Talk:The Downward Spiral

Concept exploration lacking
The discussion of the album's concept is really biased and unimaginative. Surely someone has a more interesting and though-provoking interpretation of the album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.154.95.133 (talk • contribs)
 * That, and it was clearly cut & paste from another website, so I removed it. &mdash; RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 10:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, not only is it still there in the article (1 year later) and still uncited, but it is, as someone said, totally unimaginative and blasé. It's also presented as FACT, not an interpretation of Reznor's lyrics. Chris 19:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Dual Disc Video Correction
To whomever manages this page, I wanted to say that all 3 music videos on Dual Disc version are all done in both 5.1 Surround and Stereo, this is a misconception due to the fact that they screwed up on the menu of the disc, it makes it look as though only Closer has both, what they meant was "Play all in 5.1 Surround or Play all in Stereo". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.187.169.190 (talk • contribs)

Trivia Incorrect?
On the subject of looping sounds on "Reptile" ... somebody put 'citation needed' on the metal clanks being from Leviathan. The first time I watched Leviathan, I jumped out of my chair because I recognized the clanks as being used in "Reptile". How can we cite this? Has anybody written about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.41.235 (talk) 21:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"The looping female voice that appears on "Reptile" is a sample from The Texas Chain Saw Massacre." I don't seem to remember a looping female voice in "Reptile." Maybe the original editor meant "The Becoming?" That would make more sense, I KNOW there's a looping female voice in that song. But I don't know for sure if it was a typo, so I'm afraid to change it. If anyone knows if this is a typo, please fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drewcifer3000 (talk • contribs)

Listen to "Reptile" at 5:05. Is this the sound that is being referred to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by NickD (talk • contribs)

It could be, but without a source, we cannot make a claim like that. -- Reaper  X  20:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The song meant to be referenced here is actually "Reptile", "The Becoming" is actually a typo. (there are a bunch of voices in the "crowd" being looped throughout THAT song, lol.) But on "Reptile" at about 5:05, the sample is from a scene in "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" with one of the girls in the movie whispering "Kirk, help!". That sound is looped a few times before closing the song. Also the rest of this section is correct. A sample from an Iggy Pop record (The Idiot) is used in "Closer" and "Mr. Self Destruct" blatantly opens with a loop from THX-1138. I doubt I would have to make an Ogg Theora video of comparisons here. I am just as adamant about accuracy as everyone here and appreciate all efforts to meet that goal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Technolust (talk • contribs)

On "Reptile" the loop of a female voice at 5:06 is taken from The Texas Chain Saw Massacre. On the DVD around 31:00, Kirk and Pam run down a hill and she makes those sounds. 75.65.254.46 (talk) 06:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)B

I'm not sure about the THX-1138 reference; i heard it was supposed to synch up with the first scene from the film Begotten (E. E. Mehrige) where God is disembowling himself with a razor. i've seen both films but i'm not sure which idea i prefer, i always thought the title suited the God suicide idea more though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.76.51 (talk) 00:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

rip
Entire concept exploration is ripped from a dissertation posted to the internet on 1998, wouldn't be as pissed off if it was cited as a source at least. At the other extreme, should be removed shouldn't it?

I think it would be ideal to cite it, and then reword a lot of it so that not only is it no longer direct plagiarism, but is also in a more Encyclopedic format. D Boland 19:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the concept description, since it's not only ripped from some place, but also uses lyrics, which repeat in a separate section anyway (which is also going to be deleted - lyrics websites exist not only for the sole purpose of grabbing money from advertising companies). If it is so important to the article, it would be better to write it from scratch. Litis 14:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My bad, there's no lyrics section. I must be hallucinating... Litis 14:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Chart table
Regarding, my main point of contention is the legend
 * "—" denotes releases that did not chart.

I don't think it can be interpreted any other way. –Pomte 16:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see what your point was now. But I don't think it can hurt to be clear.  Besides, it's lifted directly form the NIN discography article. Drewcifer (talk) 16:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

cover art artist?
Who did the cover art for this and the singles? Шизомби (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Russell Mills (artist) –Pomte 11:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Friedrich Nietzsche
Is the song heresy a reference to Friedrich Nietzsche's God is Dead philosophy? Or is it just an expression of dislike for Christianity? If it's a reference to Friedrich Nietzsche I think it should be mentioned. KMFDM FAN (talk!) 15:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Controversy
In the controversy section, the word "bullshit" is censored. It's censored on the source, but it's one of the only instances of profanity that is censored there. Since Wikipedia shouldn't be censored and the quote would be accurate, should it be changed to "bullshit" or left as-is? Nich148 9 (talk) 23:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I changed it. DaddyTwoFoot (talk) 03:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

hi i am narendra kumar sitr i beg to say that you are not explain(structure) the topic what happined, sir you are a intelliangent mean but. you are not explain the topic wright.thanks for listening my probleam, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.248.66.128 (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is totally broken
Article has now been fixed What happened to this article? I remember reading it a while ago (months, maybe years) and although it contained less information, it at least made sense. There are tons of grammatical errors and sentences that are just totally broken. Example:
 * There 49 expletives included in The Downward Spiral. Inaugurating the majority of them heard on the album is "fuck," heard most commonly in "Big Man with a Gun."

"Inaugurating the majority of them heard on the album is" is not something that any native English speaker would write. This particular contribution is courtesy of "1007D" in this change.
 * This sentence is true, but change "Inaugurating" to something else.  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC) 'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not really talking about whether what you've written is true or not, I'm talking about how poorly it is written. I've been looking at your other edits and you seem to really enjoy talking about how much Trent Reznor swears on his various albums and songs which also seems really strange to me. This is a fairly adult album, I'm not sure why we need a "fuck" count. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just shortned the paragraph.  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     16:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  16:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

There are also tons of words turned into links that are tangential to say the least and really make the article look trashy, like a spam email. Example:
 * 'If you're going to kill yourself, just do it, nobody cares at all.'

Is this really necessary?
 * That's just one of Reznor's quotes. Just keep this stuff too.  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I realize it's one of his quotes, what I'm questioning is why we need a link to the suicide article. Other people have made this same observation about your editing. You even seem to change the structure of sentences in other articles purely so that you can turn some of the words in them into links. I don't understand it, and as I said, it makes the article look like a trashy spam email. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's to fit the subject of the song "Just Do It".  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     16:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  16:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "The Becoming" tackles on the protagonist's fears of a transforming into a machine after dying of a disease (possibly HIV/AIDS). Its lyrics includes references to near-death and death experiences, and the loss of feelings. The lyrics also uses the name "Annie".[33] Speaking of "Annie," Reznor said in retrospect that this person (...)

"Tackles on the protagonist's fears" - this is not a phrase that English speakers use. I also question the interpretation. I highly doubt that Reznor is talking about literally transforming into a machine after dying of a disease (where did this come from?). More likely it's about retreating from his human, emotional side, and the power and the pain inherent in doing that. Finally, it's totally inappropriate to start a sentence with "Speaking of X" in an encyclopedic article.
 * Okay, I can partially change this sentence to something better.  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Agh, I should have been more clear - not only is the interpretation very strange and nonsensical and seems to totally miss the point, but even if it made any sense whatsoever that doesn't make it encyclopedic. Very few songs on Wikipedia have interpretations included in them, and usually they are either cited with quotes from the author, are more literal in meaning, or are more overarching interpretations with less specifics. This whole paragraph you've written is exactly what I'm talking about. It barely makes any sense and it's really not fit for this article. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

A final example:
 * Two songs are named after animals: "Piggy" (the first song to use the "nothing can stop me now" lyric) is titled after a character of the same name who disbelieves in the protagonist, whereby "Reptile"'s title addresses from the animal whose blood is taken to human body parts "underneath [the] skin" of a nameless person.

This is a huge sentence. The first half is poorly written. The second half makes almost no sense at all. Again, I question the interpretation: the song mentions "seeds from a thousand others, drip down from within" which clearly has something to do with being a whore (in the colloquial sense of the word, at least).

It's actually going to take more work to fix all of this junk than to have just added the information properly and carefully in the first place. I don't have too much time during the day to edit Wikipedia but I'll do what I can. In the mean time, please refrain from making this article even worse... --LuftWaffle0 (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will change all of this to something else in a colder tone like the edits of User:Drewcifer3000, but I'd to plan for this stuff. I might place a "Weasel Words" template in the article, just to make the problem fixed. I may remove my Peer Review of the article because of what you claimed to be poor english.  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I'm not just claiming it to be poor English, it is objectively poor. It is grammatically incorrect. It is not about the tone you're writing in, it's about forming grammatically correct English sentences. This article probably could have been frozen 2 years ago and it would have been perfectly fine. I'm actually somewhat dismayed at what you have done to it, especially when I think about all of the people that are going to be trying to read about one of the greatest albums by one of the greatest artists of my generation. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Initially, I placed a "weasel" template, but I changed that to the "disputed" template. I changed my mind.  'I   `'/ I>     &lt; pr o n 0 un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-&gt;     06:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)'e7enT¥" &gt;   '  06:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, quotations may not include wikilinks, per WP:MOS; furthermore, you may not use call out boxes for quotations--quotations must be placed in the text or in blockquote format (without even special quotation marks). I've only just started glancing at this, but a lot of the lyrics/style interpretations appear to be original research, since they seem to be referenced to the CD/lyrics themselves. Finally, this article has far, far too much detail.  Having a week-by-week breakdown of chart performance is a clear violation of WP:UNDUE.  I actually think that the idea of rolling this all the way back to before 1007D started editing it may be the best option (at least May 2011, but even that looks excessive; I'd have to search the history for a good starting point).  At least that way the formatting would follow WP:MOS and the OR would be gone.  Currently 1007D is blocked, so I don't think we should necessarily make such a drastic move right now, but at least we should see if there is a general consensus for some such move.  Alternatively, it is possible to go through from what's here now and edit it step by step into something more manageable.  1007D, you should know that the additions you've made seem to me to have moved the article away from Good status, not towards it.  Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but it looks like you need to review some basic policies like WP:NPOV and WP:OR, along with whatever other help your mentor advises. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:26, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * One possible solution is to revert to the last version before 1007D started editing, then compare the diff of that reversion and add back in any good material added since 1007D edited the article. If you need help in reverting back to the version of the page as it was on 18 May, drop me a note on my talk page, although this is something any editor can do if they know how. Mjroots (talk) 05:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly endorse this. It would take far too long to pick all of this apart with tweezers, I'd rather just use the hatchet and revert back to before his first edit. For such a popular article for such a popular band (especially among the internet-saavy), I highly doubt such an old article could have benefited very much in the last month. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 14:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, per request on my talk page, I've reverted to the last version befor 1007D edited the article. I didn't want to say how to do this per WP:BEANS. That diff needs to be examined, and any good material extracted and inserted into the article. Outside my area of expertise so I'm happy to leave that to the good people who know about these things. Any further problems with 1007D and you know where ANI is. Mjroots (talk) 14:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to see that good material deleted in the reversion has been restored to the article. Marking this as resolved. Mjroots (talk) 05:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, an anonymous IP has reverted the revert again, and since people have edited it since then, it can't be undone. So the article is back into the horrible shape it was before. We're probably going to need another revert. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 05:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)


 * OK LuftWaffle0 has done the said revert. Again, any good material removed in that revert needs to be re-added. I've semi-protected the article for a month, which will stop IPs and newly created accounts from editing the article. Hopefully they will lose interest now. Any editor who wishes to make constructive edits to the article may propose such edits here, where they can be discussed, evaluated and implemented if found to be good suggestions. Mjroots (talk) 06:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw an error on the article, where there is smaller text. Maybe add a " " template after the sentence ""Hurt" peaked on the US Radio Songs chart." to make this portion look like this way:

"Notes


 * A. 'Hurt' peaked on the US Radio Songs chart."
 * 71.142.248.37 (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks! --LuftWaffle0 (talk) 23:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Deleted version
Does the language in this version will ever be fixed? Seems very sad that most of that useful information is deleted. -- G reen Z eb  (talk) 11:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not about the language being fixed; it's that that version is full of massively unnecessary details that go far beyond what is needed for encyclopedic coverage of the subject. Wikipedia's job is not to collect all information about every subject we have an article on. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:06, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that some (maybe half) of details are unnecessary but still there is some good stuff, especially in "Themes, lyrics and controversy" and "Music" sections, that current article version is lacking. -- G reen Z eb  (talk) 12:35, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Those are exactly the sections I was talking about as being inappropriate. First, anything that is sourced directly to the lyrics is original research.  We're not allowed to interpret lyrics ourselves, ever, and only need to touch on the most important interpretations done by reliable sources. In Music, for example, we don't need the details on the time signatures of various songs, nor should we be listing the structure of songs, or the exact instruments used on each song, etc.  We can't draw any conclusions about the overall style of the album, unless those were made by reliable sources whose opinions meet WP:DUE. In summary, those are the two sections that caused the full reversion in the first place.  If, however, you find good, reliably sources stuff in that section, please bring it up here, and we can work on incorporating it.  I'm not trying to suggest that none of that stuff belongs in the article that does, just that most of it doesn't.  Qwyrxian (talk) 13:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Beyond the original research problems, there were tons of other issues as well, such as poor grammar, and overlinking. For example, look at the quote from Trent in the "Background and relocation" section. There's a link from "bothering" to the article for "Major depressive disorder", and a link from "totally terrible and negative" to the article for "Hate". Not only do these links themselves constitute a form of original research (it's an original interpretation of precisely what Trent meant by those words), but even if that's exactly what he meant, it doesn't necessarily mean that those article should be linked. That version of this article is littered with links like this to things like "Europe", and "Relationship." I think a person reading this article is likely to click on a link that goes to, say, an article about industrial music, but not to an article about what disease means. Links to other articles need to consider the context of the article they're linking in. The author of that version seems to believe that links are meant to be used to add subtext to the meaning of a sentence, and/or that nearly every word that isn't the/and/or should link to the article about it. It makes the article's appearance distracting and annoying. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 17:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I created a "Production" section out of the "Recording" section in my Notepad computer documents. If you see any flaws, improve it. I'd improve this article to GA status in the future, but I've to deal with "Metallica (album)" first to GA before I do that goal. Txiиg$ Tx/-\t VV!ll +  8I+E   22:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've undone some of the damage that 1007D, via this sock, has wrought on the article. May have missed some but I don't think I've trampled anything meaningful. Please correct me if I'm wrong. LuftWaffle0 (talk) 05:37, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you add the following paragraph to the lead section?:

"Co-produced by Trent Reznor and Flood, the album's concept was written after the Pretty Hate Machine Tour Series concluded in 1991. Reznor and Flood moved to a house in Los Angeles the following year, where The Downward Spiral was recorded at. It was influnced by various records like David Bowie's Low (1977) and Pink Floyd's The Wall (1979). Production wrapped up in February 1994 when it was mastered by Alan Moulder."
 *  A \/\ 9 3 r-  ( 0 la   19:52, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Ls883 (talk) 00:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Terrible review
I recall this album receiving a terrible review from a popular magazine, summarizing it as terrible noise and nothing you can't hear by listening to mechanical equipment. I can't for the life of me find the review now and it might make an interesting addition to the article. Anyone recall this review? --Skintigh (talk) 20:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

GAN
What a coincidence! I was looking at this article earlier today, as I picked up Pretty Hate Machine yesterday at a record store in Indianapolis. I even visited this talk page and thought it was odd that the article wasn't already a GA and had had no formal attempts made in years. Tezero (talk) 03:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been a fan of Nine Inch Nails since the With Teeth days, and I even saw them live. I had to turn this article about The Downward Spiral into a Good Article (GA) because it was the album that just made people crazy for Nine Inch Nails. Yes, there was a failed attempt to do so back in 2011, but I improved this article a lot in 2013 and 2014 since it's my favorite NIN album. And of course I have all Nine Inch Nails albums including Pretty Hate Machine and The Downward Spiral. How do you think of The Downward Spiral and Nine Inch Nails? Were you considering improving any Nine Inch Nails-related articles? Mr* | (60nna)  05:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Repeated quotes

 * In December 1993, Reznor was confronted by Patti Tate, who asked if he was exploiting Sharon Tate's death in the Tate house. Reznor responded, "No, it's just sort of my own interest in American folklore. I'm in this place where a weird part of history occurred."

This quote is repeated for a second time in the subsequent block quote. It's generally considered poor form/style to repeat the same words twice, whether you are quoting or not. Instead, paraphrase the first instance of the quote you are trying to highlight and then follow it with the direct blockquote. Viriditas (talk) 11:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Here's that "repeated quote" after I edited it today.:
 * In December 1993, Reznor was confronted by Patti Tate, who asked if he was exploiting Sharon Tate's death in the house. Reznor responded that he was interested in the house as her death happened there.

How do you think? }I Mr* &#124; (60nna) I{ 14:13, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Much better, thanks. Viriditas (talk) 09:14, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"inverted Downward Spiral motif in A Warm Place"?
This is stated in the article. Don't know when it occurred. A Warm Place, to my knowledge, does not contain this whatsoever and is note-wise following a far more consonant pattern. Just because the Downward Spiral motif is descending doesn't mean that a repeating ascending part (that stems from a segment of Bowie's Crystal Japan anyways) has to be it inverted, and it takes Audacity and about ten seconds to confirm this.

The only tracks that obviously contain the motif or a variation of it are, as known for years (chronologically):

Piggy, Heresy, Closer, The Downward Spiral.

Swim Jonse (talk) 10:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment! I didn't notice this before. I fixed that issue for you. =D }I Mr* &#124; (60nna) I{ 01:20, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

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Writing and recording
The writing and recording section is so fucking terrible I find myself commenting for the first home in decades? 87.198.43.132 (talk) 01:44, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You can click the Edit button at the top of the page and make improvements. -- Zim Zala Bim talk 02:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)