Talk:The End (A Series of Unfortunate Events)/Archive 1

Suggested titles
I personally do not believe that suggested titles belong in this article unless they are backed up by an external source (e.g. the "red herring" title suggestions for Book the Twelfth found at thenamelessnovel.com, or if something were to be mentioned in a Daniel Handler interview). If people were to start adding plot speculation with nothing to back it up, it would soon be edited out, and I think the same applies to suggested titles. Otherwise, the list would be endless.

I'll hang on a couple of days before deleting them - if anyone else has an opinion, please say! CLW 06:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Put our titles back! We worked hard to come up with those!

There's absolutely no evidence for the title names as of yet, and there probably won't be until mid-2006. Plenty of time for speculation, but that's all it is, so there's no need to mention it in the article. --MattManic7325; October 24th 2005

From certain information I have found and configured, I beleive the title of the last book is "The Fortunate Finale."--Rayce Jacobson; November 3, 2005

The Fortunate Finale ? Perhaps. Though for all we know this book could infact end in tragedy. I personally believe the suggested titles should be kept. Atleast for the moment. -MGL


 * Sure, keep 'em here on the talk page. But not in the article itself - remember that this is an encyclopedia, not a blog! CLW 10:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The last book is called The Esari End - I'm sure of it and I've got proof! Daniel O - 25 January 2006

Then give the proof. --A WikiUser

The Esarni End is just a hoax that a member of UnfortunateEvents.com came up with, along with the associated defences (particularly the alleged definition of "Esarni"). --Anonymous

it cant be Esari End--Chris This is Chris, it cant be because there was a book already starting with "E"

Although it's by no means certain I think the article aught to mention that the note to the editor at the end of The Penultimate Peril contains the words "The End is near", note the capital E, Snicket could well be putting the title right under our noses. LovingIt! 09:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The End could possibly be the title of Book the Thirteenth. Have any of you ever considered  Barnes and Noble's pre-order image to be true? Jordan Elder 03:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Today I received an email from AuthorTracker@harpercollins.com, It simply reads:
 * >AuthorTracker :: Lemony Snicket
 * >THE END
 * >the last in A Series of Unfortunate Events
 * >FRIDAY the 13th
 * >OCTOBER 2006
 * >Be Prepared.
 * That ends it for me, I reckon that must be the title LovingIt!
 * >the last in A Series of Unfortunate Events
 * >FRIDAY the 13th
 * >OCTOBER 2006
 * >Be Prepared.
 * That ends it for me, I reckon that must be the title LovingIt!
 * >Be Prepared.
 * That ends it for me, I reckon that must be the title LovingIt!
 * >Be Prepared.
 * That ends it for me, I reckon that must be the title LovingIt!
 * That ends it for me, I reckon that must be the title LovingIt!
 * That ends it for me, I reckon that must be the title LovingIt!


 * I would be of the opinion that The End is a teaser title, as The Nameless Novel was for Book Twelve. And some people thought that would be the real title of the book, too, but it wasn't.  I recommend caution.


 * Agreed - I don't know if I agree with your opinion that The End is a teaser title, but you are right to point out that we don't know for sure either way. After The Bad Beginning I wouldn't be suprised to find The E-something End is the title but thats pure conjecture and certainly doesn't belong in and encyclopaedia. LovingIt! 11:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, since both Barnes & Noble, Amazon, AuthorTracker and LemonySnicket.com are labelling the book in the title bar as "The End" - including, yes, on the teaser cover - can we stop all this reverting of "unsourced" speculation, since there are at least four sources and I could conjure up a bunch more?


 * I am still concerned about prematurely changing the title and moving the page. If 'The End' were to turn out to be a teaser title like 'The Nameless Novel', it would be quite embarrassing to have made such changes, and even if we were right, the change would not add much to the article. 'Book the Thirteenth' is a safe article title - even though it isn't the actualy title, we know that it is an accurate name for the book. Until we know for certain that the title is 'The End', I would advise waiting, possibly until shortly before the release. However, the sources definitely merit a mention in the article itself - I may add this myself. Furthermore, please create an account and sign your comments (WP:WHY), so I know if any replies are from the same person. --Constantine Evans 00:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have changed the second paragraph so that it mentions 'The End' as a possible title. While speculative titles have been removed in the past, I believe that the continued reference to the book as 'The End' merits some reference in the article itself. However, it would be appreciated if someone with more knowledge of these matters than I could add the best citation for this type of reference that they can find (something from the publisher would be nice). If 'The Nameless Novel' was used to refer to Book the Twelth in preorders or newsletters, this should be noted as well. --Constantine Evans 01:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll link LemonySnicket.com, which is fairly official, and generally filter the alleged title through the article - while continuing to make clear that it isn't exactly official yet.86.128.238.48 18:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and am I now allowed to revert edits which change it back to Book the Thirteenth? Given the fact that my revised version is accurate,up-to-date, provides references, and continues to emphasise that this need not be the real title.  (Also, as per your requests, I shall sign my comments from now on.)86.128.238.48 19:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, this is not actually what I meant. I added a reference to 'The End' as a possible title or working title, since it is rather prevalent as a reference to the book. However, there is no explicit evidence that this is the real title. Don't change the title in the article to The End without a very direct source - for example, if you have a copy of the book. Also, have you accidentally logged out? It is better to have 'Book the Thirteenth', which we know is correct, than to have 'The End' which might be correct. --Constantine Evans 00:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Very well, then. I figured that it was best to go with the most up-to-date information for those who come here seeking it - if we keep out working titles (which The End is, given the explicit use of The End in the title bar for Book the Thirteenth on LemonySnicket.com itself), then that title may never head the article at all, which seems to me rather a waste.

I just got this email from Author Tracker. Read it, what does it mean?

April 1, 2006

All of us at HarperCollins Children�s Books would like to extend our sincere apologies for yesterday�s surprising public announcement by Lemony Snicket. We discourage our authors from disclosing the contents of a book so far in advance of its publication -- especially a book as highly anticipated as Book the Thirteenth, The End, which will not be released until October 13, 2006.

As a courtesy to dedicated fans, we thought it only fair to share Mr. Snicket�s revelations in an open forum. Below is the key information revealed by Mr. Snicket regarding the upcoming final installment of A Series of Unfortunate Events.

Yes, the Baudelaire siblings� difficult journey comes to a triumphant end. Yes, their parents are very happy with their new home. Yes, Klaus Baudelaire does skip a grade and win a spelling bee. Yes, Count Olaf gives each of the children a pony. Yes, Beatrice is actually the hook-handed man. Yes, they all live happily ever after, a phrase which here means �plus eternity times infinity!!� Mr. Snicket also revealed that The Beatrice Letters, a collection of personal letters which will be published in September, is full of funny poems and doodles of unicorns.

We hope that none of this information will lessen your interest in Mr. Snicket�s research. Just because everything turns out perfectly in The End certainly does not justify the terrible things that have befallen the Baudelaires over the course of the last twelve books.

Thank you for your support.

Happy April Fool�s Day,

That's the end of the email, do you think it's an April fools?  D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 15:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Since it says "Happy April Fool's Day" at the end, and the cheerful information is quite obviously at odds with the books themselves (and plain ridiculous in the case of Beatrice = hook-handed man) then yeah, it's an April Fool's Day joke. As was, I imagine, your query about whether it was an April Fool's Day joke...

The Release
According to book sellers, the release of Book the Thirteenth will be on the 3rd April 2006.

That's really strange. I thought it would come out Sept/Oct 2006. If its the last book in the series, you would thing Snicket would drag it out, you know?

I've removed erroneous information regarding the release and added the tentative release date. --MattManic7325; October 24th 2005

Thats odd. From what I know his books are usually taken out late in the year. Has anyother book fallen out of this consistinsy ? -M.G.

It comes out on October 13th 2006.  D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 15:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Plot
What could make Kit Snicket rush away from Captain Widdershins? Snicket stated this in The Penultimate Peril. Could he be infected with Medusoid Mycelium? Tell me what you think. 209.192.78.69 22:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Book 13 wont come out on Aprtil 3rd because the Beatrice Letters wont be out yet to give us clues of book 13!!!!- Orcacam07, March 15, 2006

The target date is Friday 13th October

I'm not sure if this is the right section or not, but perhaps the napkin that LS writes on @ the end of PP is the one mentioned in Unauthorised Autobiography (Duchess of Winnipeg's).

Also, when I zoomed right in on the teaser cover on www.lemonysnicket.com, i saw something that could be: the Incredibly Deadly Viper? weird question mark thingy? waves?


 * This really isn't the right place to ask questions like this - it is unlikely that anyone will answer. Such things would be better suited for a discussion forum about the series. This page is for discussion of the article and possible improvements. --Constantine Evans 01:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll answer anyway, though. The teaser cover is a recolour of TGG's cover; the border is still waves, but since it's a recolour then that's likely not what the actual border will be.

J.S.
Who is J.S.? Is he Jerome, or Justice Strauss? Tell me what you think. Depressed Marvin 16:12, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Both. It's spoken of several times in The Penultimate Peril.

Could be Julio Sham from the Wide Window. He could have re-used the disguise, as they did in The Hostile Hospital

Could also be Jacob Snicket, Lemony's father.

I think J.S. was several people. They we're all at the hotel in different places. Each guest that the Baudelaires attended to had a different J.S. in mind.

Speculation
This article seems to consist mainly of speculation. I have removed most of the speculation that gave no supporting evidence, and have tried to rearrange things into a more concise and continuous format. Anyone is, of course, free to replace this deleted text, but please consider that Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation (WP:NOT).

In addition, this article's language and organisation could be cleaned up to be more professional, but I do not have time to do so. Something should probably be added about this being stated to be the last book. --Constantine Evans 04:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Release date inconsistency
There are two different and purportedly confirmed release dates listed in this article. Could someone who knows about the true planned release date please fix this problem and add a citation? --Constantine Evans 02:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know what Esari means- The last book might be called The Esari End!
The last book might be called The Esari End, but I don't know what in the world Esari means, do any of you?

It doesn't mean anything. "The Esarni End" was a hoax title which a member of the UnfortunateEvents.com forum invented. - Anonymous

if u search Count Olaf on this site, it shows him surrounded by CROWS,coincidence? respondChris

Coincidence to what?--Daniel O 16:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

It Could be part of the next cover of the book
 * No, its not. Its part of a Lemony Snicket book set. The Olaf surrounded by crows is from the Vile Village.--CyberGhostface 17:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The last book in the series is The End.

Picture of the last book
Here's a picture of the last book: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c90/arjayoh/esarni.gif. Have any of you got any better ones?

Again, this is a hoax by a member of UnfortunateEvents.com. That "cover" is Photoshopped. - Anonymous

If it's a hoax then why if you put Esari End in Google it comes up with this article page?


 * Uh, perhaps because Google find the phrase on this page. It's a hoax - ignore it. CLW 15:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Not argueing with you and it probably is a hoax but I found out about Wikipedia by typing in on google the Esari End before writing anything to do with Esari End on Wikipedia, so why did it come up?

Not only is that not how Google works (it wouldn't link to this page if the phrase "Esari" wasn't on it), that's not even what the hoax title is meant to be. "EsarNi," not "Esari." If you're going to be wrong, at least get it right. Anyway, I think it's probably best if all the information on the origins of this hoax were gathered here so as to eliminate rumours and hearsay, although I cannot help but worry that it will be horribly misinterpreted by woefully unintelligent individuals. The hoax started in this thread, which makes it clear everywhere aside from the first post (as if it weren't enough of a clue that the picture is on somebody's PhotoBucket account) that both the title and the cover were made up by "VFD_Founder" whose real name is Rob Yeo:

http://www.unfortunateevents.com/forum/showthread.php?s=56eec8df00978b150e8a474a00bb817b&threadid=15097&perpage=17&pagenumber=1

And this diagram explains why that cover in particular is fraudulent:

http://www.freewebs.com/voicesofue/ersatz.png

I miss typed, I meant Esarni really and fine it is a hoax, the next book is probably called The Fortunate Final.

Hey sorry about the trouble, I absolutely agree with you that it's a hoax. Sorted?

Library
There's been a library in every A Series of Unfortunate Events book and the Baudelaier's escaped with Count Olaf on a boat at the end of The Penultimate Peril and there can't be much of a library on a sailing boat so what kind of library do you think will be in the next book?--Daniel O 17:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a sea book?

What's a sea book? Daniel O 19:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

What about the library that Dewey Denoument made underneath the lake that's next to Hotel Denoument? MarkGyver 01:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You are likely to get more of a response from a discussion board, as noted further down on this page. The purpose of this page is to discuss changes to the article. --Philosophus T 01:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Where have you all gone?
How come no one is replying to anything anymore on this discussion page? Where have you all gone???Daniel O 15:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't think me rude, but this isn't actually a chat forum! This is more a page for any queries or useful comments relating to the actual article, rather than somewhere for general ASUE chat. Sorry - please don't take offence! CLW 17:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. Daniel O 19:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Would you guys stop saying you have "proo". no one has proof until the day the book actually comes out!-Ted

do u even no WHEN it's coming out?

Recent revert
I just reverted 5 edits to this page, all of which seemed to have been made in error. In particular: I am fairly certain that all of these edits were made in good faith, so I hope I have not reverted any useful changes. --Constantine Evans 03:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:MOS states that punctuation should usually go outside quotations.
 * I do not understand the removal of capitalisation.
 * The addition of the number of pages needs to have a citation.
 * The last two edits seemed to only cause formatting problems.

Page Count
After reverting various IP editors who added 384pp as the page count, I have found that Barnes and Noble give this as the page count on their preorder page. If these users had told me this instead of ignoring my warnings, I would not have kept reverting the change. I will add this again.


 * I've added a question mark to this - I don't think any page count can be trusted this far ahead, and online retailers often have completely the wrong figures even long after the release. That said, the same figure is given on Amazon.

Do you know on Amazon they've already got a review about book 13. D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 15:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't see any such review myself, but if it does exist, it won't be reliable at all. The book isn't out for six or seven months yet, and the idea that anyone could have gotten their hands on a copy is ridiculous.  Probably just another generic review from a robot or spam from some kid.

If you type in on Amazon Book the Thirteenth: Complete & Unabridged (Series of Unfortunate Events S.)

it will come up.

I'ts a tape review. D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 16:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC) I have just recieved an author tracker e=mail from harper collins CONFIRMING the title!!! YAAAH! 21:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC) The Hero of Time!

Namelessnovel.com
Hey, does anyone know if the site thenamelessnovel.com is going to start again in July 06 and do exactly the same as last year but with book 13? I'd appreciate if any1 had any news? - Dannybriggs93


 * It seems probable that there will be some web development for Book the Thirteenth, but reopening TheNamelessNovel.com again and doing exactly the same thing as last year would be seen as incredibly boring and unoriginal, so it's highly unlikely they'll do that. However, there is no news whatsoever that I've heard.

I think the thirteenth book is going to be called the Terrible Tragedy. It fits!

There has been some online content put out on Book the Thirteenth, though - this handy booklet from LemonySnicket.com is very revealing. http://www.lemonysnicket.com/pdf/SUE_SummerReading.pdf

What's the thirteenth secret, I can't get at all as much as I try!  D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 17:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The last secret - which wasn't actually all that difficult to work out? - is "He is finished." Speculated by some to mean that Lemony Snicket is finished, i.e. dead, but given that a press release come out around the same time stating that he had completed writing the last book, I imagine it simply meant just that - that Lemony Snicket has finished Book the Thirteenth, and thus A Series of Unfortunate Events.

The End
The End has got to be the title for the last book. It says it everywhere. Even if you look on Lemony Snicket's official website it says. That's enough proof isn't it.-- D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 15:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * We're discussing this above, under Suggested Titles - however, it's worth noting that Book the Twelfth was referred to as "The Nameless Novel" everywhere, as well - online retailers, pre-orders, and I believe also on LemonySnicket.com itself. In defence of The End, though, with Book the Twelfth they were trying their hardest to play up the mystery of the title.  However, with Book the Thirteenth, they're clearly also trying very hard to emphasise that it is indeed the very last book, the end.  Until we get a picture of the full cover (not the recoloured teaser with the art removed), then I shall continue to believe that The End is merely a placeholder.86.128.238.48 19:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Is this true? http://www.project-am.info/bk13.jpg -- D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 06:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Apparently so - my source says it came from an ad in the New York Times Book Review. And it's too good to be faked, in my opinion...  I'll see if I can work it in a little better in the article.  Also of note is that this apparently confirms the title as The End, but it's probably best to wait until we receive another AuthorTracker or something.  If they're giving the cover out in an advert, they'll probably be confirming it online soon, unless it wasn't meant to be leaked so soon and somebody made a blunder.
 * The most recent AuthorTracker just confirmed the cover.
 * I've changed it. Better to call it by a new temporary name, than an old one. --  Zanimum 13:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's the Authour Tracker:

May 2006

We wish we weren�t obligated to share the cover of Book the Thirteenth with you the moment it arrived, under cover of night, from illustrator Brett Helquist. However, you did sign up to receive exclusive updates concerning Lemony Snicket. As a result, we have no choice. =

As alarming as this cover is, the good news is that The End won�t arrive until Friday the 13th, October 2006. The bad news is that �Thirteen Shocking Secrets You�ll Wish You Never Knew About Lemony Snicket,� which volunteers everywhere are already using to prepare themselves for The End, is available for download right now.

Consider the ominous introduction to this alarming free booklet: �There are certain individuals who think they know what Lemony Snicket�s books are about. They are under the impression they understand who he is. They believe they know what to expect....In fact, the truth is far worse than such people ever imagined.�

We�d understand completely if you never wanted to open another e-mail from us again.

With all due respect.

That's it.  D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 16:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not a verifiable source - people who are not signed up for such press releases cannot check them. I am reverting these changes until someone gives a verifiable source. If there isn't one yet, then we can wait. Because of mirrors and such things, making premature changes like this is bad. --Philosophus T 18:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * But it IS a verifiable source! It's the book's publisher's! When the art for the twelfth book was revealed, didn't this happen as weel? I seriously doubt that this is a hoax put together by snicket to fool us... 21:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC) The Hero of Time p.s. We should atleast REFERENCE the e-mail in the article: show the picture, write about the gist of the e-mail, and conclude that it is HIGHLY LIKELY that the title will be THE END... 21:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know that the source is somewhat reputable (at least when not being vague), the problem is that it isn't verifiable, because it is an email - if you weren't on the mailing list at the time, it appears that you cannot check the information. Surely HarperCollins has published this somewhere online where people can actually check it? --Philosophus T 22:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I find it hillarious that Saw III keeps on being continously spammed with fake information yet the true stuff here keeps on being reverted. Here is a screenshot from my e-mail.
 * [[Image:Tooshocking.PNG|300px]]
 * Is that good enough? Or am I going to be accused of photoshopping?--CyberGhostface 01:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I certainly trust you, and don't need convincing as to the text of the email. The problem is that this doesn't satisfy WP:V. I'm not going to revert these changes anymore, and you can go ahead and start changing things to The End if you want to, but you really need a reputable source that anyone can go and check. --Philosophus T 01:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Its okay, I'll wait until the site publishes it just to be safe. Sorry about sounding edgy before, I just had a really bad day today.--CyberGhostface 02:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The cover image of Book the Thirteenth that was in the AuthorTracker was stored under a HarperCollins URL. Is that good enough?  http://webcontent.harpercollins.com/images/om/SZ/HCKids/the-end-jkt.gif
 * And since HarperCollins's websites actually refer to it as "The End," then I'd say it's been fulfilling the "verifiable" requirement for several months, yet it's the far less verifiable cover that remains while references to "The End" are removed time after time. I don't mean to sound rude, but a lot of this talk of verifiability doesn't seem to make sense (and isn't justified in the edit summary).  I understand Wikipedia's rule, but the application is inconsistent.

Have any of you looked at the front cover properly? It shows the Baudelaire's looking over Count Olaf who's floating in the water(probably dead). You can tell this because it shows Count Olaf's feet and one of them have a tattoe of an eye on it.  D a  n  i  e  l  O m y  t  a  l  k. 15:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think just about every messageboard has been dissecting the cover absolutely. You should think of joining one, like UnfortunateEvents.com, 667 Dark Avenue, or The Quiet World.
 * Also, the cover's now been put on LemonySnicket.com, and the title's been there for ages, so is that verifiable enough to completely update the page?
 * http://www.lemonysnicket.com/books.cfm
 * (Sorry if I seemed grouchy earlier, but the progress of this page has often proved rather slower than I'd like. I expect it's also proved rather hastier than others would like.)

The page looks great now with the large picture of the cover and the correct title :) 20:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC) The Hero of Time!

Guardian: Snicket of Olaf
I have just discovered something very strange: on the A Series of Unfortunate Events page, it says that Lemony Snicket is the Baudelaire's guardian, but on THIS page it says the Count is their guardian... I think that we should just have a question mark there, because it seems like Count Olaf might be their guardian in the begining of the book (at least according to The Penultimate Peril), but then the Baudelaires kill him (atleast according to the cover they do) and might get into the hands of Snicket... I'll edit this now. 00:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC) The Hero of Time
 * A news article from a long time ago said that Snicket would be their guardian in the last book. People are assuming that Olaf is their guardian because he had them with him at the end of the penultimate peril.
 * I really hope that if Olaf dies he dies at the end...it'd be really cheap for him to be offed in the beginning as he is one of the best characters in the series.--CyberGhostface 00:45, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for telling me! I'll fix this page and put the Series of Unfortunate Events page back to how it was... And your right, if Olaf is going to die, I hope Snicket ATLEAST lets Olaf kill a few people before he dies himself (like maybe a Baudelaire?). 00:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC) The Hero of Time
 * There is no source for this claim, so I am reverting to Unknown until a reliable source is given and changing this on ASUE. I don't see the news article listed anywhere. WP:NOT a crystal ball. --Philosophus T 07:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If anyone finds this news article, could they link it here, please? I remember an article about the movie mistakenly saying that Snicket was one of their guardians, but not this - and I wouldn't have expected anything from long ago to look so far ahead.  And I agree a question mark is best for their guardian (unless people mistake it for the question mark from TGG *wink*), and I don't know why everyone's assuming that Olaf is dead on the cover, they look like they've just been shipwrecked so it's pretty likely he's just unconscious, but he might even be just lying around giving the Baudelaires orders.  Or the clothing could be a red herring and it's not Olaf at all.

Speculation
Wikipedia is for facts, NOT what you think will happen. Therefore I've removed the theories from the ex-libris and etceteras. And whoever is changing 'fruit' to '75 apples', please stop. You don't KNOW its an apple. It could be a berry, or a tomato. Therefore, until we learn otherwise, keep it the way it is.--CyberGhostface 03:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. A lot of the aSoUE articles are basically just speculation or else have wild conclusions drawn from misinterpretations or even from nothing at all. I'll help out where I can.

--Sweet angel66 16:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)== "The Final Fire" -- possible title ==

i am a new user and do not have an account. Still, i wanted to konw (beside all the proof Book 13 will be called "The End") how many think the last book will be called "The Final Fire" ? - ABC
 * Why would it be?--CyberGhostface 22:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Something could happen at the end involving involving the last VFD fire. Some people at the Unofficial Lemony Snicket FAQ internet site, think that Beatrice is still alive during the book's time era, but dead in the time Lemony Snicket writes the books.  She might die in a fire in the last book.  But, that's just a theory. - ABC.
 * that or Esari End.- sweet angel66
 * Or it could just be The End, as all the official sources have said.--CyberGhostface 19:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And Handler himself. That's about as official as it gets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.183.11 (talk • contribs)


 * Congratulations on making it to the end of the school year. Now that summer is here, you probably think that this is a good time to relax and have fun. Unfortunately, you are completely mistaken.
 * ''With less than four months until The End, the thirteenth and final book in A Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket...

Yet another email from the publishers, confirming the title. -- Zanimum 13:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In retrospect, the March AuthorTracker was probably meant to be the one confirming the title, since they started italicising it after that. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say...

my friend keeps saying she knows the real title-sweet angel66
 * I'm sure her sources are impeccable.--CyberGhostface 22:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

do you really think that might just be called the end? - sweet angel66 june 25,2006

It says The End on the cover. Simple as that.

we will just have to wait and see - sweet angel66
 * The publishers (on both sides of the Atlantic) says it's The End, so does AuthorTracker, every online store I can name, and most importantly, the author himself. If it's not The End, then that means that literally everyone associated with the books is just plain lying, and giving no hint that they are doing so.  Frankly, it wouldn't be playing fair.

thats true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweet angel66 (talk • contribs)

The forbidden fruit would be likely to be sugar plums. It's an anagram of lumps [of] sugar. That's probably the thing in the sugar bowl. At the beginning of the series, there was an italic word "was" that said that "he was intelligent". Hm. Also, Violet is likely going to die in the last book because in book two it said that Violet won't have the same nightmares of Uncle Monty Klaus did years later. Klaus might have mental problems years later. Also, I think the extra chapter could be an epilogue. "by vinny"

Cover Images
The U.K.'s cover for The End has been posted on the news section of UnfortunateEvents.com, the official site for the books in the U.K. run by Egmont (the publishers). I don't know how to and I don't think I can, but could somebody upload a picture of the U.K. cover and put it in the gallery box like on the pages for the other books?
 * I uploaded it.--CyberGhostface 12:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks.
 * Would you mind creating an account? It make it much easier for me when I am looking at my watchlist and trying to have discussions with other editors. --Philosophus T 17:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

cool picture-cutejulie

wharr?
Someone almost completely rewrote some of the article un an unprofessional and speculative tone. Can a professional editor fix this mess? Thanks -Power Slave 21:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

who did that?-cutejulie

bats
since when are they rodents

science like ever but how does that have anything to do with books or am i just tatally missing the point here

What else could they be, Bugs? No, a bat is a type of rodent. Leave off this kind of talk, however, as it has no real hold on anything to do with the book.

Claus???
Someone is claming to be Klaus from the future. Why has this not been taking off as vandilism? The only reason I could speculate, is that it really is Klaus, which I highly doubt. ~PhantomBPR


 * Vandalism, pure and simple. I've removed it, and will remove it again if I see it happen again. --Southwest 00:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

WHO CHANGED IT???
wHO CHANGED THE ARTICLE? iS THE INFORMATION ACURATE?

Boo!! I added on to it. They are hypotheses drawn from previous book facts. It's called speculations!!!! "vinny"

I Got An Early Copy!!!
I bought it 2 days ago. I finished it last night. Definitly not my favorite. My reaction at the end was, "I read 13 books for that ending?" It's pretty weird, but the rest of the book is good.

I <3 Kit Snicket 4EVER!!!

Haha, so there was someone else who got it early. Good to know. I was surprised to see it being delivered today --Omnieiunium 22:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

WHAT DO MEAN BY "AN EXCHANGED KISS BETWEEN HIM AND OLAF" ?

Eh, that was realy strange in the book. Ya know, when Olaf kissed Kit. I was like, ewwwww!!! Gross out! But, hey, ya gotta put it in the article, right? No matter how gross... ugh! *shudders* But, then they BOTH died, but that was still weird.

SOMEONE READ IT!!!!!!!!!!

On amazon.com, someone claimed to have received a copy of the book already. Then, the book suddenly becomes "unavailable." If this is true, "The End" in amazon.com became unavailable probably because the company might have gotten in trouble sending a copy early. If someone did receive a copy of the book PLEASE WHAT IS IT ABOUT!?!?!?!?!?

'''Uh, hey, someone put a lot of nonesense about someone shotting Olaf 16 times in the chest or something, some kind of nonesense... Will somebody please correct this? I would, but I dont have the time. I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, too in that section.'''

Quite wrong. Count Olaf kissing Kit was beautiful and sensitive - showing that even the most despiable person can be human. Lemony is a great author for doing that.

Possible Sequel
Even though it is unlikely, who thinks that Lemony Snicket will write one final book? He wrote Lemony Snicket: The Unathorized Autobiography and The Beatrice Letters. Perhaps he will write After the End or Before the Beginning. He has to have something that concludes the series and states (not hints) the answers to the mysteries. Don't you think that last picture is a clue? And, from The Beatrice Letters, 10-year-old Beatrice is searching for Violet, Klaus, and Sunny. Why? Could something happen to them? Will we know what became of the Quaqmires and what was that question amrk thing? Could that last book be about the question mark?

Probably a whole new series. As Snicket might put it, there are many kinds of ends, and ending a Series of Unfortunate Events does not end misfortune. In fact, the Baudelaires leave the diary with the same title on the island for others to continue- a probable hint that it isn't finished. But in my opinion this book is a rip-off. Saxophobia 10:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. I think a lot of people want all of these questions to be answered, but am I the only one who got the big theme he kept dropping "subtle" hints at in the last book? It's that a story can never be finished, and so you can never know all the answers, and sometimes you don't even want to. Not telling us everything was very deliberate, not to set us up for a sequel, but just to drive this message home to us. -- Lowfatsourcreme


 * "And Daniel Handler - the author's real name - warns that The End means the end.


 * "We have seen the last of the Baudelaires," he says definitively."


 * BBC
 * TheMadBaron 20:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

3rd ACCOMPANING BOOK:  "Horseradish: Bitter Truths You Can't Avoid" I hope it ststes the Quaqmire's destiny.

I have reason to believe that Beatrice Baudelaire will write a series, or a book. Perhaps there will be a book like a V.F.D handbook. With all due respect Anonymous reader

Olaf's doing
Why does it say that it's hinted that Olaf did not start the Bauldeliare fire. It's not hinted at all. Klaus staes that Olaf is the reason why there're orphans in the first place. Olaf say's "Is that what you think?" That could mean that Olaf meant that the Bauldelaire parents sealed their own fate for doing something to him. Also, Beatrice is revealed as the mother, Lemony has revealed that she died in a fire and that Olaf had something to do with it. Olaf defiantly did it, like he did to so many other families. Otherwise, everything like Esme purchasing the penthouse would not make sense.

EDIT - Esme never bought a penthouse. Read the books again. It is neither said that Olaf burned it down or he did. It is open to discussion... like everything else in the book.

The Vandalism
Does three blank-outs and vandalism consisting of the word "damnit" about seven hojillion times in one hour qualify for protection?67.142.130.25

this is kinda confusing what do you mean by vandalism this may be rele obvious but im a bit slow some times

2 Books in 1?
Should we mention there's sorta 2 books in The End? The end and and Chapter 14?

Back Pictures?
Recently bought a copy of The End and read the entire book and theres no 'Final Picture and Clue' pictures- is this something exclusive to the USA edition? As its not in the UK edition.

i know that really anoyed me beacause i couldn't work out half of the new files i think that the u.s shouldn't get more clues than the u.k

There's nothing all that special about the U.S.'s final picture(s). The first one is Lemony in a boat, but you don't see his face. The second is a blank patch of water save for a faint shadow of a question mark in the water.

Baudelaires' Death
I believe the orphans died, because apparantly the nameplate of the boat was Beatrice, and in the Beatrice Letters, the poster thing has a picture of a boat all wrecked up, with half a nameplate that has "Beatrice" on it, and Violet's Ribbon, Klaus' glasses, and Sunny's whisk. And, in the Beatrice Letters, the punch out letters are an anagram of "Beatrice Sank." What a depressing ending.

Wow, never noticed that. Good theory and observation. I think that they survived however, I mean they escaped so many situations.


 * "The Baudelaires watched her approach, wondering what the next chapter in this infant's life would be, and indeed that is difficult to say." [Chapter Fourteen, page 10]. So you see not even Lemony Snicket knows what happened to them. 62.136.55.237 10:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

"Oooh. I figured out something. Charles Bauldelaire wrote the french poem at the end. That's a good theory. I thought that happenned also. What is the ? ?!?"

I think it's a symbolic aspect in the book. It literally means the great unkown. It stands for all the mysteries and questions that can never be solved. Lemony thinks that some secrets and mysteries are so horrible and terrible; just as he described this thing. My guess is that no one knows what it is; they just know it's something unknown. That's why everyone is afraid of it; they don't know if it's good or bad; the unknown is the great evil.

I get it now! VFD's main mission is to learn everything, but by trying to learn "everything", they end up destroying themselves. It's not the unknown that is the evil, but trying to stop it that creates the problem.

I thought about that - them dying.

Oh, Daniel Handler said that the end of the story was the end. That means that they died, because of his definition of denouement and the end of the book. Look it up in the penultimate peril.

I do not think they died. Beatrice survived and she is looking for them in the beatrice letters.

Also, if they died than how does Beatrice later see Klaus and Sunny in TBL? And what about Violet going to the ebach for the third time?

I have not read TBL, but I can say that I believe that Violet was buried there, and she may have died.

"Also, if they died than how does Beatrice later see Klaus and Sunny in TBL? And what about Violet going to the ebach for the third time?" How can you be sure those are the same Volet, Klaus, and Sunny from The Series? Apparantly, they name people in VFD after other people in VFD so it could be their grandparents for all we know.

Grammar power, encyclopedia quality
At the ending thing of Chapter 14 (the thing with the descriptions of Daniel Handler and Brett Helquist) next to Snicket's box, it say "LEMONY SNICKET is still at large." Who knows, maybe Daniel Handler will start a new series.

This does not belong in an encyclopedia - it should be cleaned up. -Slash-

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. TheMadBaron 09:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

If he will make a new series, I hope he makes a series following the Quagmires.

Answer to mystery
I have a theory to the question mark. I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but the first picture of each book bears a clue almost exactly as the clue of the last picture of the previous book. For instance; The Austere Acedemy had a fish on the bumber of the car, the first puicture of the sixth book has a fish on a lampost. The 11th book has mushrooms if you look carefully just like the last picture of the tenth. The 10th has a smowman toy in the background like the snoewscouts handbook in the carniverous carnival picture. The 12th has a man holding a document that says Hoetl D just like the hat that was in the last picture of the 11th. Anyway, well the last picture of this book is the question mark. Maby this clue goes back to the bad beginning's first picture. Go to that picture and look carefully at the fire fighter's helmet. It has a question mark on it. This thing could stand for the official fire department and is trying to wipe out V.F.D.; that's why both the villains and noble people are afraid of it. It's not exactly evil; but to V.F.D. it's a great evil.

woa. That's awsome. You have a lot of spare time, don't you?

Heh, well I actaully wasn't reseraching it extensivly, it just came to mind. I noticed there was an odd symbol on the helmet a while ago, but I never noticed that it looked like a question mark until I saw the last illustration of this book.

Hey, that's a pretty good observation. Gonna jot that down in my commonplace book.

why doesn't the English books have the pictures in its crazy had no idea about any of this stuff because there are no pictures

"A review of the book"?
What's that doing here? Wikipedia isn't Amazon! If some external source has reviewed the book, then of course that can be cited, but a completely anonymous review that might be from anyone surely isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. Loganberry (Talk) 03:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article has too much original research, especially in the plot and theme sections. The theme is basically like an essay. Unless there is some book of commentary on The End, it is original research. bibliomaniac15 23:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That could describe nearly every ASOUE article. They nearly all need cleaning up for original research, but that's because the books are incredibly ambiguous and leave the reader to work out a lot. It is a problem, particularly with most fans being children.

Stop
Okay, listen it was never revealed that Olaf didn't burn down the house. I have no clue why people all of sudden don't think he did it. But, it has NEVER been stated that he didn't, so I'm going to remove the sentence that says he didn't do it. As far as I'm concerned he did do it, Lemony would've said something. All Olaf said was "Is that what you think." That's it, do you know how many things that can mean. Unless, you get a source from Lemony Snicket himself that says he didn't do it, this is complete speculation.

EDIT - Listen... if you read between the lines, you find out that Olaf never. Didn't you read the bit where he felt pain at Klaus's statement? You may as well delete the bit about Beatrice isn't the mother, because the line "Beatrice is your mother" is not in the book. Only joking but it is more or less stated that Olaf didn't burn down the house. If anything, it hints at Esme and Lemony

Remember that Olaf was shot with a harpoon and had a fungus in his lungs. I think he was in pain from that. Look, I'm not dismissing Olaf not doing it. I think it's very probable, but there's not enough proof until Lemony himself says something....and knowing him that won't be for a while.
 * We shouldn't say that Olaf did or didn't as its never clearly stated (and reading in the lines is still speculation) but we should at least mention Olaf's remark.--CyberGhostface 01:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. There's evidence that he did and didn't do it, but until we get a confirmation, we should only include Olaf's statements.
 * Please sign your comments, people, it makes these discussions a lot easier to follow. TheMadBaron 09:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Look at the whole interchange:

"Is that what you think?" he said finally.

"We know it," Sunny said.

"You don't know anything," Count Olaf said.

It is certainly ambiguous, but with a strong hint that it wasn't Olaf. Ronstew 16:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Medusoid Mycelium
The Medusoid Mycelium article needs your help! It only mentions The Grim Grotto, and I added the fact that it is also in "The End", but I haven't added anything to the role it plays in the book, the fact that hybrid apples also are an antidote, etc. Please contribute to that article! Emily (Funtrivia Freak) 22:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

(Also, the "summary" of this book is much too long. Emily (Funtrivia Freak) 22:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC) )

"HARPOON GUN" ARTICLE
I think we should a Harpoon Gun article in he VFD section. It appears to be an VFD weapon. We can use the picture in The End where Ishmael has the harpoon gun in his hand.

I think that article would be a stub for a looong time.


 * Please sign your comments on talk pages by using four tildes (" ~ ") . TheMadBaron 17:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It can't be any shorter than Ishamel's or Friday's article. We can put what it is, who it has killed, what books has it appeared in, VFD connections, and other literature-related things (i.e. Mr. POe = Edgar Alan Poe). Also a picture -- ABC (I don't have an account)

"Ishmael" ARTICLE
I'm a little new to wikipedia, so this is my best attempt at giving input! On the symbolism section, shouldn't there be something showing similarities between God (specifically the God of the Old Testament) and Ishmael? For example, his not forcing anyone to do anything, but them doing it anyway can be paralleled with the Christian threat of Hell to those who don't worship God, even though we have free will! And his secret hording of knowledge links to the lie that Adam/Eve would die if they ate from the tree of life. Someone could probably do this better than me, so I'll leave it at that.

RadicalPaddy17:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you know any credible sites or books that you can cite for this connection? bibliomaniac15 16:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Images
I think, in all fairness, Chapter Fourteen should have copies of the Images at the End of the American edition, in a similar fashion to the way each article has the pictures of the books at the end - so that British Readers can see what they missed. These would then be removed at 2007, when the British Copies with added images appeared.

More Revelations
Perhaps we'll learn more about all the stuff Handler leaves unanswered (grr...) in The End if he carries on releasing "Rare" editions of the books (as he did for the Bad Beginning - think about it, that would be thirteen extra chapters of stuff!) 22:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That, or they'll be answered in the Horseradish book. Also, some things are hintedand not directly said - but not everything was answered anyway.

Cover
I beleive that on the cover, framing the cover image is a thin border of apples. :) Might wanna add that in. ~DTD~

Chapter Fourteen
Should the article for The End cover Chapter Fourteen at all, given that the latter has its own article? As it stands, the Chapter Fourteen article is somewhat redundant.

Merging
I have proposed that Chapter Fourteen be merged into this article. Fancy formatting that Snicket did to make it a look like a seperate book aside, Chapter Fourteen was, when you get down to it, just an epilogue to the series and does not deserve an actual article by itself. A section? Sure. But not a full-fledged article.--CyberGhostface 22:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Better yet, I'm just putting it up for deletion. Adding the whole thing to this one would just bloat it. If that fails, I'll try to merge it again.--CyberGhostface 22:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

pardon me, but what page says the VFD means Volunteer Fire Dept.? i read the book and didnt see it
 * Its in The Slippery Slope.--CyberGhostface 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

And in THE END. It is not hited in THE END, it is directly said, only it's kind of hard to notice it

Chapter Fourteen Section
I get that you have issues with Chapter Fourteen, but thats no reason to delete the section. Even you have said that it deserves some mention. Clamster5 07:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't delete the section. All I deleted was a heading for it. The bulk of the section is still there, its just integrated into the main plot section. There's even a reference to it being the fourteenth chapter.--CyberGhostface 20:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Chapter Fourteen and Biblical Parallels
The whole Biblical parallels section is largely speculative and unsourced. With the exception of the apples and the snake, I don't think anyone can say what Snicket was referring to or referencing.

We don't need a whole new section for Chapter Fourteen. Its fine just integrating it into the plot section and for possible secrets to be lowered in the bottom half. Let's not make the page more cluttered than it has to be.--CyberGhostface 23:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Look at your previous statement. Note the bolded words: "(Chapter Fourteen) does not deserve an actual article by itself. A section? Sure. But not a full-fledged article.--CyberGhostface 22:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I can read, thank you. The article has a section on Chapter Fourteen. I haven't removed any of your precious information. It just doesn't have a header. Why a header is so important to you I don't know.--CyberGhostface 20:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Merging
The result of the AFD discussion was No Consensus as the majority of the people called for merging/redirecting than outright deletion. The admin also put merging templates on both pages.

The majority of people called for merging in that discussion.

People in favor of merging and/or deleting
 * CyberGhostface
 * Humblefool
 * T Rex
 * Zetawoof
 * JChap2007
 * Lee M (who said keep or merge)
 * Eddie Willers
 * Metropolitan90
 * Kevinalewis
 * JCoug
 * Biblomaniac15

People in favor of keeping
 * Clamster5
 * Arvedui
 * Lee M (who said keep or merge)

Being that the people in favor of merging was 10-2 (not counting Lee M who voted for both reasons...counting him makes it 11-3)

Because of this, I'm going to redirect Chapter 14. And before anyone asks, the reason why I reverted the previous attempt to merge it prior to the AFD closing was because there are strict rules not to do so until its over.--CyberGhostface 00:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)