Talk:The Finale (Will & Grace)/GA1

GA Review
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This is my first time reviewing a GAN, so please bear with me if I'm a bit slow! Sanders11 (talk) 12:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to go through the article a section at a time and will note any problems I come across. It's been a while since I've seen this episode, apologies if my memory is a bit rusty. The article is in good shape, and the majority of what I'm suggesting are fairly minor points that I'm being quite picky about.

Lead
 * "In the finale, Grace and Leo have a baby girl, and Will and Vince have a baby boy. Will and Grace have a falling out that lasts for years. They eventually meet up when their children meet in college and make up." - Don't they fall out before they have their children? The first sentence is a bit repetitive, maybe something along the lines of "Will and Grace have a falling out that lasts for years. They each have a child with their respective partners, and eventually reconcile when their children start college together."


 * "Meanwhile, Karen's arch-enemy Beverley Leslie makes an offer to Jack which ultimately leads to Jack inheriting Leslie's fortune." - Any reason for calling him Leslie and not Beverley? This sentence feels a little odd since the previous sentences tell what happened between Will and Grace whereas this one only really hints to Jack and Karen's storyline. Maybe explain what the offer is?
 * Do you really think it's necessary? It's only a minor part of the plot.


 * I think all the characters should given their surnames with the actors' names in parenthesis afterwards.
 * I think that's a bit too detailed for the lead. I'll add the surnames to the plot section.


 * "took the news about the ending well" - The news that the show was ending? The news of what the final scene would be? It's not very clear.


 * "began sobbing" - maybe "became emotional"?


 * "NBC heavily promoted the finale. The main cast members appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show and The Today Show to bid farewell, and an hour-long series retrospective, "Say Goodnight Gracie", featuring interviews with the cast, crew, and guest stars, preceded the hour-long series finale." - The short sentence followed by the long doesn't read very well, try and even them out, or just ditch the first one.


 * No mention of the guest stars in the infobox?
 * I don't think there were any guest stars in this episode.
 * Harry Connick, Jr., Bobby Cannavale, Leslie Jordan, and Kevin Bacon guest starred.
 * All the credited guest stars should be there. If you can find a press release then use that, otherwise I suspect you'll have to watch the credits in the episode.Sanders11 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Added.

Plot
 * Again I'd like to see consistency with characters having surnames but it's a minor point, but if characters and actors are linked in the lead I wouldn't bother linking them again in the plot.
 * ✅ Kept the links though, as I think they should be linked both in the lead and the main "article body".


 * If I remember correctly Rosaria had a sex change in Grace's dream didn't she? Not sure if it's worth mentioning, just putting it out there.
 * She didn't have a sex change.
 * My bad, must be thinking of something else.Sanders11 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "In real life" - Well technically it's not real life as it's fiction, try to reword that.


 * "Grace is not sure if she wants to spend the rest of her life living with Will. So, when Leo (Harry Connick, Jr.) shows up and proposes to her – not even aware that she is pregnant – she immediately accepts." - maybe "Grace is not sure if she wants to spend the rest of her life living with Will, so when Leo (Harry Connick, Jr.) proposes to her, she immediately accepts." Might be worth giving some context as to who Leo is (ex-husband/boyfriend, I can't remember what their relationship is at that point). Not sure that it's necessary to mention he is unaware of her pregnancy, but if you feel it is, it would be good to explain in some way that he is tha father.


 * Does the episode say how long they live in Rome for?
 * They lived in Rome for a year.
 * ✅ Added.


 * Try to merge the sentence about NYC and Rome with the first part of the next sentence about Lila, or maybe change the "they" to Grace and Leo as it could sound like Lila is Will and Vince's.


 * "gotten back together" - a bit unencyclopedic, maybe reconciled?


 * Might be worth mentioning that Will was a sperm donor for his child, your call.
 * I don't really think that's important.


 * "meanwhile" is used a few times, maybe something like "Jack and Karen grow tired of the fact...", and although it's implied, it's not totally clear that the friends in that sentence refers to Will and Grace.
 * Looking at it now, saying "Will and Grace" in three consecutive sentences is a tad repetitive, but I can't see a better way of putting it. Sanders11 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at it now, saying "Will and Grace" in three consecutive sentences is a tad repetitive, but I can't see a better way of putting it. Sanders11 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Karen and Jack, meanwhile, are tired of the fact that their friends are not speaking with each other. They lure Will and Grace to the same place and force them to make up." - I would join those sentences. At that point are they successful at getting them to make up, or would "try to get them" or something to that effect be more accurate?
 * Do you have any suggestions on how to merge them? I believe they're successful, by the way.


 * "The four get together at Will and Vince's apartment. Even though they have a pleasant evening together, Will and Grace's relationship is tentative and somewhat awkward." I would also join these sentences.


 * "Stan's money was all loaned" - Did he receive the loan or give out the loan?
 * This is what Karen said, "I just got off the phone with my accountant. Turns out, everything Stan had was borrowed."
 * "was loaned to him" then?


 * No actor for Benji? Might be worthwhile linking Benji to the character article as he has a small section there.
 * He doesn't have an article.
 * Don't wikilink it then. If the other character names are followed by actor names then so should this one. Sanders11 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Added.


 * "After learning that Beverley Leslie (Leslie Jordan) and his "business associate" Benji have broken up, Karen plots to have Jack take Benji's place, after Jack confesses that Leslie offered to share his entire fortune with him" - After is used twice.


 * "Nearly twenty years later" - It's closer to fifteen years by my calculation, it's a bit redundant anyway as Lila and Ben going to college certainly implies the time frame. Also Lila and Ben have been introduced already so it's not necessary to explain who they are.


 * "as Will and Grace did in the 1980s" - needs a ref
 * ✅ Removed.


 * What do you mean by "living comfortably"?


 * The reference for "Unforgettable" no longer works, but take out the year it was from and I don't think a ref is needed.


 * The scenes being reminiscent of the pilot also requires a ref, and a statement of that nature would probably be more suited to the production section where the ending is mentioned.
 * ✅ Removed.

I will return to do the remain sections later. Sanders11 (talk) 13:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Production
 * WP:MOSIMAGES suggests that images should be placed with the eyes pointing towards the body of the article.


 * "The make-up effects in Grace's dream and the scenes twenty years into the future were done by make-up artists who have won Academy Awards. This includes make-up used to make the actors look older." - Second sentence seems unnecessary. Any idea of the makeup artists' names?
 * ✅ Don't know the names, unfortunately.


 * "The filming brought all the main actors together" - Were they apart? Some kind of fall out?
 * ✅ No. Removed.


 * "The cast and crew tried to remain happy, playing to the audience between takes as writers gathered in a room to rework lines for potentially larger laughs." - A bit too similar to the sentence in the article it comes from.


 * "However ... said Megan Mullally" reads weird because the name of the speaker appears at the end, but I presume that was for a bit of variety, so no biggy if you don't want to change it.
 * Yeah, that was done for a bit of variety.


 * "Messing took the door to Grace's office; she wanted to lean it up against the wall at her house as a "piece of modern art"." - should be referenced since there's a quote there, and it looks odd to reference the rest of the sentences in that paragraph.
 * ✅ Removed the quotation marks.


 * Again "took the news about the ending well" needs some clarification. If you have any information about why the show ended at that point, who decided it should end, that might fit in nicely, as I would have presumed that it ended as the actors no longer wanted to do the show. Maybe thats just me though.
 * ✅ I've tried to find this kind of information but I've found nothing.


 * "It's daring and ambitious and more far-reaching than most finales go. I think people will be quite surprised," McCormack said. - should also have a reference since its a quote.

Broadcast and reception
 * "The series finale was heavily promoted by NBC. McCormack, Messing, Mullally and Hayes appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show and The Today Show to bid farewell, on May 10 and May 18, respectively. NBC devoted a two-hour block in its primetime schedule on May 18, 2006, for the Will & Grace send-off. An hour-long series retrospective, "Say Goodnight Gracie", featuring interviews with the cast, crew, and guest stars, preceded the hour-long series finale." - None of this is in the reference provided.
 * I'll try to find the ref I got this from.


 * The reference says around 18 million viewers, not over 18 million viewers, but reference 9 gives a more accurate figure


 * "ranking number eight" - can't see this in the reference
 * ✅ Removed.


 * The Friends finale has an article on wiki that could be linked to
 * ✅ I was actually the one who brought that article to GA status... ;-)


 * That's quite a long quote from CHUD.com. I have no idea what screwing the pooch means, not sure if that can be linked to something. Also the main thing that stood out from that review for me was the praise for the actors' performances, and as there's nothing much in the reception about that, it might be worthwhile to add.


 * The Entertainment Weekly review seems just as mixed as the other reviews, you've just chosen to quote the negative part of the review. Maybe reorganise the section slightly and have the second part be along the lines of "Setting the finale in several different time periods was criticized. Someone from Some Publication said..." Or just lose the "less positive reviews" sentence if you prefer.


 * No broadcast or ratings info from other countries?
 * No. I looked for this while writing the article but I couldn't find anything.

References
 * Is there any way you can add the disc number to the DVD references?
 * ISBN number?

Placing the article on hold for the time being, until the above issues are addressed. Sanders11 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I've done a few tweaks and now deem this a good article :). Congratulations! Sanders11 (talk) 21:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for an excellent review! :)  The left orium  14:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)