Talk:The Few

Would it not be good to find those names in "List of World War II aces from the United Kingdom" who were among "The Few" and display that list here, or have a list of "The Few"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SamBlob (talk • contribs)
 * I don't think so, seeing as though a fair number of "The Few" were not British but were rather from countries like New Zealand, Australia, Poland and South Africa. So adding only those from the list of British aces would present a skewed and inaccurate picture. It would also be needless duplication of the lists that already exist, while also being difficult to verify and a considerable research task. Are we absolutely certain of the names of each and every pilot in Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain? It also arguably does not add much of encyclopaedic value to the article, so resources are probably better spent pursuing other, more useful, information? &mdash;  Imp i  20:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If lists of The Few already exist, then perhaps links should be added to some of them? Respectfully, SamBlob 01:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The Few as a myth
Today the concept of the "Few" who won the Battle of Britain is largely seen as a historical inaccuracy seeing as RAF had more air planes than the Luftwaffe and an almost equal number of pilots. Should this page be shown to reflect this? Taybot 02:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the best evidence we have is that the RAF's Fighter Command was significantly outnumbered for probably the entirety of the Battle of Britain, and certainly at the time that Churchill made his famous speech containing the term. Moreover, as Churchill's speech makes clear, the term was given more in reference to the fact that at the time the entirety of Britain's defence and probably also its eventual fate were in the hands of such a relatively small group of men. &mdash; Impi (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This has just been bought up again. There is nothing to suggest from Churchills speech that he was comparing the sizes of the Luftwaffe and the RAF, only that the fate of an entire nation of millions fell on the shoulders of a relatively few number (a few thousand pilots). Debunking a meaning that doesn't exist doesn't have a place in an article. ( Hohum  @ ) 14:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Despite asking the editor to take this to talk, he did not, and I have reverted his changes, and asked again. The quote is about the many (british civilians) and the few (british pilots), not the many (german pilots) and the outnumbered {british pilots). The "debunking" is working on a strawman which doesn't exist.
 * It is alluding that the fate of nations usually swings on the actions of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people - while in this case it was upon the shoulders of a few thousand. ( Hohum  @ ) 00:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hohum has missed the point of my initial edit. Churchill's statement was used to create a myth. Churchill adopted, or bought into this myth, created by historians and popular writers, after the war. He clearly makes the connection - after the war. Cites will follow. Dapi89 (talk) 08:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

CR Davis
Who was CR Davis? Does he have a wiki article? I can find no information online about him. Drutt (talk) 23:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission lists a Carl Raymond Davis, but gives his nationality as British (not US), and rank as Flight Lieutenant (not Flying Officer), but squadron is correct. I know there is a book which gives basic details of all Battle of Britain pilots and air crew - see Brian Carbury for full info - I don't know if it's on Google Books at all.  David Underdown (talk) 09:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

From The Pre-Eagles by David A. Johnson:
 * ''Pilot Officer Carl Davis was another Yank serving in RAF's Fighter Command, one whose true citizenship was not so much covered up as it was simply overlooked. In official records, Davis is listed as South African. Davis, indeed, had been born in South Africa, a fact he chose to emphasize when he presented himself to the RAF in the summer of 1940. Davis's parents, however, were US citizens, and so was he. At the time of his service in the RAF, Davis held a US passport.


 * ''In mid-summer 1940, with the German onslaught about to commence, Pilot Officer Davis was posted to RAF's 601 (County of London) Squadron, which flew Hawker Hurricane fighters out of Tangmere aerodrome in West Sussex. This unit soon found itself in heavy action. So did Davis. By August, Davis already had shot down five German planes. By September 4, the RAF had credited the American pilot with destruction of eleven and a half Luftwaffe aircraft.


 * ''Thus, although no official US records ever have recognized him as such, Davis may well have been the first US citizen t9 become a World War II ace.


 * Like Reilly, Pilot Officer Davis was shot down and killed, his death corning at the hands of the Luftwaffe on September 6. He is buried in St. Mary's Churchyard in Storrington, West Sussex.

Drutt (talk) 00:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Goodness, the article (Carl Raymond Davis) now exists. That was quick. Drutt (talk) 00:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It'd been on my "to-do" list for a while and your comments kicked me into action - just need to tidy it up a bit now! --KizzyB (talk) 12:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Since reading a supplemental publication to "Battle of Britain - Then & Now" (1989) CR Davis' complicated nationality issue was finally clarifed (by his sister) - I've added the references to his own wiki article.Harryurz (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

According to the Wiki article, he became a British citizen in 1932. Doesn't that contradict his nationality tag here? The most logical choices, in order, are British, then South African, then American. So either someone should put him down as British or put the flags of all three nations there. laddiebuck (talk) 04:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The Battle of Britain 'Dates'
The article mentions the Battle occuring between 10 July and 31 October 1940; this was in actual fact the dates decided by the RAF between which any aircrew flying a fighter operation could qualify for the Battle of Britain clasp. Other historians - including German- have differing opinions on when the battle started and (particularly) when it finished. A small point perhaps, but it would make the article that more accurate if this was mentioned.Harryurz (talk) 21:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This issue of when to "date" the Battle was previously discussed. Any add-on to the "leade" could be made with proper citations, of course. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC).
 * Since by definition here we're talking about those on the British side, it makes sense to use the British dates. Anyone who fought solely outside those dates isn't counted as one of The Few, by definition.  Maybe this could be clarified though.  David Underdown (talk) 09:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The ace's score table and its reference
Looking at the aces 'scores' table and the verification reference given, am I alone in feeling some concern that the reference link is to a website that contains no verification to actual documentation, publications or records? Comparison with the tome 'Aces High' by Shores & Williams ( the accepted Bible in the case of RAF aces) throws up immediate anomalies in totals pilots claimed between the accepted dates of the Battle, and as they are derived from verified primary sources (ie RAF records) should form a more accurate picture of the claims and totals of the B of B aces than the table given. What are other people's opinions? If all are agreed I can transpose the more accurate data, but I don't want to kick off a war of words! Thanks Harryurz (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

As there's been no comments -positive or negative- if theres no objection I'll start to reference the aces' scores from the Shores/Williams book, which directly links to combat reports in the Public records office as primary source material, and alter the claims made by those pilots between July-October 1940, the accepted period of the Battle here in the UK. Thanks Harryurz (talk) 00:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I've been doing a spot of digging about this myself, according to http://www.the-battle-of-britain.co.uk/pilots/La-pilots.htm#LaceyJH "for shooting down 5 enemy aircraft between May 10 and June 19, 1940, during the Battle for France, James Harry "Ginger" Lacey was awarded the D.F.M. and Croix de Guerre, and was Mentioned in Dispatches. For destroying another 18 between July the 10th and October the 31st 1940 he was given a bar to his D.F.M. This was the greatest number attained by an R.A.F. fighter pilot during the Battle of Britain." What say Shores & Williams about him?Varsovian (talk) 13:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Varsovian- page 384 of Shores/Williams' 'Aces High' list his claims derived from the RAF/MOD records; this agrees with the 5 claimed in the Battle of France May-June 1940, and then lists 18 claimed destroyed (20th July to 30th October 1940) which tallies with most accounts I've seen of his combat record. Reading through the book the highest number claimed during the 10th July to 31st October period generally accepted as the period of the Battle ( at least in the UK) is 21 by P/O Eric Lock of 41 Squadron. For whatever reason Lock has never really been mentioned with the likes of Lacey, Frantisek, Bader etc. as one of the prominent aces during the Battle, so I'm a little wary of revising the table here, as the way Wiki works someone, somewhere, will take offence argue its not correct and an edit war kicks off! Harryurz (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Major changes to the article should be addressed here first
A recent edit involved major changes. Please describe the reasons for the edit here. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 04:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC).

Popular culture
I think the section about a Hollywood film really needs to be updated or removed from the article. The story was back in 2003, it's now 2012. Since then no such film has ever been made. Wolcott (talk) 05:22, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Ace in a day
Hi. Just noticed that A G Lewis isn't in your list of the ace in a day names - he shot down 6 on 27 Sept - surely that qualifies? Gbawden (talk) 12:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

"The Few" is a myth
Today the concept of the "Few" who won the Battle of Britain is largely seen as a historical inaccuracy seeing as RAF had more aeroplanes than the Luftwaffe and an almost equal number of pilots. Should this page be shown to reflect this? (165.120.240.205 (talk) 16:07, 11 September 2016 (UTC))


 * Not sure where you get this idea from, please read the article, the "Few" has nothing to do with the number of pilots or aircraft, please read the original quote, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 16:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Weirdly, the 2016 IP comment exactly duplicated the 2007 comment at the top of the page. Churchill's remarks related to the fact that a nation of tens of millions relied wholly, for those months in 1940, on a few thousand RAF personnel. In July the RAF had about 640 fighters, including the Blenheims and Defiants, and about 1,250 fighter pilots. The Luftwaffe had 1,200 bombers, 280 dive bombers, 760 single-engined fighters, 220 twin-engined fighters and 140 reconnaissance aircraft, totalling 2,600, all of which the RAF had to deal with. (Terraine, The Right of the Line, pp.174, 181.) In addition, the weight of the battle fell mainly on 11 Group, which only mustered about 250 fighters serviceable, with pilots, on a given day. The fact that the German numbers kept falling throughout the battle, while the British numbers were fairly steady, because the British were producing new aircraft and pilots a lot faster than the Germans, doesn't diminish the achievement of the Few. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:24, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

List of surviving members of the Few
As there have a similar pages listing the surviving people who served in WWI, would it not be a good idea to list here the 17 (as at Oct 2016 according to source cited in the article) members of the Few?

Picture caption
The 14 September 1942 picture of Dowding with some of the Few, if you click on it, has a caption containing a rather grave sexist mistake. Section Officer (not 'Flight Officer') E C Henderson MM, standing next to Dowding, is blandly referred to as 'an aide'. Dowding had retired from the RAF by then -- hence the bowler hat -- and did not have military ADCs. In fact Elspeth Henderson is present as one of the Few herself. During the heavy raids on Biggin Hill, 30 August to 1 September 1940, as Corporal Henderson, she continued to man and operate the station switchboard, maintaining contact with 11 Group, despite at one point a direct hit on the ops room where she was working. She also dug a number of WAAF colleagues out of a collapsed air-raid shelter in which they had been buried alive. She later said it was the engineers who did all the work to keep the station in touch with the outside world, but the station commander disagreed. Along with Sergeants Helen Turner and Joan Mortimer, she was awarded the Military Medal for 'courage and example of a high order.' Only six MMs were awarded to WAAF personnel during the war, half of them to those Biggin Hill girls.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1527548/Elspeth-Green.html

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/raf-heroine-mans-medal-courageous-1066376

Although Henderson (later Mrs Elspeth Green) may not now be as famous as some of the pilots in the picture (Max Aitken, Sailor Malan, Al Deere, Richard Hillary), she was distinctly famous in 1942 when the picture was taken. Later in life she was always an honoured guest at the annual memorial service for Dowding at Moffat. Henderson Grove, in the modern housing development on the site of Biggin Hill, is still named after her. For a better idea of how she looked when young, see Dame Laura Knight's striking double portrait of her with Sgt Turner, painted in 1941.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/443041682076772069/

Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:05, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Conquered Nations
"The remainder were not British, many coming from parts of the British Empire (particularly New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and South Africa), as well as exiles from many conquered European nations, particularly from Poland and Czechoslovakia. Other countries supplying smaller numbers included Belgium, France, Ireland, and the United States."

Perhaps my understanding of World War II is a little rusty, but weren't Belgium and France among the conquered nations? --The Vital One (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The main distinction is between larger and smaller numbers, not whether they were conquered. (Hohum @ ) 15:51, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

"The Few" is just propaganda
The RAF was almost as large as the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. In any case we now know Hitler never intended to attempt an invasion of the UK. The German High Command began preparing for Barbarossa in July 1940. (86.132.175.178 (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC))
 * The "Few" (airmen) is contrasted to the "many" (entire population of the UK), in the speech. It is not a comparison of the size of the RAF to the Luftwaffe. Also, WP:NOTAFORUM. (Hohum @ ) 22:12, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in The Few
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of The Few's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto": From 2019 in England:  From Australia:  From Czech Republic:  From Poland:  From Winston Churchill: James 1970, pp. 265–66</li> <li>From 2019 in the United Kingdom: </li> <li>From British Empire: Porter, p. 8.</li> <li>From Maurice Mounsdon: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 10:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)