Talk:The Epstein School

Technology
The "technology" section was so blatantly, shameless promotional that I had to delete it entirely. If anybody wants to put in actual information, sourced to something more reliable than the subject's own website, they are welcome to do so. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  21:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Reply:

Mike, I respectfully disagree. It had three links:

It was linked to a wiki page about SACS, a wiki page about web 2.0 and and a vodcast about the pros and cons of social networking. The vodcast happened to be on the website because it was created by the school. The vodcast was very informative and educational. Are you saying that it should not be linked to a website even if it is informative and educational?

Further the link was directly to the video itself as an wmv file...not as a link to the website that would be viewed and then clicked. When the video was over a viewer would still be on on wiki site...it never went to the "website" in that way...just a vodcast hosted there. Clou2epstein (talk) 23:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your point. The "technology" section was highly promotional, not neutral and factual. That has nothing to do with links to "vodcasts" (whatever those are) and other links. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  02:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Follow-up Reply:

Mike, My point is that the technology section was factual. The reason the Vodcast was introduced was to suppport the concept of appropirate use of technology in todays world. FYI... a VODCAST is a video podcast, and is a current trend in the educational technology arena, thus it was included. I respectfully request that the content be reverted.Clou2epstein (talk) 03:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The section was full of phrases like, "The Epstein school understands the importance of technology in today’s rapidly changing world and provides an innovative technology environment which can quickly adapt". That is not encyclopedic information, that is promotional language suitable only for a recruitment pamphlet. This is why we so strongly discourage edits by people with a conflict of interest: they often have trouble distinguishing between neutral presentation of verifiable information, and promotion of a subject about which they feel strongly.-- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok Mike...I understand. I changed it....:)Clou2epstein (talk) 00:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, you didn't. Due to your edits here, I have filed a report at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard for other editors to examine. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  19:35, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

REPLY To Orange Mike: Respectfully, I believe your statements here are misleading. I have not re-inserted the previous information...I changed/edited it after our discussion and let you know that I did it. I edited out the language that you indicated that you felt was not neutral. You never indicated you had a problem with the educational VODCAST that was listed as an educational tool. In fact you stated that you did not know what a vodcast was. I must say, if you felt that there was an additional issue, you could have simply talked to me about it in the discussion. I am very easy to talk to, have worked continuously to improve the page and ha ve been polite and courteous.

ThanksClou2epstein (talk) 23:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I took a look at Mike's second deletion. While you may have removed the one sentence Mike cited as an example of the promotional tone of that section, you left everything else, which in my opinion was also promotional. So that's problem one. The other problem is that the only source citation was to a primary source (see wp:sources). If you want to re-add the material, I suggest you find a reliable secondary source, such as a news story (not a press release reprinted in a newspaper), put in just what the source says and nothing more, and cite the source. If you can track down a source I would be happy to help with wording or citation. Rees11 (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

COI
As the COI tag seems controversial, I think we should discuss removing it. The article as it stands now looks pretty good to me. I'm not a big fan of "Recognition" sections but it does seem well sourced. If we can come to an agreement on the Vodcast section I would support removing the COI tag (by someone other than the editor who has the COI). Rees11 (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

REPLY: Thank you I appreciate that Rees11. I have truly worked diligently to enure the page represent the educational community well.

In response to the Rees11 13:19, 26 September 2009 posting above his last response: What you indicated in your statement above again is untrue. I VOLUNTARILY, after reading Orange Mike's comments removed substantially more that he never even discussed, as after thinking about his comments, I took them to heart, and felt other language should also be removed including the SACS language...which by the way, I could cite.

Below is the original text that Mike objected to...as well as the revised side by side. As you can see the revised text was significantly changed to be neutral in tone and discuss the topic of technology from an educational standpoint. The vodcast, I felt was educational and contained important information. I continue to act in good faith and have been polite.

HERE IS ORIGINAL TECHNOLOGY TEXT WHICH ORANGE MIKE OBJECTED TO BUT THAT AFTER LISTENING TO HIS COMMENTS, I CHANGED SUBSTANTIALLY TO MAKE NEUTRAL IN TONE:

Students live in a digital world where they are exposed to an extraordinary amount of information. According to SACS, Epstein's Media and Technology program was held up as a model for other schools. The Epstein school understands the importance of technology in today’s rapidly changing world and provides an innovative technology environment which can quickly adapt to new developments in the field. The goal for students is that they grow beyond the mechanics of technology and acquire advanced research and critical thinking skills to become information literate. In today’s technological environment, information literacy is essential in building a foundation for success in the 21st century. It is the core of Epstein’s Media and Technology Program. Students learn to access, evaluate and manage data as part of the research and critical thinking process.

Informational Vodcast: More than ever, children are taking part in the online techno-social world known as Web 2.0. Children today are bombarded with messages and peer pressure to engage in online social networking. The Epstein School seeks to ensure that students are educated in the safe, responsible and moral ways in which to use technology and thus, created an online multimedia vodcast to help better understand both the benefits and the potential risks of online social networking.

HERE IS THE REVISED TEXT THAT WAS PLACE UP AFTER HEARING COMMENTS FROM ORANGE MIKE:

Students live in a digital world where they are exposed to an extraordinary amount of information. The school's goal for students is to grow beyond the mechanics of technology and acquire research and critical thinking skills in order to become information literate. In today’s technological environment, information literacy is essential in building a foundation for success in the 21st century.

Informational Vodcast: More than ever, children are taking part in the online techno-social world known as Web 2.0. Children today are bombarded with messages and peer pressure to engage in online social networking. In an effort to ensure that students are educated in the safe, responsible and moral ways in which to use technology and the school created an online multimedia vodcast to help better understand both the benefits and the potential risks of online social networking.

REQUEST AGAIN:

I respectfully request that the COI be removed for four reasons: 1.The offensive Tech language is not even on the page. It was removed. 2. The technology section revision discussion was misleading and innaccurate. 3. There is now discussion about the tech section and I continue to work hard to improve the section. 4.I have acted in good faith to be informative and neutral and have invited discussion/input.

Thank YouClou2epstein (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The revised text still reads like an ad or brochure. Can you find some other sources saying anything about this 'informational vodcast'? If not, maybe it doesn't belong in the article. Dougweller (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just looked for anything mentioning Epstein's vodcast and could find nothing. I don't think it should be in the article. Dougweller (talk) 18:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

REPLY:

While I respectfully disagree about the revised language, I am always happy to listen and invite input from others. I have reviewed other pages that are deemed "good articles" and feel this is inline with the tone of other articles. While I believe that the use of the word informational an obvious point, as it provides information for parents/students on the pros and cons use of social netwoking, I am happy to work toward resolution.

HOWEVER, in the meantime the langauge is not even on the page and I again, respectfully request removal of COI since the disputed information is in discussion, is not even on the page.

ThanksClou2epstein (talk) 19:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I added the Solomon Schechter Day School Association to the page. Akidd71 (talk) 03:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Following this talk page has been quite interesting. So I went and looked at some other school pages - in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodward_academy - I've formatted this article based on the woodward example and believe the writing/content is similar. I don't see a need for the COI anymore. Akidd71 (talk) 05:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't hold up Woodward Academy as an example. It uses nothing but self-published sources. While these are acceptable in this case, I wouldn't base an entire article around them.


 * I would like to hear from the editor who originally tagged this article before removing the COI tag. Rees11 (talk) 13:34, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I've removed the COI tag as I can't see any problem with the current article. I agree with other editors that the information on technology is not appropriate for inclusion on this page. Smartse (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Assessment
I am assessing this article for WikiProject Schools following a request. The article needs more content, I don't think there is quite enough here to justify C-class, with most sections being short. After reviewing the history I agree the technology section was promotional and the article is better off without it. Bullet pointed lists should be avoided if possible, the National recognition section should be converted to prose. As it stands the way the information here is presented reads as slightly promotional and perhaps this information would better off put into prose in an expanded history section. Many sections are missing e.g. alumni, see WP:WPSCH/AG for guidance. The lead will need expanding, it should both summarise and introduce the article, see WP:LEAD. Referencing is good though much of the sourcing is based on the school website (primary sources), more variety is needed with more focus on secondary sources. Well the school may have national recognition, there is still not quite enough to justify more than Low-importance at this time. Camaron · Christopher · talk 18:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your input...We will continue to work diligently on expansion of the areas as suggested and will add sections moving forward...a work in progress. In fact, I have begun expanding sections already and have added more 3rd party citations. With my appreciation ThanksClou2epstein (talk) 21:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The article is coming on, there is probably enough here for C-class. Use of citation templates for references would help make the article look more tidy, see WP:CITE and cite web for an example. Bold is used excessively, see WP:MOSBOLD. Some pictures of the school would also be nice. Camaron · Christopher · talk 09:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

REPLY: Cameron. Thank you very much for your encouragement, kind words and suggestions. The Epstein School article is a work in progress, but I continue to work diligently toward improvement. I am planning on incorporating all of the above reccommendations you offered and more. It is my hope that I will deliver on my promise to represent the educational community well. I have continued to add/grow/develop sections. I hope you like the progress made today: I worked on development of Middle School academics....next on to Elementary, alumni...citation templates, images etc.

With my appreciation for your efforts and input.Clou2epstein (talk) 00:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * One little tip, if you give references names then you only need to use them once instead of listing the whole reference again. I'll do it to one (reference 5) so you can see what I mean. Start the ref with as usual. Then to use the same reference again add Smartse (talk) 10:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

REPLY: Thank you for the tip Smartse! Clou2epstein (talk) 12:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem Smartse (talk) 13:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

One other thing that would really improve the article would be some photos. If you could take some with a digital camera I'd be happy to help talk you through uploading them onto wikipedia. Smartse (talk) 13:20, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

REPLY:I definitely plan to move in that direction Smartse...I just want to build some text content first, to be sure the graphics will appropriately represent. Thank you for your offer of assistance. I think I will be fine with the process. But if I have trouble, I will definitely take you up on your kind offer. With my gratitude Clou2epstein (talk) 13:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Re. Conflict of interest
Following various discussions, I have removed the "COI" tag from the article; I understand that intends to make further suggestions here rather than editing the article, as advised in WP:COI, WP:BESTCOI etc., and I'm happy to assume good faith.  Chzz  ►  02:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Requesting assistance
I've moved the following request from my talk page to here  Chzz  ►  08:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Chzz, I would appreciate it if you would consider adding the information below to The Epstein School page to expand the introduction after the last sentence in that section. It is my plan to add the Eagle/crest image as well soon, at the same time as I add the school image. I hope to begin graphics enhancement sometime next week after I get text complete....been very busy:

The Main Campus is located in Sandy Springs and an additional Intown Preschool campus is located in Buckhead. The school has a summer camp that is open to the public. The school's mascot is the Eagle.

I would also like to add the following as an intro to the Technology section (before the text that is currently there as was done on the other user page you created for me to work on):

Epstein's Media and Technology program's primary focus is on information literacy. Students are immersed in technology in all subject areas across the curriculum. The school has a wireless mobile technology lab; every classroom is equiped with computers that are internet-enabled. Elective classes such as digital photography, website design and robotics offer students additional ways to enrich their studies.

Clou2epstein (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I've moved this info here, to see if others want to work with it - I won't add it at this time; interfaithfamily.com looks like a primary source, and I'm not sure about newcomeratlanta.com.


 * Clou2epstein, the problem regarding references is this; imagine that I did add the fact that - and then someone else edited the page, and changed it to  (or something worse) - how would we be able to check which one is correct?


 * The second paragraph is not neutral - the phrases "immersed in technology in all subject areas" and "ways to enrich their studies" sound like a marketing brochure, and are not encyclopaedic.  Chzz  ►  08:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Requesting an editor assist with items 1 & 3 bulleted and re-addressed/previously replied to below from discussion above: Clou2epstein (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, Newcomer Magazine is an Atlanta Lifestyle and Relocation Magazine....and the article is a valid 3rd party source.

'''So, could an editor please insert the summer camps line to the introduction right before the head of school line?

Here it is:''' The school has a summer camp that is open to the public.


 * I understand what you mean about the interfaith site, and while it is not self-sourced, I understand it might appear that way...However, I have several others that could be used instead...just thought that also reflected the interfaith aspect that was also referenced in the Atlanta-Journal Constituion article. I guess however, what is perplexing to me is that I see so many schools self-sourced on this issue to their own websites (where their campuses are located etc) to their website as it seems relatively benign. Not sure why this is not ok for The Epstein School. Can someone please explain why so many schools I see are self-sourced to their own website with no mention/citation etc on the page? Nevertheless, I will come back with additional sources on this another day. As for the mascot...I thought that the graphic I will provide would also validate that...no? If not, again, I have other sources on this...not a problem. I'll get back to you.


 * As for the Technology intro paragraph, here is a re-write to eliminate "brochure language". Would an editor now consider adding this before the text that is currently there to expand the technology section?

Epstein's Media and Technology program's primary focus is on information literacy. Students utilize technology in all subject areas across the curriculum. The school has a wireless mobile technology lab; every classroom is equiped with computers that are internet-enabled. Elective classes such as digital photography, website design and robotics are offered to students.

With My Continued Appreciation For Your Efforts Clou2epstein (talk) 00:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Re. other schools - to put it briefly, we know that there are lots of bad articles on Wikipedia, and we're trying hard to fix it - but that doesn't excuse adding to the problem. See WP:OTHERSTUFF.


 * Re. the edits - I'll try and get back to this ASAP, but if anyone else wants to in the meantime, go for it.  Chzz  ►  00:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Working on it now...  Chzz  ►  02:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅ I've added a cut-down version of the above - a brief mention of summer camp in the lede, and re. the technology, I didn't add "Epstein's Media and Technology program's primary focus is on information literacy" because A) that isn't explicit in the ref, and b) it's quite promotional in tone. I did add info on internet computers and the electives.  Chzz  ►  02:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

REPLY Thank you. I appreciate your input, time, suggestions and assistance. Clou2epstein (talk) 14:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Pic
I have now uploaded The Epstein School building image:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Epstein10-09-250px-CL3.jpg

Can you add this to the page near the top right please?...to the right of the History section.

Thanks Clou2epstein (talk) 22:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

✅  Chzz  ►  06:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Chzz Clou2epstein (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Epstein Eagle Mascot/Crest
Could an editor please add the following Eagle mascot image to the left side of the page (opposite the school image or reverse the order if you feel it is more appropriate for school to be on the left and the Eagel mascot crest/logo on right) near the history section of The Epstein School article as well as the text below:

Epstein_Eagle_Mascot_Crest_logo_wiki.jpg‎ (164 × 170 pixels, file size: 9 KB, MIME type: image/jpeg)

Please add the following text to the end of the history section:

The school's mascot is the Eagle, as represented by the Epstein Eagle crest.

Thanks Clou2epstein (talk) 00:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

✅ Because WP:MOS recommends avoiding having left-hand images at the top of sections, and 'sandwiching' the text between images, I thought it better to a) move the main pic up into the infobox (under the logo), and b) add this on the right. I hope that's OK.  Chzz  ►  07:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

ReplyNot only is it ok...but it is prefered! Great idea. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it....so I bestow this barnstar upon you with my gratitude...:)

Thanks, Clou2epstein (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Edit Request
I am going to request the first line to the bilingual section be edited to the following:

The Middle School curriculum is bilingual.

I request this for two reasons...neutrality and repetitive wording on curriculum. Surprised at my neutrality?..:)

Also, please correct spelling of rennovation to renovation in the history section.

Clou2epstein (talk) 00:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Great, I've made the changes. Just so you know, while Chzz is away, I'll keep an eye on this page and try to help you out where I can. Regards,  AJ  Cham  01:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help and the future help.

Clou2epstein (talk) 01:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

One other request
I just noticed that somehow over time the citation listed as #11 in the 1st sentence of the bilingual section was changed...not sure when because I just noticed it. But it is incorrect...the ajc article as far as I can see doesn't reference that item....wish it did. I like that diversity piece....just don't want someone coming through and placing templates on it for an obvious editing oversight.

The correct citation should be either of the following listed as # 16 or #12 respectively on the citation list...take your pick, both do the job.

http://www.ed.gov/news/newsletters/innovator/2005/0516.html#1

http://jewishatlanta.org/page.aspx?id=38409

Thanks again Clou2epstein (talk) 02:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅,  AJ Cham  22:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank You
Thanks AJCham...I appreciate your assistance. I am continuing to make progress with the page. It has come a long way don't you think? I am going to begin working on the Hebrew translation very soon. I was counting on input from Chzz during that time (not for the translation but for any logistical issues that might arise). However, he did provide me with the basic framework of how to proceed with an international page....the reverse links to each page etc. Are you also familiar with this procedure in case I have questions or is there someone else that you could recommend? With my appreciation for your input and guidance. Clou2epstein (talk) 02:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Re-assessment
It has been requested that I re-assess this article. I have decided to maintain the existing rating of C / Low. The article is coming on nicely, and while I recognise some national recognition I do not think there is quite enough here to give Mid-importance. More content is needed to justify B-class, currently the only large section is the history section. See WP:WPSCH/AG for ideas on what school articles should contain. Campus? Alumni? Academics? Extra-curricular activities? Also as I said before use of reference templates per WP:CITET would make the reference section look a lot cleaner. Camaron · Christopher · talk 16:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)