Talk:The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind/Archive 1

Ed's question.
It says some garbage about the mage and theif class being at a disadvantage ingame. I don't understand where that is coming from, considering I can enchant a eboney staff to shoot massive dmging fireballs in a large radius

It's because in an unmodded game, the most powerfull spell you can successfully cast at 100 Magic skill, is nowhere NEAR the strongest enchanted sword you can pick up and swing. Straight Mages, who don't use weapons and armor, just spells and MAYBE light armor to get by, are pretty much junk compared to the sheer uberness of an orc in full daedric running around. Thieves also, are at a disadvantage compared to fighters because they can't do as much damage without resorting to using a fighters weapon, longsword axe or what have you, if only because short blades can't hold enchantments as well. -Kopana

The Elder Scrolls Wikiproject
Recently The Elder Scrolls wikiproject has been created. Its purpose is to create a well organized structure of all articles regarding The Elder Scrolls universe, including games, world lore, and any other information.

I suggest anyone concerned with TES articles in Wikipedia to join this project, as it will be the main place to discuss anything about TES encompassing more than one article. Expandint TES information in WP chaotically makes it incomprehensive. CP/M 23:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Deletions
A lot of articles related to TES is considered for deletion on Articles_for_deletion/Elder_Scrolls-related_articles. There's suggestion to merge them into a few articles. The details will be discussed on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_The_Elder_Scrolls, and the concept on abovementioned AfD. Please see if you can make any suggestions or do some merging according to current proposals, and state your opinion on articles' general future here. CP/M 17:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

talk
The part about the journal being hard to use because there are no hotkeys is incorrect. The journal is very easy to use, and if you need to find a specific entry there is an option to search through the topics via alphabetical order.

Morrowind is an expansive game. However, there is no way, or reason, to see it all.

The character improves skills by using them. There are very few quests that reward skill points, only money or perhaps prestige. As such, at some point there is no reason to complete the quests since the character has plently of money (the only reward left to give).

The game tends to be unbalanced at high levels because the best equipment in the game is easy to acquire. After that, when the player finds new equipment, the result is a quick sale and more money in the backpack. With nothing to spend the money on ... what next?

There are many roleplaying paths to take. At least two (A Dunmer assassin and an Imperial Guild-person) are radically different and warrant a second play through to experience the other. However, there IS a "best character" since there is no reason to use lighter armor or weaker weapons, and the excellent fighting-character can be good at magic, theft, and socializing as well.
 * Glass (light) armor not only looks better, but also has a rating of 233 (vs. 333 for the best heavy armor) at 1/5 the weight and is easy to steal at ghostgate. Weaker weapons like daggers are useful if you are playing a character with low weapon skills because they are faster (and hence hit more often) and because they are based on agility rather than strength etc.

Obviously a great deal of effort went into the game, as evidenced by its variety. The overwhelming broadness of the world is what kept me from exploring the last nook and cranny. -Dan Smith 16 July 2004

Everything that you have said above,Dan, is true but it sounds like you didn't even enjoy playing the game. I personally had a lot of fun with it, regardless of these minor flaws. Every single game will have flaws. There will never be a perfect game that everyone will like. Besides, you didn't even mention the great storyline that went with it. I think that if a game doesn't have a good story, then it's just boring.-Leandreamo

Anhaedra the Dremora
This guy's mentioned under "Controversy." While I'm not arguing that what he says ("After I murder you, I'll rape your corpse. But don't worry, I'll be gentle.") isn't a bit disturbing, I don't remember him being actually controversial. Can someone provide a source, or is this just another case of "controversy" being used interchangeably with "stuff I find offensive"? --Aemilia 19:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It should be removed, IMO, as I don't see how it is particularly notable. Olessi 04:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nor do I...There was no lawsuit over that or anything to my knowledge that would give this any prominence. After all, if you mention that, you might as well mention the homosexual tendencies of Crassius Curio, the adulteress affairs in Solsteim (in the GOTY version), etc.  So much could be called controversial; it all depends on one's own viewpoint. Michael 04:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As for Crassius Curio, his tendencies aren't necessarily homosexual - he behaves the same way whether your character is male or female. He's more omnisexual.--Aemilia 04:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I am aware of that, but, nonetheless, one may see that as controvrsial. One may see him as either homosexual or just a pervert depending on gender.  Then again, some may see no controversy at all. Michael 05:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed it for the reasons mentioned. However, I noted only in retrospect that the section was renamed "trivia" rather than "controversy", so perhaps it was properly labelled and needn't have been removed.  In any case, I'm leaving my changes as-is, because it still doesn't seem particularly notable, even for trivia. &mdash; Wisq (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I support the removal. Morrowind is generally very clean from any offensive material, and this is an untypical occasion, however, with no excessive offense, and just not notable enough to list it, as it incorrectly affects the general impression. CP/M 20:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Dwemer
Having only played this one, do the other games go into the story of the Dwemer (dwarves) at all or is this the only one? Gnrlotto 06:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * From what I can remember, they are only mentioned in this game.
 * There are many ruins on Stros M'kai, the island on which Redguard takes place. --Senori 23:32, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

Dwemer The were metioned in ARena and daggerfall but not muchdetail.

Dwemer An interesting bit of a side note is that dwemer were actualy a type of elf and were not short. Their name is a coruption of the word Dwarf, which they were called by a race of giants they befriended. I love this game. If only more games were like this and this deep!

there is 1 dwemer. check tel fyr corprusarium bowels.he's got corprus,wont attack,and is part centurian spider                Shadin(NEW) 19:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC) Shadin 19:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Why NPCs say "Seen any elves? Hahaha..."
A long time ago, Nords were oppressed and enslaved by the elves. High or Dark, I can't remember. With the help of the god Shor, the Nords fought back and won their freedom. Some Nord NPCs in Morrowind joke about this. Quote: "Seen any elves? Hahahaha..." Banjotooie142 21:36, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Actualy it was the snow elves. The elves killed the first nord city. So the nords wiped them out. That's why they say it.


 * You mean the Falmer? Michael 05:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

difference
whats the difference between this game and fable {the video game} because in both games you can do what ever you want right?

Pece Kocovski 03:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

One big difference, the size of the game world, and the breadth and depth of the games. Morrowind, and its expansions can be played for many hundreds of hours. The word on the street is that Fable can be finished under 15 hours(I beat the game on my first try in only 8 hours), and the recently released PC version only adds a few hours gaming time. Also, Morrowind has a huge fan base that continues to create mods for the game many years after its release... 167.219.0.143 14:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well Morrowind can be beaten in seven-and-a-half minutes :P http://www.archive.org/details/Morrowind_730 --Huffers 15:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think another big difference between the two games is that Morrowind isn't all about the whole "to be good or evil" kind of thing and not only that but in Fable, you can complete the game if you become evil while in Morrowind, if you become evil, you can't do very much of the sidequests because everyone is afraid of you and if you are evil, it might be because you killed some important people in the game. This can even prevent you from completing the main storylines.-Leandreamo

I'm sorry Leandreamo, but that's a load of bunk. People in Morrowind don't care nickels to dimes if your evil, they only care if you've got a bounty on your head. If I were to steal something outstandingly expensive, and then talk to someone, I wouldn't necessarily get a response implying that they don't deal with thieves, instead as in the thieves guild, I might get something along the lines of "You must have murdered someone because your bounty is so high." Aside from that, there is in fact a backdoor method to winning the game, it involves stealing the assualt plans from vivec's palace and destroying dagoth ur. It fulfills all the required scripting conditions, and so regardless of the fact that you are missing the majority of your journal entries, not to mention the utter lack of artifacts such as the moon and star ring, it will still believe that you have completed the main quest. Though in all honesty, the main quest is nothing to some of the wonderful mods out there. My current record for the MQ is just under two hours from meeting Caius Cosades. :)  -Kopana

handmade maps
The distinction should be noted that Morrowind maps are handmade rather than randomly generated as in Arena and Daggerfall. This is why the world map and dungeons are smaller (something that some Daggerfall fans didn't like about Morrowind, especially the dungeons). - 154.20.172.151 08:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

However, the hand-crafted world in Morrowind is very detailed as a direct result, which should placate most Daggerfall and Arena fans.

secrets on xbox
daedric armor: (if you are doing the storyline, don't do this.) In Tel Fyr, Divayth Fyr has all but a helmet and shield. in one of the towers at ghostgate there is a daedric mask of terror. sakvild the raven at dagon fel has the masque of clavicus vile Lords Armor: there is a hidden door at ebonheart in the imperial shrine area (lv 100 lock)to an area with a guy with the armor(the guy is a rebel). lots of ebony and weapons+some: rob the vaults at vivec (dont worry about the price, join the thieves guild, drop your money and talk about price on head talking statues:
 * sheogorath:st. delyn canalworks
 * molag bal:bal ur
 * malacanth:yassimidan(spelling,forgotShadin(NEW) 19:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

please comment on my work (

Alright: C-

a quicker better way of getting great stuff is to summon it. theres a cheat/glitch that absoloutley rocks, where you create a spell with any beneficial spell effect (eg. attribute bonus, shield, sanctuary, water breathing, night eye, fortify health, bound equiptment, summoning creatures ect.) for 2 sec. on self, and soultrap for 1 sec. on target. the spell efect will last indefinately exept for summoning creatures, in which case they will fight and die normally, but you can take their souls or equiptment, because they count as regular creatures, but they help you. so bassically you can run as fast as you want, jump as high as you want, get one hit kills all the time, ect. its amazing. the biggest risk is if you cast jump on yourself, make sure you've got slowfall, because you can kill yourself like that. i recomend using yeah, those are the best ones to have, but anything works. i wouldnt use invisibility, chameleon, levitate, or water walking. this makes the game so much more fun, you get to play god! =D
 * slowfall
 * jump
 * fortify attribute (be careful with speed, you dont want to go too fast, say 200-300, all the rest can be at 1000)
 * fortify health
 * sanctuary
 * night eye
 * bound equiptment
 * summon creature (careful with this too, if you lose any, and they arent killed, you should do it yourself, because it will cost you more money to travel, also, when doing this, aim directly down, because if you dont, your xbox might freeze, its happened a few times)
 * spell immunity
 * swift swim
 * water breathing

Kagrenac's Tools
Keening and articles like it might be better kept directly on the main page. --Mareino 23:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it would make more sense to create an article called "Kagrenac's Tools" and put all three tools on that page. ModusOperandi 02:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Are there articles on other Tools? If not, I'd say it should stay as it is. --Koveras [[Image:Flag_of_Russia.svg|25px]] 18:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There's an article for Sunder. ModusOperandi 16:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. But I guess someone has got to submit some infos about Wraithguard first. :) --Koveras [[Image:Flag of Russia.svg|25px]] 16:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have created the page: Kagrenac's Tools. I will merge Keening and Sunder into it. ModusOperandi 16:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

with wraithguard you can use the other two tools.HAPPY?Shadin 20:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Jumping into Morrowind
I recently got my hands on a copy of Morrowind. And noticing that there is a rich story line behind the game, I am worried that with starting my Elder Scrolls expierence with the 3rd game, I will be missing a lot of that story and might be consfused with Morrowind's story. I feel impeled to find versions of the first two games just to get caught up to speed. Are the previous games that important to Morrowind and soon to be Oblivion? Or will I feel welcome when playing Morrowind without the previous knowledge?

Tis' okay, weary traveler.Do not be worried.They each have their own line.Shadin§§ 13:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Arena actually hasn't a very rich story, and it's completely unconnected with MW. Daggerfall world is well-thought, but it even has contradictions with MW's. However, I suggest you consider playing Daggerfall, it's worth it. CP/M that is trueShadin

Cheat?
The article says: "The best known speed record for beating Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind is seven minutes and thirty seconds by Semenov 'Knu' Vladimir on July 19, 2005. (He used a lesser-known backdoor route which allowed a large portion of the main quest to be skipped. This has been called a cheat.)"

Vladimir uses some in-game glitches and beats the game by doing the last quests. I think that calling it cheating is to take a away the glory of his doing. Although he skips the larger portion og the game, he still beats it. I would like the line "This has been called a cheat" removed. Bukload 09:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll get some info and explain it better soon. In general, he didn't actually play out the game (like with records in Quake or other shooters), but skipped most of it, though isn't exactly a cheat. CP/M 17:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, actually, it wasn't even a kind of cheating. Look here: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html . He only jumped right to the end.CP/M 23:38, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So you agree on not calling it cheating?


 * Sure. He didn't cheat a bit and did't even exploit "legal cheats" like super-alchemy (well, it wouldn't help anyway). It's like when in Fallout 2 you go straight to San-Francisco, get exp from Brotherhood's quest and jump right to the tanker. It breaks all the logic, you use laws' imperfection, but you don't break them explicitly. In action-game terms, his record is legal.


 * But there's another problem - it's all against the game design. The game is designed for long hours of gameplay, but such statements in the article may create a feeling that it is very short. Also, speed records don't make much sense for RPGs. So this may fall under useless (or non-related) information category. It wasn't me who deleted the record, but I have always felt it was a bit out of place.


 * If we keep it, I suggest it's done in a different way. For instance, we can write that Morrowind offers a very long gameplay time (it's really one of the highest), but it much depends on how you play, and .CP/M 16:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Vladimir's speed record shows the open-ended nature of Morrowind; that, if you want to, you can just go and beat the game right away. And the fact that Betsheda had located the Boots of Blinding Speed and the scrolls of fly like hell so close to you starting postistion makes me think they actually wanted to help those who whish to speed-complete it. Bukload 11:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Although Vladmir's method is impressive, and all glory to him, I still think that playing like that only makes sense if you are replaying the game. Otherwise it kind of breaks the main quest.

Links
I've reviewed the latest changes to the link list. Morrowind has an extensive online community, so it needs some more links than commonly. If we have to clean the links list, we should start from personal blogs, obsolete sites, sites on specific topic like vampires, etc., not sites of common interest. In case you disagree, we'd better discuss it. CP/M 04:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?
This article reads like a PR issue from Bethesda. How is a puff-piece like this suitable material for an encylcopedia? 71.131.226.204 02:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The information is correct, and there's nothing bad in showing positive sides of the subject, so I don't think something should be deleted. Just what specifically you think should be changed? Add some downsides or de-emphasize something? CP/M 22:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just read this article, and I think for the most part it is NPOV. I would, however, avoid using sentences like "This gameplay style (sometimes called sandbox style gameplay) is liberating and exciting," since this is obviously an opinion and is certainly not shared by all gamers. Otherwise, I don't see anything that's blatantly NPOV.


 * Sure, I've already changed that. Well, I think the article lacks some criticism, and Morrowind has a lot of weak sides. I'll add something as soon as I complete another article, if it won't be there by the moment. CP/M 01:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, is there a source for this statement in the trivia section: "Morrowind's musical soundtrack, composed by Jeremy Soule, draws extensively in theme and style from The Planets by Gustav Holst" ? I haven't heard this before, though I admittedly have not read much about the subject. The other two statements listed in this section are clearly facts that should be easily verifiable, but this statement seems more subjective in the absence of a supporting reference (e.g. interview with Soule, etc.). If this statement is an opinion of one of the authors here, then I'd suggest being more explicit as to why this claim is being made, or else I'd consider removing the statement. If not, it would be helpful to put a reference or link along with the statement. 24.211.241.191 21:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll try to find who added this, if he wasn't anonymous, and ask him. CP/M 01:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Pointless. History lost in merging. Well, the claim seems not very verifiable.CP/M 01:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. It would be better to register, it makes a lot of things easier later on.


 * Registration sounds like a good idea -- I'll do this first chance I get, just passing through today :) 24.211.241.191 03:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Change needed, but what?
"...and majestic players can find a rich-world to literally sort of live a separate medieval-type life in."What does this mean? I would like to reword it to make it easier to understand, but I cannot for the life of me figure out what the author(s) meant. - Pwbrooks 16:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. I tried to give that section a quick NPOV, and removed that sentence entirely in the process. --Sam Blanning(talk) 16:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

PC vs. Xbox

 * Arguments in favor of the Xbox version include the lack of the ability to get any desired item spell effect or weapon in the game, making it near impossible to play through normally without knowing that at anytime one could make himself invincible.

This sentence completely fails to pass my brain's initial parsing attempt. Could someone please explain? Thanks. &mdash; Wisq 02:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The PC version includes the Elder scrolls construction kit. From what I've heard, it essentially allows you to edit the entire world with very few restrictions. Soooo... Yes, it can be used to cheat, but all the neat stuff modders can do with it actually makes a sound argument for getting the PC version instead of the XBOX version. --James 13:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, and I can see all those elements in the sentence above, but they seem jumbled:


 * Lack of the ability to get any desired item spell effect or weapon in the game... The lack of the editor.
 * Arguments in favor of the Xbox version... So we're arguing against the editor.
 * At anytime one could make himself invincible... Aside from mixing pronouns ("one" and "himself"), invincibility is a possible effect of a powerful editor, yes.
 * Making it near impossible to play through normally without knowing that at anytime one could make himself invincible... Here's where things break down. It's hard ("near impossible") to play through the game "normally" (without the editor?) if you don't know ("without knowing") that you can use the editor to make yourself invincible?  But if you don't know about the editor, you won't use the editor, and the Xbox doesn't have an editor anyway.


 * You see my confusion, I hope. The sentence seems to have all the right ideas, but it's combining them in nonsensical ways.  I would probably just say something to the effect of "Since the Xbox lacks a game editor, players are forced to play through the game in its original form rather than cheating."


 * But I would also probably omit it entirely – it's really a very weak argument. After all, how often do you see people complaining that they're being tempted by the cheat codes, or their cheating software, or online FAQ sites?  Is it really that hard to play the game through without resorting to cheating?


 * Putting a "WARNING: game has cheat codes that might tempt you into cheating and ruining the game" disclaimer on the page of every applicable video game would make about as much sense as putting a "WARNING: knives are sharp and can stab you" on the knife page. &mdash; Wisq 20:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This statement of yours implies that there are not cheats for the X-Box version, and this is not true. Using common glitches and downright cheats is very plausable for the X-Box gamer, I know first hand. So there is no lack of cheating on the X-Box version, there's just no editor. I'd give a link, but I'm not sure how. Death Dark

Argh! I'm annoyed I never checked this article before, as an avid modder I must point out that in the PC version pressing the ~ key activates the console. In the console immeasurably powerful and usefull commands can be issued such as "Placeatpc gold_001 0 0 5" which would Place at the Player character, the one gold coin object (there are separate objects for larger groups of coins, such as 5 10 25 and 100, the game shows the closest smaller object when dropping coins.) the first two numbers are x,y positions relative to the character, and the 5 is the quantity to spawn. This would spawn five seperate overlapping gold pieces at the exact location of the players feet, this of course doesn't work for say, 10,000 gold, as that would totally overload the system just processing so many onscreen objects, but then there's more commands, such as additem to put it in your inventory, fixme to shift one a single game unit to a side to get out of staircases you may have fallen into and such. - Kopana

Nitpicky POV
I guess this is pretty minor, especially since this is an article about a video game of all things, but the line:


 * The most entertaining way of playing Morrowind is to conduct oneself within the virtual world much as one would conduct oneself in the real world.

bothered my when I read it. I agree with it, personally, but I know quite a few gamers who find it more entertaining to power through games like this stealing and killing everything they can. I seen references to players who played the entire game collecting spoons to spell things in the sand; or breaking every crate available; or other equally bizarre but entertaining items.

I think the sentiment expressed in the statement is valid, in that the designers of the game clearly attempted to make it posslble, and even preferrable, for players to play through the game as they would in reality. But I think there must be a better way to make that claim.

Kutulu 14:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like an opinion to me. It doesn't need to state how the player "should" behave, especially in a game as free-form as Morrowind, merely the consequences of breaking the law, which is covered in the next line. I think it can safely be deleted. 22:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Allusions
In the expasion "Tribunal," there is a mission in which you run into a suicide cult. This cult forsees the gates of oblivion opening and the world being ravaged by daedra. Shouldn't this be included? Death Dark

How-to guide
This article has been changed a bit too much into a how-to guide. It isn't good for articles, as stated in WP:NOT, so something should be done about it. I don't suggest removal of information, because article isn't bloated anyway, but some local rewrites to more encyclopedic tone would be a good idea. Also, the article may need some cleaning - the information should be potentially interesting to a general reader, and some how-to phrases could just be reworded. To everyone working on it, I'd suggest to shift focus on quality and avoid how-tos in the future. I'll fix it a bit soon, but more corrections will be needed anyway.

In general, it just needs to make a change from "you should do this and this, in oeder to..." to "player is able to...". In case it is irrelevant to game description, it would better be removed overall; appreciating all the work, the usefulness of this guide here is questionable. The current revision is stored at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Elder_Scrolls_III:_Morrowind&oldid=73780869, if someone plans to copy how-to to UESP or other wiki, where it would fit fine. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 17:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong?
What's up with the article? Most of it's gone--Age 15 19:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It was probably blanked by a vandal. I don't know for sure (this is my first time on this particular article), but that is a typical reason why large portions of a page disapear.  The other alternative explanation was that there was a "fatty" section of the article, and an editor cut out some of the needless portions.  Just some thoughts.  Green451 02:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination passed
The editors of this article should be proud. I cannot imagine a more thorogh, even handed discussion of this game. The references are many and easily verifiable. The article is well written, well divided as far as sections, and accomplishes effective inline citations. My only reservation is that more images should be added. I would research the availability of screenshots, as this would be the most effective way to illustrate items in the text. Overall, this is great work. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 03:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationales
The non-free (i.e all) of the images in the article need fair use rationales, as a lack of them is a violation of GA standards. For an example of a CVG screenshot with a rationale, see. Thanks, Green451 15:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Geuiwogbil 05:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Too long and wordy
This article seems much too long to me. The section on 'interface' seems entirely unnecessary - does it add anything to a reader's understanding of the game to know that 'Inventory, local maps, usable spells, and player abilities are accessed and manipulated by way of 4 resizeable windows'? In my opinion, this entire section could be cut as it doesn't really help anyone make a decision about the game and is hardly ground-breaking enough to be worthy of its own section. The issues with the quest log in the original release are hardly relevant now, since this has been fixed in subsequent patches.

The Free-form Design section also seems superfluous. A lot of the information there is repeated in other sections where it is more relevant, particularly about the quest system.

Finally, why does this article have so many citations? It makes the article extremely disjointed to read when every other sentence is contained within quotation marks and marked with a citation. This isn't rocket science (and it's interesting to note that the article on Spacecraft Propulsion actually has fewer citations than this article), and many of the citations are merely to reviews of the game.

I know this may seem like nit picking but I really feel this article is too long and needs cutting down to size and simplifying. I'm reluctant to start making wholesale deletions everywhere because I know a lot of work has gone into it so far, so I'd like to hear other people's opinions on the subject. Careless hx 16:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The article could use some trimming, though removing citations is a bad idea. More citations is better, not worse- most current GAs have around 20, while most current FAs have 40+ - Final Fantasy VII has 139 - a little excessive, yeah, but the 60 we have here is fine.  Converting the quotes to regular prose wouldn't be a bad idea, however.  --PresN 16:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm probably unable to make a full response to your comments, so I'll take at them in pieces. Your overall aims are probably correct, but I'm not sure about your particulars and scheme.
 * Firstly, I don't think this article is too long. It might use too many words, and too many quotes to say things rather than fewer, but that is another problem. This page is 45 kb long. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, a recent video game FA, is 47 kb, and FF7, a somewhat older FA, is 96 kb long.
 * Secondly, the interface is generally an important part of games, as it is what the player is staring at for the length of the playtime. Certain things, such as that 'Inventory, local maps, usable spells, and player abilities are accessed and manipulated by way of 4 resizeable windows', may seem obvious to anyone who's played the game or common to the genre, but those completely unfamiliar with the topic would not know this. The discussion of obvious details is necessary in an encyclopedia article, and is present in various VG FAs, including Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee, "The game features no user interface or heads-up display. Information is conveyed to the player in a number of ways; through instructive screens which can be activated by the player character, through scrolling messages in the background, or through groups of fireflies which can arrange themselves to produce words should the player character chant near them. No characters in the game have hit points; instead, being attacked (such as being shot or mauled) causes instant death. However, the player has unlimited lives, and upon death will re-spawn at the beginning of the level.[7]"
 * FF7,"Like previous installments of the Final Fantasy series, Final Fantasy VII consists of three basic gameplay modes: an overworld map, town and dungeon field maps, and a battle screen. The overworld map is a 3D display, featuring a scaled-down simplified version of the game's fictional world,[3][8] which the player navigates to travel between the game's locations. As with the preceding games in the series, the world map can be traversed by foot, by chocobo, by airship, or by other means of transportation.[8] On field maps, the game's 3D playable characters are directed across realistically-scaled environments, consisting of 2D pre-rendered backgrounds that represent locations such as towns or forests.[3] The battle screen is a 3D representation of an area such as a building interior or grassland, in which the player commands the game's characters in battles against CPU-controlled enemies through a menu-driven interface.[3][9]"
 * and Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater."A percentage value called the 'camouflage index' displays Snake's visibility, on a scale from negative values (highly visible) up to 100% (completely 'invisible' to the enemy).[12] In order to minimize visibility, the player must switch between different camouflage uniforms and face paints to blend in with the environment; for example, wearing a bark-patterned uniform while leaning against a tree, or wearing striped face paint while hiding in tall grass.[10] Other devices for camouflage, such as a fake crocodile head to decrease chances of being detected in water, are also available."
 * (This last example is, in a way, "ground-breaking", but still demonstrates the worthiness of "Interface" as a matter of discussion.)
 * Secondly and a third, the discussion of the quest log is, I think quite important, as it was brought up in quite near every review of the original game, and formed an important part of the reviews for the expansion packs. It is important for understanding the attitudes of reviewers towards the game and the historic development of the game, even if it does not help readers to form a "decision about the game" right now.
 * Secondly and two thirds, the discussion on Free Form Design, may be windy and heavy-handed, (which is what any editing on this article should seek to cure) but it is certainly important. The issue of free form design was the talk of every article on the game, every award it received, and every discussion of its design as a whole.
 * Thirdly, citations are an extremely important part of a Wikipedia article, and objections to them are not well-taken. Every fact, suggestion, opinion, or length of printed word must be cited. For more in this line, see Featured article candidates/Third Servile War, where the issue of "Reference Bonus" was avidly debated.
 * However, I do now see that I probably used more quotes that was helpful or necessary, so cutting down on those or integrating them into concise and precise phrasing would be cool.
 * Sorry not to respond further, but I need to be going. I'll be back later. Good luck with editing, but try to condense rather than cut.Geuiwogbil 16:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Whatever. Refactoring and sub-articling makes everyone concerned about size constraints happier. I sub-letted out the Gameplay section, (just for you, Carlesshx!) and cut several strands out of the main article. I'm actually quite liking the "Gameplay of The Elder Scrolls" idea. The same sort of thing's been rallied about on WP:FF, and I don't think any other long-running (though four titles isn't the same as thirteen titles, admittedly) series would be wrong to have its own "Gameplay" article, provided it did not dip into the pools of "Game-Guidery". I'm hopeful for the page, if I ever come around to it. The resources are still there, and plentiful, even for Morrowind alone. Design, programming, modification, art, in great thick dollops.
 * Sorry about the lengthy, wordy, flowery prose, Carlesshx. I'll just try to keep at it and keep improving. Good luck, and have a Merry Christmas! Geuiwogbil 08:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)