Talk:The Glass Bead Game

Mathematics, Music, Symbols
From Hesse:

"Throughout its history the Game was closely allied with music, and usually proceeded according to musical or mathematical rules. One theme, two themes, or three themes were elaborated, varied and underwent a development quite similar to that of the theme in a Bach fugue...."

"... a language of symbols... so that it became possible to... reduce mathematics and music to a common denominator, as it were."

A combination of mathematics, music, and symbols may be found in Timothy A. Smith's analysis of a Bach fugue-- available as a Shockwave movie or as an essay. Related symbols may be found at the Kaleidoscope Puzzle.

These links seem closely enough related to the Bead Game to be incorporated in the article, so I have added them. Cullinane 07:44, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Mornington Crecent
What's Mornington Crescent got to do with The Glass Bead Game? Apart from that it's got "game" in the title?

Was the Glass Bead Game a 'game' in the usual sense? Wasn't it more of 'Meta' Art-Form which was performed?

Perhaps the confusion comes from the German 'Spiel', which can mean play a game or to play an instrument. Given that music pours out of the pages of the Novel, I'd say it was more the latter.

Which makes Mornington Crescent feel even more out of place.

Elchoco 20:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just checked the Mornington Crescent Wiki entry and there's even a reference to Glass Bead Game from there! I guess the only possible connection is that the rules to both are unknown. If we're linking to things that have arcane rules then we might as well add "selection critieria for the new years honours list" and "airline ticket pricing". Elchoco 21:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that 'The Glass Bead Game' is a reference to the Hindu myth of Indra's Net? -- ChrisL —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Attempts to create a real-life Glass Bead Game
I feel that this should be perhaps moved to its own page. This article should focus only on the book and literary criticism of it.


 * Loyola 11:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

See PangaiaProject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.133.241 (talk) 02:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

translations?
It would be nice to have a comparison of available translations. 75.62.7.22 03:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a comparison of translations would be really helpful. What about a comparison of various editions in general? I have not found a review online that does this. Joevans3 17:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Generally this sort of idea appeals to me. In fact, I've spent countless happy hours doing this myself for other books. Here are some factors in regard to Wikipedia:

1) Is there anything worthy about a translation? If it's a poor translation, without any real strengths, then it's going to be less interesting. There *are* interesting mistakes in translating, for example, The Bible, especially because some of those mistakes have entered our culture. (E.g., "Faith, hope and charity" vs. "Faith, hope and love".)

2) A major aspect of what I've written comparing translations winds up being Original Research. It's almost unavoidable, because one needs to make (unsupported) value judgments about whether a word or phrase is more appropriate than another, and which senses the reader is liable to perceive. I just wrote an article which in passing, compared two published versions of Lewis Carroll's A Tangled Tale. I had the greatest difficulty not adding "Original Research", because there's an important (and what appears to me to be) obvious conclusion about a change that was made. Instead, I just reported the facts, and left the Wiki reader to see any pattern for themselves. I suspect some, not being familiar with the material won't see the importance — so no one wins — except the Wiki community is spared the chance my speculations are unwarranted.

3) Too much detail. Probably there are hundreds of differences between Hesse translations. They couldn't all be put into the Wiki article. Yet synopsizing them would definitely be Original Research (unless one could find a published source). In the case of The Glass Bead Game there are such, at least, doesn't the English introduction make some observations about the earlier English translation?

4) What would be interesting, and not Original Research, would be to identify German phrases that have not been successfully translated. Then a straight dictionary comparison between the German meaning and what is printed in English could be made. Since my German is close to nil, I'd actually appreciate it if someone did this — at least in a handful of important cases.

Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am currently reading it in English although German is my first language. I have worked as a journalist and translator (certificate from a private secretarial school, not university). What you are talking about is extremely involved, starting with the purchase of several English language editions. This is so involved that it can only be undertaken as a project by translation students at a university, but being retired I don't know which universities offer translation degrees of this kind, advanced, these days. 58.174.224.3 (talk) 07:04, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Re: (4) above: No, it would not be interesting to list "German phrases that have not been successfully translated". The underlying idea that phrases have equivalents in different languages (any more than words do) is false. All that can be translated is whole texts. Even the notes in the present article that "Knecht" means servant and is cognate with knight are false. That is, of course they are true, but they deliver pseudo-knowledge: the english-speaking reader doesn't know from them that "Knecht" in the 20th c. has connotations of farming, of feudalism, of oppression and revolutionary rhetoric; nor what to make of the purely etymological relation to knight.


 * What would be useful is a simple list of the published translations, with (if someone is willing to research it) a comment on the style or reception of each. More would be less! Wegesrand (talk) 12:41, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Magister Ludi
The article mentions, "At any given time, the member of the order deemed the best Game player is honored with the title Magister Ludi." Can someone provide a quote from the book supporting this? I know Knecht was an important player, but obviously the position seems like one which necessitates a person committed not only to the Game but also to duties related to preservation of The Order. Do they simply give away the title to anyone who is savant? --1000Faces (talk) 04:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's not quite right - the position of Magister isn't a sort of honorarium. Rather, it's a highly official position that amounts to a full time job for Knecht, where he's essentially responsible for giving seminars on the game, educating elite students, etc. Thus, there is only one Magister Ludi. Consider this quote from the general introduction (p. 42 of my edition) - it applies to the development of the glass bead game in general, but also in this case to Castilia:
 * "The game had been played freely by individuals... before it acquired the status of a public institution. [...] In each country a Game Commission and a supreme head of the Game, bearing the title of Ludi Magister, were established. Official matches, played under the personal direction of the Magister, were exalted into cultural festivals. [...] Among the duties of the Magister, in addition to conducting the public Games, was supervision of the players and the schools of the Game. Above all, however, the Magister had to keep strict watch over the futher elaboration of the game."
 * This is in line with the idea that castilian culture is not at all individualistic. (Sorry if I have botched the use of this talk page somehow. I'm new and not quite sure how it works yet.) --Ruff ilb (talk) 05:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ruff ilb's comments (which have not been reflected, most of a year later, in the article) ring true for me, for other reasons. According to the etymology of "ludicrous", ludus is Latin for play or sport; i hope no one will doubt Ludi is its Latin plural. ("Prelude" should suggest that ludus has at least the secondary sense of "play; stage production".) I assume that Hesse intended to evoke Ludi Magister (lit. "[relative to the] games, [the] master") or Magister Ludi (lit. "Master of Games"), cf. Master of the Revels, with the 2nd sent of Master of the Revels using the word "ludi" to refer to the plays to which "Revels" refers. Thus, even tho Knecht is presumably a master of the glass-bead game, Hesse must, in the absence of contrary evidence, have intended "Magister Ludi" to evoke titles like "Master of the Games", an official overseeing the playings of the game. This would have been clearer than it is to us, to his audience, for which Latin was (in the '30s) still one of the marks of an educated European; the more so to Hess himself, educated still earlier (around 1900) and (tho presumably Protestant) living in parts of Germany with a strong Catholic tradition (and thus awareness of Latin): Swabia as a whole, but more especially Konstanz (district), whose earlier history as a (Catholic) prince-bishopric is covered briefly in the German, but not in the English, article. --Jerzy•t 00:49, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Tightening up the plot
In an attempt to tighten up the plot, as was needed, I needed to trim down the article. All of the important points removed have been logged below. Feel free to excavate them from this boneyard and place them into the article if needed, preferably in new sections and not back into bloating the plot. --1000Faces (talk) 05:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

BONEYARD


 * towards the 20th century, terming it the Age of the Feuilleton, an intellectually superficial and decadent period when middlebrow journalism replaced serious reading and reflection.


 * a period which "began approximately with the so-called First World War" and during which "most men of mind did not stand up under the pressures of that violent age", instead using their intellects in service of the rulers of the period.


 * Polarities lie at the heart of the work, as is commonly the case in Hesse's novels. Two relationships are of particular interest, that of Knecht with a friend and mentor who he meets on a diplomatic mission to the Catholic monastery of Mariafels, the learned monk Father Jacobus, and with his best friend at the boarding school run by the order, Plinio Designori, the scion of a rich family. At the end of their school days, Knecht, representing asceticism and the Life of the Mind, joins the order, while Designori returns to the world. He embodies a failed reconciliation between mind and world.


 * In his introduction to Hesse's novel Demian (1919), Thomas Mann likened his relation with Hesse to that of Knecht and Jacobus, adding that their knowledge of each other was not possible without much ceremony. Mann extrapolates on Hesse's observance of Oriental customs in the novel. The Glass Bead Game manifests Hesse's enduring dream of combining East with West. For example, the discipline of the imaginary monastic community includes breathing and meditation techniques of clear Oriental inspiration.


 * Hesse also makes an existentialist point: faced with a dilemma, Knecht opts for the world and not the ivory tower.
 * It seems, tragically, that living in Castalia made Knecht unfit for life in the world.

Hesse's Glass Bead Game
I added NOR tag to this section. The last paragraph in particular seems OR. Dlabtot (talk) 22:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I removed a line in the last para:


 * "Douglas Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach, even though it does not mention Hesse's novel, is an intellectual exercise very much in the spirit of the Game."


 * 1) Excepting the first para, and the long quote, the section seems very much OR. (The 211 word quote is overlong, from a site that is explicitly copyrighted: http://www.sfhreview.com/workingpapers/?p=1 )


 * 2) Looking through the index, Hofstader mentions scores of people from Shakespeare to Bertrand Russell with no mention of Hesse or The Glass Bead Game.


 * 3) The Glass Bead Game is distinctly original fiction, with spiritual overtones, while GEB is illustrated, largely non-fiction, mass market, drawing significantly on the work of others.


 * 4) Goggle hits on "godel escher bach" and "glass bead game" number 500: among them many were reading lists, not implying any special commonality of subject.


 * 5) The phrase "intellectual exercise very much in the spirit" is peacock language. WP:PEACOCK


 * Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 07:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * While I concede that the sentence quoted above may be inappropriate for Wikipedia, simply because it is an editorial remark, I, as an admirer of both books, also happen to agree with that remark. That GEB is silent about Hesse's Glass Bead Game is regrettable. If there is a living Renaissance man whose writings exemplify well the spirit of the Glass Bead Game, it is Douglas Hofstadter. He was educated in physics and has taught in computer science departments. His GEB draws on molecular genetics as well as on the fields of the three persons named in its title. GEB reminds me of E M Forster's aphorism "Always connect." As for others cut from a similar polymathic cloth, I nominate Jorge Luis Borges, Umberto Eco, Freeman Dyson, and Anthony Burgess.


 * When I was a student a generation ago, many read Hesse because of his pacifism and his fascination with Eastern mysticism. I fear he has fallen out of favour with today's young, and I never see him mentioned in the New York Review of Books.123.255.61.247 (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Article needs some description of the Glass Bead Game itself
Conspicuously missing from this article is any mention of the actual nature of the Glass Bead Game, which is the title of the book, this article, and the central concern of Castalian scholars and the protagonist Joseph Knecht. This seems to have been removed by User:RepublicanJacobite on 29 September 2008, with the note "unreferenced OR". Could someone please construct or reconstruct such a section, of course free from OR and properly referenced? Thanks. --201.37.230.43 (talk) 02:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Although the book is called the Glass Bead Game, the game itself is a construct by Hesse that allows for multiple interpretations, and is designed to inspire many symbolic ideas. The game is linked to the minds ability to transform ideas into different symbols, or different meanings. Hesse has a commentary that I should quote where he describes the absolutism of fascist ideals and contrasts this with a culture of complex but balanced philosophy. Sorry, must look it up.Ern Malleyscrub (talk) 15:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Conspicuous because the book always talks around the actual nature of the Game. Mdw0 (talk) 07:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/hhesse.htm not WP:RS
This does not meet our reliable source guidelines, so it really can't be used as a reference. So I will remove it. However, that webpage cites sources and the new wording is much improved. Dlabtot (talk) 02:30, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In what way does it not meet the requirements? Ed Fitzgerald t / c 02:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not in the habit of rising to the challenge when I'm asked to prove a negative. But it looks like just some website, not a published source with a reputation for fact-checking and reliability. However, since it's mostly in a language I don't understand, I certainly could be wrong. Perhaps it would be more helpful if you were to say why you believe it does meet our RS guideline. We could also post the question on WP:RSN. Dlabtot (talk) 02:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, who cares? The statement I originally believed needed a citation, no longer appears in the article. I think the current wording is fine without a citation. Dlabtot (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Edit-warring is inappropriate. It is called the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle, not the Bold, Revert, Revert cycle. Dlabtot (talk) 03:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The material on the website is written by a librarian in Finland, and the site is, in fact, copyrighted by the municipal library. Please see this article for additional information. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 03:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Props
Just wanted to say I've navigated a lot of Wiki pages, and think this one particularly good for what it can and should be. ~Paul V. Keller 17:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Interpretation of boarding school plot
There is a parenthetical in this article that states that the book being a story about running boarding schools makes it an "exploration of education and the life of mind". I admit that I haven't read the book, and the person who added it is probably in good faith. but this article is about a novel, and it seems to me that interpretations like this belong in book reviews, not encyclopedias. Exabyte (talk) 19:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should read the book if you wish to participate in editing an encyclopedia article about it. Just a thought.  Dlabtot (talk) 19:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed it because it is an example of extremely poor writing. However, User:Exabyte's point is another good reason to remove the text, and User:Dlabtot's dismissive reply is inappropriate. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 19:23, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's hardly inappropriate to advise editors to become conversant with the subjects of the articles they are attempting to edit. And the idea that encyclopedia articles should not include interpretations of their subjects is just completely wrong. However, material should be verifiable, so the lack of a citation would be a valid reason to remove the text. Dlabtot (talk) 19:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What is it about my comments that you find 'odd'? Dlabtot (talk) 19:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it odd that you reverted my edit, then gave a valid reason for the edit on the talk page, but appeared not to intend to make the edit for which you had just argued. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 20:36, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I do disagree with your edit, as the material you removed was not imho, 'poor writing', and also conveyed an important point about the book. But it is pretty much a no-brainer that all content needs to be verifiable. But as per previous comment below, I think the article in its present form is lacking in more in-depth analysis of the novel, as it consists primarily of a plot summary. Dlabtot (talk) 21:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Since the book is indeed an exploration of the life of the mind, and to a lesser extent, education, I'm sure sources can be found in support. I will look for such... actually the section "As Utopian literature" should probably be reworked into a more general discussion of the themes of the book according to sources. Dlabtot (talk) 20:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Categories: Sci fi or speculative fiction?
I've noticed that the subject of this article has been categorized as Science Fiction. I could see it being Speculative Fiction or even Philosophical Fiction but how is it justifiable to call it Sci Fi? Trilobitealive (talk) 05:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not much into labeling but it seems to me that all three of those would fit. Dlabtot (talk) 06:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Science Fiction doesn't really fit. Reyk  YO!  07:26, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it's about a far future civilization and imagined ways of thinking, extrapolated from the present. How is that not science fiction? Dlabtot (talk) 08:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, science fiction is a difficult thing to define. There's probably as many definitions as there are science fiction readers. Some would no doubt argue that the almost complete absence of science in this novel would exclude it. I would need to see a reliable source describing it as a science fiction novel before I would be comfortable with Wikipedia calling it one. Reyk  YO!  08:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * These type of discussions are, in my opinion, a complete waste of time. So although it's obviously science fiction, if you want to remove the category I will not object. Dlabtot (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. Reyk  YO!  09:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I might as well try to convince someone that water is wet. Dlabtot (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to dissuade you from your opinion, though I hold to the contrary. But I would like to wonder a moment about how broad can a category be before it reaches the point of being overly inclusive? And what distinguishes sci fi from other genres of speculation? I consider Shakespeare's The Tempest, Swift's Gulliver's Travels and Dante's Inferno either speculation or one of its other sub-genres. And I think of Well's The Time Machine, Smith's The Game of Rat and Dragon and Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey as being more sci fi than not. I think that the differential is whether the respective stories' plots require a scientific/technological mechanism to work as a story. It appears to me that Hesse was actually writing a baroque society like that of ancient India or China; he chose the convenience of an unknown future merely to avoid having to make characters non-Germanic in their folkways and trappings.Trilobitealive (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

bad English
"As a student, another meaningful friendship develops" The appositive phrase "as a student" in this syntax refers to the friendship. Fix it. 4.249.72.95 (talk) 21:11, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the meaning clear the way it is, but you're welcome to change it yourself. Reyk  YO!  21:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

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