Talk:The Emperor Norton Trust

Requesting clarification of "issues" tags added February 2015
On 17 February 2015, User:Ironholds added the following tags to the top of this entry, without comment:


 * This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations. (February 2015)
 * This article contains weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information. (February 2015)

As the President of the nonprofit that this entry describes, I'd like to know what, precisely, is meant by these two tags — i.e., where, specifically, problems are felt to exist, and what, if anything, needs to be done.

Many thanks. Johnlumea (talk) 01:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * For tag 1: the article is lacking footnotes for most of the lead section, as well as "On this basis, the organization has introduced the option of simply adding an official "Emperor Norton" name for the Bay Bridge as a whole, rather than replacing the longtime unofficial name."


 * For tag 2: a more accurate term would be "peacock words"; words that add fluff and colour to the article without adding value and aren't neutral or encyclopedic in tone. The main example is "the 19th-century San Francisco eccentric and visionary Joshua Abraham Norton" - eccentric and visionary? Says who? Our article describes him as a citizen who proclaimed himself emperor. What encyclopedic value and tone does "eccentric and visionary" add? Ironholds (talk) 07:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Re tag 1: Most of the ideas introduced in the lead section are repeated in the main body — and the footnotes are there. I have a reference for the specific additional point you mention, and will add that.
 * Three references added for the specific point mentioned as the rationale for the "insufficient inline citations." See current references 20, 21 and 22. Johnlumea (talk) 01:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Re tag 2: What are meant by "eccentric" and "visionary" are the more literal meanings of these terms.


 * By "eccentric" is meant "out of the center," in keeping with this Wikipedia definition:


 * "In popular usage, eccentricity (also called quirkiness) refers to unusual or odd behavior on the part of an individual. This behavior would typically be perceived as unusual or unnecessary, without being demonstrably maladaptive. Eccentricity is contrasted with 'normal' behavior, the nearly universal means by which individuals in society solve given problems and pursue certain priorities in everyday life. People who consistently display benignly eccentric behavior are labeled as 'eccentrics.' "


 * It would seem that Emperor Norton has been well-established as an "eccentric" by the definition of the Wikipedia entry on the idea.


 * By "visionary" is meant "one who sets out a vision(s)."


 * Here again: In Emperor Norton's original proclamations explaining the rationale for declaring himself Emperor; in his proclamations calling for the dissolution of the Democratic and Republican parties, for fair treatment of blacks, Chinese, Native Americans and women, for fair labor standards, and for the creation of a League of Nations; and in his proclamations calling for a suspension bridge linking San Francisco and Oakland via "Goat Island," it is hard to argue that Emperor Norton was not setting out a vision(s) and thus acting as a visionary.


 * The words "eccentric" and "visionary" have legitimate, neutral uses that are appropriate here and should be honored.Johnlumea (talk) 07:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm aware of what eccentric means, and I am (as a former Bay Area resident) aware of Emperor Norton's work. What you're missing is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We do not make subjective judgment calls about subjects (like calling them "visionaries" or "eccentric"); we rely on the descriptions provided by third-party, independent sources. While your campaign is certainly third-party, it is not independent. If loaded terms like this are included they should be in the form of "described by [source] as 'an eccentric...visionary'.[inline citation]". If that citation and description don't exist, the terms should be removed. Ironholds (talk) 17:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)


 * You seem to be under the impression that the word "eccentric" is, by definition, "loaded." But the overwhelming consensus of the hundreds, probably thousands, of historical accounts of Emperor Norton, from his own day to the present, agree that, at a minimum, he was someone who thought and acted in ways that placed him outside the norms of his own society. A long-established word for such a person is "eccentric." It seems unnecessary for this article to make a show of detached objectivity about a word that so obviously is not being used in a subjective way — and about something that, for so long, has enjoyed such wide acceptance as having been the factual state of affairs. Johnlumea (talk) 18:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * A Wikilink to the entry on "Eccentricity (behavior) has been added for the word "eccentric." The word "visionary" has been removed.Johnlumea (talk) 22:18, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

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Blacklisted Links Found on The Emperor's Bridge Campaign
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