Talk:The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face

True Songwriter
The songwriter who actually wrote the song "The Frist Time Ever I Saw Your Face", was not Ewan MacColl, but was Lance "Sandy" Sandberg. Mr. Sandberg, who was 14 at the time, wrote the song for the lead singer in his band--she fell for someone else. MCA purchased the rights to the song and royalties for it at a later date because Mr. Sandberg was a starving songwriter/musician. I am not privy to the covenants of these "sales", but a research of MCA's Archives should support this.

Labels, producers, A&R men, have a well documented history of ripping off songwriters Ref please. It is a sad state of affairs when other people take credit for the words, work, and music of others. Can you imagine what it must be like to have writting something so beautiful, then for the rest of your life never get the credit for it, and see others take credit? It is time that Dr. Sandberg be given his due.

Currently the songwriter, Dr. Lance Sandberg, PhD, teachs at St. Phillips College in San Antonio Texas. Gspellvin (talk) 17:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of sources that attribute the work to Ewan MacColl. It has appeared many times in song books with his name as the author. I heard an interview with Peggy Seeger on the radio and she was clearly under the impression that he wrote it for her. Colin Harper's book on hte British folk revival mentions it as a MacColl composition. If this is all wrong, you will need to provide some reliable sources to support the alternative authorship. Bluewave (talk) 17:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I find the above assertion remarkable. I am old enough to have known people who heard McColl sing the song and assert his authorship of it (he would never say he "wrote" a song, but that he "made" it). What's more, I have heard the same from Peggy Seeger - one would think that she ought to know. In the 1960s UK folk scene I heard the song frequently. It was widely known (and loved) as one of McColl's songs before it was recorded by any commercial recording company, and certainly before anybody in the USA had ever heard of it (including, I venture to suggest, Dr. Sandberg). Actually, I may be wrong about that: I believe I recall Paul Simon being in a folk club when the song was performed, but I would not want anybody to place too much faith in a vague memory; in particular the event might have been later, in the 1970s.AndrewArrowsmith

Celine
Uh, this not an article about Celine Dion. She may have performed a notable cover version worthy of mention but so did many others. I think the infobox should contain Roberta Flack's charted version. Cricket02 02:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Couldn't agree more. Surely it was the Roberta Flack version that made the song famous, since it was used in Play Misty For Me and hit #1 in the US.  Any versions after this are noteworthy but less so, surely?--81.132.190.18 20:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems that the writer and singer of the original version, Ewan McCall and Peggy Seeger have been pushed into the sidelines by Celine Dion. Dion's version is marginal at best; Roberta Flack's is the version that most people will be familiar with. This article really should be rewritten to reflect this fact.Liquidmonkey 09:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Just reverted User Max24 who put Celine to the top and everyone else to the bottom.  I started an infox for the original Roberta Flack version - need help to complete.  Also made a list in alpha order of ALL notable cover versions in all fairness.  To Max24, if you want Celine to stand out so badly for this single,  I suggest you put it to a separate article.  And if this dominance keeps up, I suspect CONSENSUS here may just boot her out altogether, other than the mention of her name along with ALL other notable cover versions.  Cricket02 14:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I expanded the Roberta Flack section to balance out the article a bit. One might consider deleting the non-notable Celine Dion version... but it probably wouldn't make a difference. The fanboys would just add it back again. Volatile 03:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I stumbled upon this page (from the Donny Hathaway bio) and just wanted to add my 2 cents that a Celine Dion reference is out of place. She should be listed, surely, as one of many performers of the track but I don't see any reason why the article should be expanded beyond that. Larswiki
 * Holy smokes this ISN'T a Celine Dion song and if she gets a huge section of the article then we need a huge bit for the "Canon" Roberta Flack version and bit for all the other covers. Can't someone (that'll be me but I don't want a possible vandalism tag) just edit the Celine thing down to a line or two? VonBlade 21:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. Not confident enough in my Wikipedia-editing skills to resolve this sensitively - but the C Dion emphasis in this article is absurd. Millichip 13:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Now this is getting silly. If the definitive (ok, an opinion word, but meh) version gets a small mention, why on earth is Celine still getting half the article? Shall we have three paragraph dissertations upon all the versions? Even worse, if such a thing is possible, do we need THREE CD covers of Celines version? Two of which are the same but for a red border. This is madness. It's not WikiAdvertising. VonBlade (talk) 23:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Celine Dion text has been moved to The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face (Celine Dion version) per consensus in this section and below. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 12:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. Much better. VonBlade (talk) 15:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This song has recently (27 Sep 2008) featured on UK TV's X Factor, so I would expect some hits to this page from people, like me, who remember it fondly and fancy finding out who wrote it, who did sing the version on Play Misty for Me and so on. All that is handled in the first section. It is absurd fan-cruft that more than half the article is then devoted to an obscure (no 19 in the UK) cover by one artist among dozens. Now I actually rather like Celine - she's a fine singer and I'm sure she does the song justice, but I'm also sure she would be completely embarassed to find that obsessive fans had hi-jacked a page about song she didn't write and had only recorded in passing. So, for Celine's sake, I'm removing the cruft. --Oscar Bravo (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear... User:Max24 has put all the Celine stuff back in. Why do you do this Max? I'm sure that Celine herself would prefer it if she were measured by the songs for which she was the original artist - she's probably forgotten she ever recorded this... --Oscar Bravo (talk) 09:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This discussion indicates consensus. I'm reverting the Dion nonsense and will watch the page. Sensei48 (talk) 17:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Also - Celine Dion's version of this song was given undue prominence in this article. It has absolutely no significance in terms of the notability or history of the song and is simply one of hundreds of cover versions. According to the Wikipedia discog on Dion's singles, it charted nowhere except the UK, where it reached #19. Including it in this fashion in an article on the song acts as a promotion for Dion's version, not as a significant addition to the history or understanding of the song itself. There is no justification for emphasizing/promoting Dion's version in this article (other than fanboy preferences).Sensei48 (talk) 17:11, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Beware: Edits by Max24 bordering vandalism

 * Note that I left in my last revert...Max24 - Notable cover versions were in this place long before and consensus dictates that it stays. If you keep moving it, vandalism will be claimed.  Cricket02 02:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Other Versions
I noticed a brief mention of other versions and a section for Celine Dion (and the discussion about that above). Maybe instead of a section set aside for her like that, we could have a listing of other cover versions (with the artist / label / year / etc) as links to other pages? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.231.133.189 (talk) 06:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Good idea. Maybe you can have a go at it?  Cricket02 14:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Roberta Flack.jpg
Image:Roberta Flack.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Pop song
Clearly it IS a pop song, but did MacColl WRITE it as one, or did he think he had written a folk song. I was under the impression that he had a very low opinion of pop music.A Geek Tragedy 18:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a folk song (or so he intended).  And I agree with those above, the Celine Dion spam on this article is very annoying, I'm going to put it in a separate article.  Merkinsmum  13:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 15:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wife/not wife
This article says Peggy Seeger was his wife at the time. The Ewan MacColl article says he was married to Jean Newlove when he wrote the song. ??? AMCKen (talk) 19:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)AMCKen

Cover versions
Is "cover versions" the appropriate term here? The implication is that Flack's version is definitive, and all the others are covers. However, the original is MacColl's and surely Flack's version is as much a cover as any of the others. Some of the "covers" were were recorded years before Flack recorded her version. Should this say something like "other recorded versions", rather than "cover versions"? Bluewave (talk) 19:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Late to the game - but yes and done.Sensei48 (talk) 18:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Original lyrics
I have heard the first line of third verse sung as 'The first time ever I lay with you' and 'The first time ever I held you near.' Do we know which is the original? It was written at a time when censorship about sexual content was common. Rosemary Clarke 172.83.168.29 (talk) 08:09, 6 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The former is MacColl's original and the one nearly universally sung. The only rendition that I have ever heard that uses the latter was that of The Kingston Trio, which feared that the explicitness of the real lyric by MacColl might damage their PG image and subsequently changed it. Sensei48 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Interpretation of three types of love
A thing I love about this song is that it lends itself to be interpreted as if the narrator experiences 3 types of love through different stages of life: love for a parent, romantic love, and love for a child
 * • In verse 1 the narrator reflects on the first thing they ever saw, Mom's face. The mother would have seemed like a goddess giving the gift of life, and with it, a universe of gifts like the sun, the moon, and the stars.
 * • In verse 2 the narrator advances the story by focusing on a romantic lover, reflecting on a first passionate kiss as part of physical bonding. The verse offers imagery of the narrator as a now-expectant mother, putting her hand on her round belly and feeling "it move in my hand", bringing awareness of a delicate heartbeat inside her "like the trembling heart of a captive bird". The heartbeat was there at her "command" as if the mother-to-be is essentially becoming as a goddess, giving life to a future newborn in the cycle of life.


 * • In verse 3 the narrator now turns to her child, reflecting back to the first time every she lay with the child. For them it was at the time of birth when the child had been laid by the narrator's side in a maternity bed as a new mother. At that time their heartbeats were even closer than before. The parent speaks of a parental love for the child that would last until the end of time.
 * • The narrator repeats the words about the end of time, foreshadowing a final stage in life, a time of final goodbyes, where the words would be repeated in promise and comfort that their relationship "… would last 'til the end of time, my love".

The song ends by echoing three distinct references to "Your face", "Your face", "Your face" distinctly honoring each of the faces of 3 different types of love. This type of independent interpretation can be generalized to include love for or by a father, but offers more direct references to a mother's experience. It's just an unofficial interpretation, but might offer clues as to who, if any, of the alleged authors wrote the lyrics. 2601:681:5B00:45E0:5420:D991:3915:7001 (talk) 21:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)