Talk:The Garden of Earthly Delights/Archive 1

Black and White
In the lower-right corner of the center panel, there is a naked European man standing next to a naked African man, with his arm around him. Was Bosch trying to imply something with this? Captain Jackson 17:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Bosch has one strange mind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.109.226.80 (talk • contribs).


 * This seems like a very one-sided discussion of the piece. Why no mention of the Fraenger thesis? Twospoonfuls 12:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The what thesis?--Angel David (talk) 22:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Possibly another self-portrait
Besides the alleged self-portrait in the Hell pannel, what do you think about the man pointing to a woman in the lower-right corner in the garden itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.19.149.10 (talk • contribs)

Good point-- 00:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The Garden of Earthly Delights in NOT SO popular culture
If mentions of depictions of this painting in POPULAR CULTURE is repeatedly deleted why keep this headline at all?- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.192.163 (talk • contribs)

What about this


This has the whole trypritch. So why not add this...I think I'll add it.-- 01:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The Middle Pannel
The middle pannel is said to be a warning about lustfullness. But considering that the exterior triptych wings, when closed, ressemble the world, and the Psalm 33:9 of the Bible,: "For he spake and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast." is shown at the top,it might be that Hieronymus Bosch meant that the world was painted inside. This brings two ideas; the first one being, of course, that the left wing is Paradaise, the center Earth, and the right wing Hell.

The second idea is that the painting inside represents the world inside the World. That is, the exterior pannels represent the Earth as it is; but inside, Heaven (or Paradaise), Hell, and a third world are represented. Given the lustfull innocence and delightful yet grotesque atmosphera of this middle pannel, perhaps Bosch was painting the Faerie World. Lilithe (talk) 20:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Lilithe

representations
There are many different sources with analysis and discussions about the imgery contained within the picture - how come this isn't on the page? Crescent (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I came here wondering what much of the imagery represented and I was disappointed to find little explanation. Someone who knows more about this painting should add that information.Danny (talk) 16:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Stuff on this complicated subject is in the Silver externaL link. Johnbod (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Altarpiece
I have softened the refs to this, as Harbison is pretty sure it was not an altarpiece as such. Another point - does Snyder confirm the tapestry was Flemish? And do we know if the outer wings are the same pieces of wood, painted on both sides? Johnbod (talk) 01:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Peer review
Hey all, I've been trying to tighten up the article a bit incorporating some of the suggestions made at the peer review. Please let me know if any of the changes I've made are problematic... I could use a little input of the "perils of life" alluded to at the close of the lead. These are spiritual perils, I assume, as opposed to having a brick fall on your head or something, so I've tweaked it a bit to reflect that. Again, let me know if the emphasis is wrong. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

De Siguenza
According to the one of my sources, "Friar Jose de Siguenza wrote the first extensive interpretation of Bosch, in his 1605 History of the Order of Saint Jerome, (in Hieronymous Bosch: The Garden of Earthly Delights by Jacqueline and Maurice Gillard, NY 1989). Many of our library's Bosch sources are checked out (I have a couple on recall), so is this covered in any of the other literature? Kafka Liz (talk) 01:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have it in Cinotti. It calls him Brother, does not name his work, but mentions that he described it as the "strawberry painting", which I did add. –Outriggr § 01:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it might be worth adding a sentence or two on this. The title seems to vary from translation to translation; I'll see what I can find. Apparently, he argues against the perceived hersy of the painting and was quite the Bosch fanboy. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Provenence
I think this is now much too far down - it contains the stuff on the dating & possible purposes of the painting. If not where it was before, I think it should come after the description at least. Johnbod (talk) 23:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Moved. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Interpretation
The de Tolnay quote in the first paragraph appears to be a fragment. I don't currently have this book; can someone who does look into it? Kafka Liz (talk) 01:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Another fragment: The Burgundian aristocracy, especially those influenced by the humanist movement, were the most likely collectors of Bosch’s paintings, but there are few records of the location of his works in the years immediately following his death.[44] Ceoil (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you sure about this one? It looks okay to me. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its unexpained and out of context. The Burgundian's are not mentioned again, as far as I can see. I dont want it deleted but I'd like to see it developed. Ceoil (talk) 00:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Not what I understood by "fragment". The De Tolnay quote seems to be missing its end. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Netherlandish might be better at this date, as Burgundy was divided and turning into the Seventeen Provinces. The Nassaus were Burgundian/Netherlandish. Johnbod (talk) 00:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

De Tolnay again... I have a copy of the book now, but the citation seems to indicate that he is being quoted via Hieronymus Bosch (Grange Books, 2005). Can anyone tell me where in his book this quotation comes from? Kafka Liz (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Legacy section
I think a discussion of Pieter Brueghel the Elder, Surrealism, Joan Miró, Salvador Dali, Pavel Tchelitchew, dream imagery, Dante etc. can be added. Clearly the influence on 20th century art is an important legacy of the Bosch. Modernist (talk) 11:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Haven't found a good source yet, Modernist. Anything you could recommend? Ceoil (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm looking too. Painters of Fantasy: From Hieronymus Bosch to Salvador Dali by William Gaunt, Publisher:London : Phaidon, 1974. - and this link look promising. Modernist (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Painters of Fantasy seems to be primarily a gathering of reproductions, I think. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm finding nothing on influence, even in 20c books dedicated to the work. So I'll leave the Bruegel here, for now. Maybe Bosch is similar to Bacon; too individual to be imitated. Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've found an article on Bosch and Miró, but that's it. I just spent nearly two hours in my library going through indices of books on the grotesque, (since some thoughtful soul has removed ALL the English-language books on Bosch except the three I have) and came up with next to nothing. I have a few other avenues I could try, though. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've leaned on a few friends with JSTOR access, trawled the city and University libraries, and gone through 11 google bosch + garden + influence pages, and nothing. Ceoil (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should do the original research, publish a paper, make history and reference ourselves. He clearly precedes Di Chirico, Jung, Surrealism, Dali, Magritte, dream imagery, and Hollywood by 400 years or more. There are individual mentions in various biographies acknowledging how Bosch or The Garden of Earthly Delights influenced Duchamp, etc. If there aren't any other books, I'll try to find the one I mentioned the other day - Painters of Fantasy: From Hieronymus Bosch to Salvador Dali by William Gaunt. This book looks interesting too - Surrealism and the Sacred: Power, Eros and the Occult in Modern Art - by Celia Rabinovitch. Also these articles might help us find the literature: Giuseppe Arcimboldo and Fantastic art....Modernist (talk) 01:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hollywood? Ceoil (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, perhaps I have seen a movie of that center panel... Kafka Liz (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * And that was some movie! Modernist (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

See, I think the problem is that I've been going at this backward, by looking in and for books about Bosch. You're absolutely right, Modernist. The problem is that my familiarity with 20th century art is so sketchy. I'll look into the artists and movements you've mentioned. Are there any more movements that you can think of, besides Surrealism? I think a good survey of such might be help us more than dozens of studies on individual artists. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Liz, I wish I had a more extensive library - Besides 20th century Surrealism, and especially Salvador Dali, Rene Magritte, Giorgio De Chirico and Joan Miro, and the somewhat obscure Russian Pavel Tchelitchew, there is Latin American Magic realism including Frida Kahlo, and a number of writers, the late 19th century Symbolists, notably Gustave Moreau, Odilon Redon, Max Klinger, Gustave Doré, Arnold Böcklin; and earlier figures: Henry Fuseli, and William Blake. The rubric Fantastic art is helpful too. Pieter Brueghel the Elder, and Giuseppe Arcimboldo have been mentioned by many authors especially Breughel who Silver discusses. I am also beginning to think that Dante might have been an influence on Bosch. Modernist (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm cut off from my library this weekend, but I'll try again on Tuesday. I personally only have Nadeau's History of Surrealism, which contained nothing helpful. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Dante was an influence, I remember coming accross that when going through the sources but can't remember where. Frick. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Are any video games based on the painting...! Ceoil (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 *  Kafka Liz (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)



Putting this Dürer here for now. Can't remember where I found the connection discussed. Anyone know? Ceoil (talk) 01:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I read somewhere - fairly recently - of Durer as an influence on Bosch. I don't remember where though, but in the last few days as I've been looking for more recent references of his influence on 20th century art..Modernist (talk) 10:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Koldeweij
Does anybody have a copy of this book. I can't remember who added the source, but page numbers would be handy ;) Ceoil (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. –Outriggr § 23:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Tree-man
Truth is - I miss this picture, I think it's important..Modernist (talk) 13:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I missed when this was removed. What was the rationale? Kafka Liz (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I took it out as there were to many images vs text and were giving the page a squashed feel. I have more to add on this section, and I'll put it back after I'm done. Ceoil (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually Ceoil I replaced it a few minutes ago..(sorry about that), but adding text will definitely help the proportions. The image is so famous, that the article seemed lacking without it. Modernist (talk) 18:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Grand. Ceoil (talk) 21:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

dendrochronology
I don't know what the source says, but dendrochronology can only give you a "terminus ante quem date, as an unknown number of the newest rings are always trimmed with the bark. After felling and cutting there was then a seasoning period of some years, with ten or more apparently not uncommon. So a lag of 30 years from the last identified ring and the date of the painting would not be exceptional, though on the long side.  Johnbod (talk) 03:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's a terminus post quem, no? ;) The text is pretty clear that the wood is substantially older than the painting itself - I didn't realise that the sentence made it sounds as though that were the source of the uncertainty: that's certainly not what I intended! Thank you for pointing this out. Sometimes when you're writing know so clearly what you mean that you don't actually write it with sufficient clarity. Kafka Liz (talk) 10:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In terms of post dating Columbus - isn't the fact of the portrayal of the earth as a sphere on the exterior of the painting indicative of the world being round. Or is the story of Columbus proving the world wasn't flat just an urban myth? Modernist (talk) 11:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a widespread fallacy that medieval people still believed the world was flat. Educated people, at least, had known otherwise since Classical antiquity. The most convenient summary can be found here (yeah, I know...) Kafka Liz (talk) 11:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Aha..(so why was I...) Modernist (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Legacy 2
I found this interesting link:. The auther states Andre Breton cites Bosch as an early example of Surrealism in his first Surrealist Manifesto. Probably worth finding...Modernist (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Having just re-read the Manifesto, unfortunately Breton doesn't specifically mention Bosch...Modernist (talk) 12:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Another possible ref: The following is a passage from Clark's Civilisation, which though not specific in reference to the Garden, is surely suggested in the right-hand panel, and might be of use in either the 'Sources' or proposed 'Legacy' section. Any suggestions for weaving this into the fabric of the article? JNW (talk) 00:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ...painters had for long used iron foundries to heighten the imaginative impact of their work with what we call a romantic effect; and they had introduced them into pictures as symbolising the mouth of hell. The first to do so (as far as I know) was Hieronymus Bosch in about 1485. He came from a region of the Low Countries which was one of the first parts of Europe to be industrialised, and as a child the blast of iron foundries must have added a real image to the imaginary horrors that filled his mind. Bosch was much admired in Venice, and in the work of Giorgione and his followers---the first self-conscious Romantics---the iron foundry appears as the mouth of the pagan underworld. Clark, Kenneth, Civilisation, page 324. Harper & Row, New York. 1969.
 * This Bosch and Bruegel: Inventions, Enigmas and Variations little exhibition at the National Gallery London may help. I can certainly add on Bosch's influence on Bruegel - in his early days he did works passed off as Boschs by Hieronymus Cock, but perhaps that should go on the biography. Dull Gret is one of his most Boschian large works, with several motifs from here. Johnbod (talk) 00:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd Suggest we move this to a work space. Started a scratch pad here. Can ye add with bullet points, notes, paragraphs, whatever, and maybe we can put together something that can be tfr'd to mainspace under FAC glare (!) "Inventions, Enigmas and Variations" is a breakthrough with this, thanks Johnbod. Ceoil (talk) 00:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)