Talk:The Embroidered Couch/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 16:37, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments
Well, this is a tidily-written and well-cited article on a curious subject. I shall have to take most of the citations on good faith, so I will have few comments but a couple of questions.


 * The reception states that the book has been "poorly received by critics". That is somewhat ambiguous for a book of this kind, as it seems multiple critics objected to its being pornographic, i.e. they disliked its subject, but that is not the same thing as saying that it is a poor specimen within its genre. I think, since we are required to be neutral on such questions here, that we should carefully distinguish the two issues and try to say something clear about both of them. It seems clear that commentators agree the book was strongly pornographic, so it would be helpful if we could have some statements about how well the book is written, and whether it has a coherent plot (it seems so).
 * Added what I could find. Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * It might be helpful to separate out the 'Literary significance' as a section, with 'Reception' as another.
 * Done. Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * On the Literary significance, it appears that the book was pioneering and influential, founding both the genre of "pornographic and erotic fiction" (is that not two genres, pace Wong?) but also "scholar-beauty romance". Perhaps we could have something on what the latter genre is, with an example, and whether the book is in fact the first instance of the genre or just a precursor of it. The section should, I think, begin with some sort of overview of how important the book is in these terms.
 * Wong himself doesn't give concrete examples of that so I thought it'd be better to just remove the quote instead. ::Think it's clearer now, but would some reordering be better still? Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Ray Conlogue (ref #21) says that while erotica was suppressed, the book "had been hugely popular when first published", something the article needs to say (if Conlogue is correct). Conlogue gives the date of 1644 for the suppression, i.e. there was a period of nearly half a century when the book was *not* suppressed, a fact elided by the article. This too clearly needs to be stated, as it explains how the book could have so popular.
 * Wong doesn't say that the book wasn't banned in the Ming dynasty or before 1644 so I've just specified when it started being recorded as a banned book to be safe. Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Conlogue compares the book briefly to The Golden Lotus; it seems that is a far politer and more metaphoric novel of manners than the Embroidered Couch, but all the same the comparison is useful for context. The article names the book only as "Jin Ping Mei", so it'd be helpful to give its English translation also, with a brief description of its approach and content, and its (much gentler) reception by the establishment.
 * Briefly mentioned. Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Conlogue mentions that the work catalogues "lesbians, bisexuals, voyeurism, masturbation and incest". If he's right, then the article has skipped several of those in its account.
 * Not sure if some of those are really integral; the plot section is largely based on Wong's overview. For instance I don't think masturbation is among the "main points" of the plot. When Wong does refer to it, it's during a pretty technical analysis of the use of description. But as far as understanding the gist of the story it doesn't seem important, based on Wong's reconstruction. Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Finally, Conlogue mentions that the translator Hu found the book "very funny", and that "he became fond of the characters: the scholar Easterngate, his pretty and insolent wife Jin, and Easterngate's bisexual lover Dali, who also becomes Jin's lover". Both of these seem worth mentioning, as they suggest that the work has literary merits both for its wit and for its characterization (see my first point above).
 * Done Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Summary
This article seems close to the required standard, but some attention to the listed points might help it to ensure it covers "the main points" of the subject (criterion 3a). Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:37, 27 November 2021 (UTC)


 * - I see you've made several changes to the article. Could you indicate on this talk page which comments you believe you've addressed, so I can strike them once checked? Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've tried to rework and add some things but am pretty rusty so forgive me if it made things worse :P Thank you for reviewing this again and I'll try my best to address any follow-up concerns you might have Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:47, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it's worked ok. Would you mind extending the short summary in the lead section slightly to reflect your changes to the body text? Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:57, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * What about now? Thanks Kingoflettuce (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, every little helps. I think the article meets the criteria now. Good work. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)