sure if you were trying to get around those automatic breaks by creating your own, lol. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Haha! Yup that's it. One reason is that Dehradun is almost synonymous with Doon School. Also, it's such a huge property (campus) that there is simply no block or street no.! It's just a humongous chunk of land on the Mall Road, hence the Mall :) Merlaysamuel (talk) 16:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm...we might want to clarify that then, perhaps in the first line of the campus section. Otherwise, its like....what is "that mall" doing there? Thanks for clarifying though. :) <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Done as suggested!

Merlaysamuel (talk) 17:09, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Making the lead stronger
If this has to become a Good Article, we need to work on the lead of the article which is very weak at the moment. User:Nolelover, User:Spy99 I have begun working on it. Merlaysamuel (talk) 15:39, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. I'm a little busy IRL atm, so I can't really work too heavily here but I'm definitely watching everything y'all do. Just remember to look at WP:LEAD, even if just the opening paragraphs; the lead should summarize the article, probably shouldn't list statistics that the article can give later and doesn't need to use references if the statements are made (and referenced) later on. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

One question...
Merlay, I've been kinda waiting for you (not like really waiting like you've held me up - just hanging out) to add all the sources you can before I start any rewriting or heavy editing; that way I know what I can say and source. Are you pretty much done with that? Do you have all the 'easy' sources? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey! I can't really say about the sources. But I think they're pretty much there. Whenever I see a newspaper article on Doon that I've missed out on, I add to the appropriate references. But yeah, references are now quite a lot anyway! Merlaysamuel (talk) 16:55, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

School number
It should be noted that some of the featured school articles like Amador valley carry their school number with the heading of 'information'. Can we do that? (Presuming if featured articles can, even we can) Merlaysamuel (talk) 13:28, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure what you are referring to...Oh wait, do you mean the phone number? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yup, phone number :)

Merlaysamuel (talk) 19:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines, like the proverbial computer, says no; citing WP:NOTDIRECTORY which does indeed appear to say no as well. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Demiurge. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 20:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggestions for GA
I've been asked at WT:WPSCH to give suggestions for getting GA status on this article. This article is considered to be of top-importance, so is clearly a good candidate for GA/FA status. My first general advice would be look into WP:WPSCH/AG, which gives a lot of helpful information on what a school article should have, including section information. Looking at existing GA and FA school articles is also a good idea, such as Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney for GA, and Amador Valley High School for FA. They will give some guidance on what standards are required, though every school is different, so glance at the full lists at WP:WPSCH. Before going for GA, I would suggest considering requesting a peer review, as other people who notice things I won't, and GA reviewers will nitpick a lot more. On the whole, the article is of good quality, and its status as B-class is not in doubt. I therefore think it is an appropriate addition to the "Potential good article candidates" list at WP:WPSCH.

Upon reviewing the article, a few issues do come to my attention. The history section does look rather incomplete, with little information on recent history, and the dominating founding ethos section. The use of the File:SRDas.jpg file in this section currently does not follow policy, as there is no fair use rationale for its use in The Doon School article (there must be one for every article it is used in). Also, while there might be a case for using the image in the person's biography - the case for use in the school article is more dodgy, and I am not convinced that this use passes the WP:NFCC. Distractions over copyright issues can sink GA candidacies, so I would recommend resolving this. Also, removing the white border around the image should be done if possible.

On the campus section, avoid having references mid-sentence; put them at the end of a sentence after the full stop. I have fixed another ref which was mid-word, which clearly was an error. Also, the brackets around the sentence on Salim Ali doesn't look right and probably should be removed. On the whole the section needs to flow better with correct and consistent grammar, for instance "house(es)", "housemaster(s)", and "housemistress(es)" are not proper nouns, so these should not be capitalized except at the beginning of a sentence. It is good to see images here, though I would avoid large galleries of images in the article - just select some of the best quality images to appear on the sides and create a gallery for the rest on Commons. A Commons gallery can be linked using - I see there is already a category with a link.

In academic life, there is some unreferenced sections which need sources, along with some unreferenced comments such as "nothing came of these threats after Mr. Swami discovered that Doon had stronger political connections than he did". Is all the italics necessary? See MOS:ITALICS. There also appears to be some referencing issues in the Student life section.

On references in general, while these do not need to be perfect for GA, it is still good to have these looking professional. Some of the citations are using bare URLs, there is at least one dead link that needs fixing, and there should be a consistent dating style (since yyyy-mm-dd is predominant, I would stick to that). The "Notable alumni" section and the sub-article, List of Doon School alumni, seems to be reliant on general lists of references rather than inline citations. Ideally every individual listed should be linked directly to at least on citation.

I think that should be nothing to get the ball rolling. Best of luck and happy editing! CT Cooper · &#32;talk 15:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your suggestions CT! They certainly make a lot of sense. I'll begin the task advised by providing references for the unreferenced section. Thanks, once again!

Merlaysamuel (talk) 15:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much CT Cooper. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 21:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

How up-to-date is "The Andover of India" article from the Wall Street Journal?
I'm wondering how much things changed with the former headmaster (regarding heating, for instance) and the present one (is there now a Dalit quota at the school, for instance). The URL for the article is http://online.wsj.com/ad/article/ii-andover-india.html?mod=sponsored_by_incredibleindia.Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 15:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Merlay? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi! I recently read in one of the school's newspaper (which is online) that the proposition is underway of boys being allowed to get room heaters. Although, central-heating is a definite no. Also, there is no quota for anyone. But anyone can apply and they don't mind taking a Dalit or a Naxalite if he's of decent academic merit.

Otherwise, some things have changed which are (according to the school website):- Now most of the boys go abroad for Undergraduate studies as opposed to 30% mentioned in the article. Merlaysamuel (talk) 07:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Main building image

 * Hey nole, can you transfer the recent main building image (1915) File:Main Building of the Doon School in 1915.jpg to the Commons? I have no clue how it is to be done. THanks!

Merlaysamuel (talk) 08:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I have no idea either... <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 17:06, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll work on it when I get a chance. Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 20:02, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ - see the last talk section (I'd forgotten about this one - sorry!). Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 22:52, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Good Article Preparation
Hey Nole, Cooper, Allens, Ben, Spy, et al

What more needs to be done on this page? I haven't a clue. Through my novice-like eyes the page seems complete :P Suggestions? Advice? Thanks! &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 15:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well...


 * Lead tightened
 * Probably more info in the history section (what happened from opening day to DS-75? we've got nothing :
 * Do you think you could get more sources for Clubs and societies?
 * Big copyedit from someone who really knows what they're doing...they are a few willing to do that, or we could ask at the GOCE...this will be almost the very last thing
 * That's about it, as far as bigger stuff goes :P <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 17:05, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your suggestions. But, I am afraid you are wrong in saying "what happened from opening day to DS-75?". That stuff is NOT history. If wikipedia school pages start stating that the article will be endless. The history should comprise how the school came to be. All of that history is sufficient for this Doon School page and everything is there in the article. And I have acted on rest of your suggestions like digging up links for societies sections. thanks for pointing it out, they were lacking indeed! cheers :) &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 17:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, the school history section need not be endless - just restrict it to material for which there is at least one reliable, secondary source (by secondary in this case, I'm meaning non-Doon School originated and non-Old Boys' association created). If that gets to be too much, then some combination of the following can be done:
 * The History section can be split off into a separate article.
 * Only include material cited by more than one (independent) secondary source.
 * Only include material that a reliable, secondary source considers important in the long run.
 * In terms of copy-editing, I encourage listing it once other stuff is completed at the Guild of Copy-Editors Requests page. If nobody else takes it, I'll do a thorough job of it (haven't had time) after I finish with another couple of copyediting jobs that I promised to do for people. Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 20:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh no, I'm not talking like "Such and such happened on Tuesday, and on Wednesday there was a shortage of milk, and...", but just a general overview of what they were doing...for example, was there any impact on the school by WWII, things like that. We don't have to be very specific, but it's odd to have such a comprehensive article with such a large gap in coverage. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 20:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm..i understand that there is a dearth of sources for Doon's history on web. It's all in their books...anyway, will work out something... &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 12:27, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

G.A. Discussion
But why do random editors keep GANing this article? One IP and one two-edit newbie have nominated it in the last week, and we are not ready. Can we agree not to nominate for at least another couple weeks? I'm going to undo the GAN...hope nobody minds - we really need a good copyedit for example. I could see us failing just on that. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 13:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * You are right.Justice007 (talk) 13:56, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah...sure! Fine by me. But, on the other hand, what's the point of waiting for 2 weeks and meanwhile not improving the page? As of now, nobody seems to be doing anything on the page. Nole, if you've got any big edits/ideas to implement please do, by all means. There's no point in wasting time and dragging it. Once this is done, I want to move onto other articles and make serious contributions BUT not without making this a good one. I believe that'll be my policy on Wikipedia - heavy contributions on one page at a time. I hope you guys don't mind my ramble :P But let's get on with this page and do whatever's lacking. I am trying to do everything I can for References, updating fail to find something Big that is to be done on this page. So, please, if there are any major issues get them out of the box and let's head for the Big RUn.... :) Cheers! &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 14:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, I've got the edit box open right now....and just so you know, my first GA took like nine months, so I apologize if y'all ever think I'm slowing us down...this is racing for me. Now, Merlay, while you're here: how many of the books in the Publications section and reference do you actually own? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Nole, i hope you didn't get me wrong. I am not saying that let's rush through it. I'm just saying what are we waiting for if there is nothing that we're doing? Where are the big edits that are needed? It's quite funny that you ask about the books in the publications section because till yesterday I had none. While browsing through a bookshop, I found the first in the list - Chota HAzri A Dosco's yatra. So yes, I have one book which is full of history/events/and whatnots on Doon (of course, it's a very attractive coffee-table) Okay, so what's your point now? &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 14:24, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Aww, I was hoping you had the Sixty years book. No big deal though, thanks. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The book I have now was launched on DS-75 so it's more than 60 years of coverage. Okay, so what now about this article? Are we going anywhere with it? P.S:- Sorry for changing the title of this discussion, the earlier one seemed too casual for WIkipedia. Don't mind Nole, please!
 * Nah, I don't mind, but I strongly suggest you don't do that with anyone else, because many editors will get extremely pissed if you touch their comments. Technically its not allowed, so do be careful. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As for the article, I just discovered a big problems with dates that I'm working on. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:51, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi, sorry! Why can't the DS-75 logo be used in the template? IT has fair use image rationale, after all. &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 15:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Made some changes to the template regarding colour. Introduced the colours of the school. &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 15:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It has a FUR for this page. Because the image is transcluded onto many more pages, it would needs fair use rationales for all of them too, which would be impossible...there's just no reason we could make up to have the image on all of the other pages too. That means we either need a free image that still makes sense (no logos), or no image at all (which is much more common). <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:16, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay. but what's the meaning of {edit conflict} ? &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 15:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the colors BTW...much easier to see and read then previously. Oh, and edit conflict is when I open the edit box, but then someone else saves the page before I do. That little template just let's people know that we posted at about the same time, so I may have accidentally erased some of their response. The very first paragraph of Help:Edit conflict explains better than I just did. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

HAha, okay...for a moment i thought you got damn serious. I foolishly took the 'conflict' part literally :) &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 15:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops....lol, you know, that does look weird. Like I'm prefacing my statement with a "We are in disagreement"...lol, not quite that harsh...just a technical thing. Happens whenever lots of people are editing a page at the same time. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Moving the article
I'm going to move the article to Doon School per WP:THE. Don't see any evidence that "the" is part of the proper name, and this way we'll have some consistency with other article (It's not called "List of The Doon School alumni", is it? :P). I hope this will be uncontroversial. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

No, Isuggest you don't move it because it is The Doon School and NOT just Doon School. I can say this with 100% confidence.They use The Doon School in all their official documents. So Do not change it. It is "The Doon School". It is also important to keep in mind that there are 100s of schools named Doon School and 'The' is the factor that differentiates it from the other Doons. RickTyers (talk) 17:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * After a quick look through our sources, I don't believe that is right: "In the 75 years of its existence, the Doon School in Dehra Dun", "So why not turn Doon School co-ed", "Try as they might, the Doon School", "Doon School", "ended the four-year reign of Doon School", and those were just the first five independent RS. AFter that I randomly selected three more: "when Doon School's 180 old boys", "Tom Burridge travelled to the Doon School" and "At the Doon School". It's pretty clear to me that sources call it the Doon School (lowercase "t"), so we should to. We even use "the Doon School" six out of the seven times that phrase is used in this article, excluding beginnings of sentences and proper nouns. And, well, if "the" is the only thing that makes this Doon stand out... <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 17:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The website syas The Doon School adn NOT just Doon School. Mr Nole, news articles drop the 'The' while writing for ease. The title should be proper on Wikipedia.It is the best encyclopaedia to turn to therefore there shouldn't be any discrepancy. Please change it to The RickTyers (talk) 17:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Nole can make a Redirect for it? &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 17:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The Doon School NOT Doon School

It is, indeed, The Doon School instead of merely Doon School. That 'The' is the part of school's proper/official name though it suggests otherwise. It is not used for emphasising that this is THE real Doon School but, in fact, all the documents/memorandums are signed off as The Doon School. You are free to check on the Internet. In the coffee-table book I have on Doon School, there are sacns of 75 year-old documents (the first official paperwork for the establishment of the school) and it all says The Doon School. So just to elucidate my point, check this:- http://www.doonschool.com/images/document/admission_form.pdf It says The Doon School. If you're making it Doon School from The Doon School, you might as well turn the new Oscar-winning movie The Artist (film) into Artist(film). Once again, with all humility, it should be The Doon School, my friends :) Don't let this happen! I hope I'm getting my point across. &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Merlaysamuel - Seeing all this, and your comments over the past couple of days, my friendly advice is that you should take a step away from the article (and perhaps Wikipedia) for a few days. I can spot the early signs of a "wikimeltdown" and you seem to be heading for one. Go read WP:OWN, which is all about people who presume to own an article; then go read WP:SPA, about people who focus all their efforts onto just one topic - which isn't necessarily a bad thing until it becomes obsessive and those people start exhibiting ownership behaviour. I humbly suggest that a short break to contemplate what you want to get from Wikipedia will do you the world of good. --Bob Re-born (talk) 19:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Nolelover,your move is in question,it is not Doon School,but The Doon School.Newspapers sometimes don't refer exact names etc.Don't you see monogram or logo of the school,there is visible "The Doon School",and there are sources too.Rest you know better.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 19:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Per WP:DEFINITE I support Noelover's move. It was the right thing to do. --Bob Re-born (talk) 19:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In the UK, the articles University of York, University of Manchester, and University of Nottingham are three examples where "The" is omitted from the article title. --Bob Re-born (talk) 19:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay. Kinda busy atm, so replies will be spaced out on my part. Also, redirect ✅. Now, as to the school calling themselves "The"...well, I kinda expect that, especially in headers and official documents. Most schools will do that, depending on their name. Look at http://www.arizona.edu/. They clearly use "The" in the header. However, and this is what all three of you guys pointed out, what the school calls themselves is not quite as important as what the press does. I know that seems absolutely ridiculous, but see THE. I'll copy this part: "When in doubt, do not use the definite article for universities. A definite article should be applied only if The is used in running text throughout university materials and if that usage has caught on elsewhere." Now, usage of "The" has not caught on elsewhere, which is why I moved it. Looking through the references we have, I didn't see any uses of "The Doon School" that weren't at the beginning of sentences of other proper nouns styles. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 19:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay fair enough, but in articles of Uni York.Manchester& Nottingham please notice that the article begins with a THE which is bold whereas in Doon School it's not even bold. So I am just making it now....!

&#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 20:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I think Bob made a sound suggestion up there. It is indeed time for me to take a long break. To confess, I have been devoting too much time on Wiki. But thanks a lot everyone, in this short while I have learnt a lot. And thanks Bob. I am sure Nole and others will handle this page well. I have complete faith in them. And as for my last wish before leaving, I'll be deeply grateful if the Doon School template can be saved and I have given a reason on the deletion nomination page. Please take a look. Apart from the reasons given (other schools use it as well), I believe it was the one contribution to Wiki which gave me the most satisfaction, for some matter (apart from that being my first template.) So long guys, thanks Bob,Allens,Nole,Justice,Spy,RcSprinter, for teaching me invaluable lessons here. Have had a great time. Went from a mere WIki reader to an editor. Never really thought editing wiki could be so much fun. Thanks, once again. Good luck with this article everyone! Au Revoir!

&#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 20:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Best wishes Merlay...hope to see you back when you can..I know how you feel though. In fact, I think this page could do with a little break...I'm feeling like taking one too. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 21:59, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Note
 * Hi, Bob,I have no mood to go in details,but please see the same articles which you gave for supporting your opinion,as University of York, University of Manchester, and University of Nottingham,all three articles begin "The" bold letter,now question is that you reverted edit by &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; saying WP:ownership behaviour,what is your behaviour then??. In regarding "The Doon School" I am pretty sure that is the exact and proper name of the school,there are sources too,there is no any doubt.You are talking different thing and Nolelover,other than you,he has the logic to make the point,though I, in that point disagree with him.When policy states "When in doubt",this does not mean your decission is valid,you should discuss the matter first on the talk page before revertig or moving any thing.As you understand,for you,these are articles,please take a look at them.The College of New Jersey,The College of Law, The School,The School at Columbia University,The School (UK),there are more that kind. I hope someone will assist us in this regard. Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 21:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Further

1.Work for peace, Dalai Lama tells students 9th line
 * I already had a bit idea that there will be no reply,nevertheless,discussion is not closed.Avoiding further unnecessaory conversation,I am giving here some of sources in which "questionable move" by Nolelover,is appearing more questionable.Please everyone take a look at these sources to decide what is correct,what is not?.

2.About The Doon School 4th line

3.About School second line

4.The Doon School first line

5.NEWSLETTER OF THE DOON first line

6.54th Annual All-India Chuckerbutty Memorial 12th line,(here are both)

7.Pearl Academy of Fashion hosts Doon School Students third line

8.The Doon School, Dehradun third line

9.Doon School 7th line

10.Arts and Media Centre at the Doon School second line

11.The Doon School 14th line

12.The Doon School – Dehradun 34th line (here are both)

Above are the some sources,there are more,I think these are enough to understand and accept the truth and reality.I know the blunder of our part of media and press.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 14:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm...thank you Justice...I hadn't seen anything like these. In this case, can we get some other opinions? I still lean towards "the Doon School", but obviously "The Doon School" is a possibility. If there isn't any consensus on this, we should default back to "The Doon School" since there wasn't any discussion leading towards my first move. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 16:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Nolelover,You did as accordance policies,yes we need WP:consensus,if not,you suggest then default back to?.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. If there is not explicit consensus favoring keeping the article like it is now, or if we somehow "tie" if that makes sense, then I will move the article back (or have an admin do it). <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 21:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

HOLA! Are all of you twits or something :) ?? The world's becomes a global village by internet and you can't finds out whether it is the doon or just doon. hahaha.. my brotheres it is indeed The Doon Schooool not doon school. you wills be laughed at in india for making this silly mistake::)))
 * I'd be willing to bet that this editor (‎User:Hamburger12345) is also User:TheJoneald and/or User:ProudEtonian. Anyone feel like taking this further? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 19:31, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi,may I ask we should learn manners.Justice007 (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't mind - I moved your comment Justice. This is purely circumstantial evidence, but I think this guy is using multiple accounts...not quite sockpuppeting, but I don't think he's here to really make this article better. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 21:40, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Never mind,and I am familair this kind of behaviours of the guys from that subject of the areas.God bless you.Cheers.Justice007 (talk) 21:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ha, yes, I'd forgot...You've seen this before. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 21:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Finally I think now there should not be any question?.Thanks for all who contributed in this regard.Cheers.Justice007 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Though redirect move has been done by Merlaysamuel here,for further confirmation,despite reliable sources,I have direct contacted by telephone The Doon School,Dehradun,India,I spoke one of the official person (Lady),she confirmed "The Doon School" is the exact and proper name,and "The" is not used as an article (grammatically).

I know Justice, I myself confirmed by checking their dozen Registration forms and IT IS THE DOON SChool indeed. It would be a grave mistake on Wikipedia's part to show just the Doon School. Thank you! &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 14:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Merlay, I don't mind that the school is "The" and not "the", but I would have really appreciated it if you had let the above discussion finish before taking this into your own hands. As I said multiple times, I was fully prepared to move the article back unless there was clear consensus that we should call it Doon School. Instead, you moved it back after just a couple days citing primary sources that don't really hold water in this discussion anyway. No, it would not be a "grave mistake" for the article not to have "The" for just a couple days while we hash this out. Furthermore, there are subpages you didn't move that need to be done. I know you are taking WP:bold to heart, but as I said earlier some other people would get extremely mad at some of your actions. Please be more careful in the future. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 22:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I really do apologise I didn't mean to offend anybody neither establish something as rubbish as "this-is-my-page"!! But Nole, in matters like these the primary sources are, in fact, the most important ones. We don't care what the media calls or how it mentions the school, what is important is what the original school name is! And what we had done was remove the 'The' which has been there for 76+ years and still counting. Of course, it would have been a grave mistake but, yes, I fully agree that waiting for two days wouldn't have made a difference. And I heartily apologise for that once again but, to confess, this discussion really wasn't going anywhere and we wouldn't have known when the 2 days became a month. So, once again, do forgive me everybody, especially Bob, because really I have no intentions to own this article as he puts it and yes, i was a bit hurt to hear that after i contributed so much. I detest any kind of self-boasting but imagine that you've edited and improved a page by miles and someone comes and tell you you're acting like the owner of the page. That is wrong and hurtful. I think I may have gone too far now to divulge my feelings but let me assure all of you I have the highest regard for you people and We ARe ALL EQUAL!! &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 06:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Merlay, that's just wrong. Please read WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." That is policy.
 * As to the discussion, of course it wasn't going to go on for months. If there were no comments after one week, a common time for discussions to go on (it was moved back after less than three days), I was planning on moving it back. Now, what are you referring to with Bob saying that you owned that article? Obviously that's not true, but I don't remember him saying that anywhere...? <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 14:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Bob said that at the beginning of this 'moving the article' thread. anyway, i apologise if i have offended you. that was not my intention. &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ahh, I had missed that. Nah, don't apologize. I was a little rude - that's my fault. Article is improving, and that's the main thing :) Cheers, <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 15:53, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * ) Sure it is.

&#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 16:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

A Dosco here
Hello (whomsoever),

My name is Karan and would like to contribute to this page. I study at The Doon School in Grade 9. I am extremely interested in Computer Sciences and Programme developing and, perhaps, editing Wikipedia will give me the platform to venture into the world of computer programming. I am hoping that I'll learn a few lessons here. So please help me in making this a better page. What better place to start than your own school page =) ?? After reading the basic rules of Wikipedia, I have understood that a quality article has to be neutral and, on that note, let me assure (whomsoever) that being a Doon School student I will not engage in any boastful remarks or comments. In fact, I'll not let it happen. So if there are any guidelines/rules/conditions for editing this page, please let me know. And I hope you (whomsoever) will allow me to contribute despite me being a Dosco :P No conflict of interest on my part. Will I be allowed then? Thank you Wikipedia.

Regards,

Karan

DoscoinDoon (talk) 10:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there Karan, and welcome to Wikipedia! First, there is absolutely no requirement to edit most pages here (unless they've been, say, hit with a lot of vandalism and are temporarily locked). If you have something to contribute, we encourage you to be bold and do it! Now, as you can surely imagine there are many rules to follow and you will undoubtedly run afoul of a few of them as you learn - don't worry about those instances though. Everyone here was once a newer editor too, and if you learn from your mistakes with a good attitude, you'll find that things become much easier as time goes by. I do appreciate your willingness to disclose your conflict of interest regarding Doon, and I doubt that will be much of a problem; many of us edit subjects that we like, or articles about places we have been or attended. If there's anything else I can help you with, my talk page is always open. :) Cheers, <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 17:09, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * One suggestion, Karan, is that if you can get your newly created biographies of headmasters long enough quickly enough, while keeping them well referenced and avoiding any close paraphrasing, you should consider submitting some of them for Did you know? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Sounds interesting. Will surely do...thanks! DoscoinDoon (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!
Thank you Mr. Nole and Justice for welcoming me (despite the fact that I'm a dosco) In a couple of days, I'll have made all the headmasters' pages (2 made, 3 to go) but what strikes me is the fact that not long ago this article was called The Doon School and I see that it is now named just Doon School with a Ridirection. Can you please teach me how to change the name of a page? Because this page should be The Doon School and not Doon School. In fact, if you don't mind let me share an anecdote with you:- Our new headmaster(well, joined in 2009) is a stickler for this (and he's right actually :P) So, during our 75th Founder's Day, press conferences were being held everyday and he used to shout on all journalists mentioning on why they just write Doon School and not The Doon School (of course, in humour). He told us in one assembly that the astute journalist replied "Sir, it's like wasting newspaper ink". :) No wonder then, that throughout the DS-75 coverage, it was referred to as just Doon School and not The Doon School. But, yes, he was right indeed. It is The Doon School and not Doon School and our schoolmasters often get irritated when the 'The' is dropped. Because they think it relegates the school with other Doon School in the valley of Dehradun. I believe there is some grain of truth in that. Anyway, so can someone please teach me how to add the The? Thank you messrs.

DoscoinDoon (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's done by moving the page, which your account will be able to do in a few days. However, there's a discussion about what the correct page title should be, further up this page, so you should seek consensus there first. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

thank you merlay sir
thank you for accepting my cj miller article. i will work hard on it. DoscoinDoon (talk) 14:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Headmasters
Hello editors, This is to inform you that I'm introducing a section in History called Headmasters. My text is almost ready and I believe it'll make the History section stronger. I'll be looking forward to your suggestions/opinions. We can work on it together but once I've introduced it, I might gain some confidence :P So, please don't mind, if you find something wrong with it, you can always straighten things out. I'll be doing that in a couple of minutes. Thanks very much! DoscoinDoon (talk) 09:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I have added the headmasters section. Hope you like it!! :)) DoscoinDoon (talk) 12:33, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks great :) That was exactly the kind of thing we needed to expand the history section. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 23:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Post-PR Comments
I was asked to comment on the peer review, which was recently closed before I could get a chance. I only had time to have a quick look at it, but just some comments. Sorry if this looks like a disappointing peer review, but this is about all the time I have. In general, copy-editing is still needed. Great work on the article nonetheless. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  21:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The lead does not need citations unless you have quotations or very controversial and likely-to-be-challenged information.
 * "by Satish Ranjan Das.Its first headmaster" - spacing typo.
 * "The school enrolls boys aged 13 in January and April of each year." - does it only enroll boys aged 13? Or is this just a minimum age requirement and students above that threshold can enroll?
 * Newspaper names should always be italicized.
 * Possible comma splice here: "Arthur Foot had never visited India before accepting the position, and knew little of Dehradun beyond what he found after consulting an Atlas, he noted that it appeared to be surrounded by forests and close to mountains, and the possibilities of outdoor recreation and mountaineering appeared to have influenced his decision as much as the chance to create a completely new type of school in India." (should the comma after "Atlas" be a full stop/period instead?)
 * In the same section, cquote should be quote. Cquotes are not used as block quotes and should not be.
 * Watch for clarification needed tags.
 * "jumped" is too informal here: "Even with no prior experience in India he jumped at the opportunity to join Foot because of the chance to implement Hahn's ideas"
 * "three to four day" - hyphen between "four" and "day".
 * Bare urls should be formatted per WP:CITE (I think that's the right WP page).


 * Hello penguin, thank you very much for your review. Being a Dosco, I'll be more than happy to clarify the aforementioned queries:-

Otherwise, will work on the suggestions.....thanks!! DoscoinDoon (talk) 11:15, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "by Satish Ranjan Das. Its first headmaster....." is not a typo as far as I can see...because it goes on to talk about ae foot
 * A pupil gets two chances to sit for the entrance exam (in case he's unsuccessful the first time). If you get through in first attempt (age 13) you join in April, otherwise you try again and then if you make it, you join in February (age 14). So, for example:- x (age 13) couldn't make it for April 2011 admissions. x appears again for entrance (&interview) in Nov-Dec 2011 and successfully joins in February 2012 (supposedly age 14). The bottomline is - only two chances to appear for the exam. You either join in D-form or appear again and join in C-form (next year) [It was bit of a ramble but I'm hoping it clarified matters :P]
 * Just want to add my thanks for the review by Penguin, and Dosco, I had already fixed the typo in the first sentence. The problem was that there wasn't a space between the full stop and the word "Its". Easily fixed :) <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 18:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You're all welcome. Thank you for the clarification Dosco! — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  01:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

For Nolelover.
Yup...another copyvio...thanks for pointing that out. However, it was so obviously copied that even your copyedit wasn't enough (a reviewer would still say it looked copied). I just had to remove it, although anyone is free to completely rephrase it and reinsert it. I also added "whose" instead of "Foot's", which I thought I had done before. <b style="color:FireBrick;">Nolelover</b> <b style="color:Gold">Talk</b>·<b style="color:Gold">Contribs</b> 23:02, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Nole,I know you are busy with other things but I need your assistance,my copyedits are not final,I mostly ask you to review my copyedits,and you always did it best.Now here I did copyedits not for proper English but for WP:Copyvio,that I have learnt from you.Please look at this line 8-9.I do not remember others where I had seen.It is Ok,no problems.Other thing,I and then you did copyedit this and it has been changed to old version with remarks here.Do you consider it OK?. I asked him on his talk page but he did not reply.Thanks.Justice007 (talk) 18:33, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * OK,I have added content,please check it and make more suitable if needed?.Justice007 (talk) 23:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

&#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 06:40, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Justice,Nole...if in 'he did not reply' 'he' refers to me, I'd love to bring to your notice that I replied quickly to your (Justice's) post on my talk page but you might have missed it thinking that I'll reply on your talk page. Anyway, if a better phrase crops up in my mind, I'll improve it. Thanks for clearing out the misconceptions though. Cheers :)


 * It's OK,Nole has solved.Justice007 (talk) 09:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Doon School Alumni References
Hi editors, If you look at the article List of Doon School alumni, you'll notice that there are barely any references. Actually, it lists source books (primary sources) which is fine, but now I'm going to provide reference (from the net) wherever i can. Just wanted to let you know about my move. Thanks! &#91;&#91;User:Merlaysamuel&#124;Merlaysamuel&#93;&#93; (talk) 07:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Protection
HEllo editors,

Due to recent serious cases of Vandalism (very likely by the same person), I'm taking the liberty to ask for semi-protection of the page. Thanks!

Have moved main building picture (top public domain picture on the page) to Commons
Following the instructions at Moving files to the Commons, I've moved one of the pictures to Commons. I had to do some editing on what the program that did it (CommonsHelper, IIRC) produced, but I think it's usable. Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 22:50, 12 March 2012 (UTC)