Talk:The Grand Old Duke of York

Taken from my own knowledge, but dates and battle scenes pinpointed by The Oxford Companion to British History (Ed by John Cannon, 2002)

Simon

Wakefield suggests that the rhythm refers to a much older battle in 1460 at Wakefield, where Richard, Duke of York (father of Edward IV of England was defeated. Anyone know which is right? Timrollpickering 00:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * An anon has added that Richard, Duke of York is the same Richard of York as in the rainbow mnemonic, ROYGBIV ("Richard of York gave battle in vain"). I must admit that I had thought that ROYGIV referred to Richard III, but I can see that the other Richard of York is also a possibility.  Can anyone help sort this out?  -- ALoan (Talk) 15:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Additional lyrics
Can't claim a source, however we've learned this to be the second verse of the song:

''He marched them to the left.

''He marched them to the right.

''And then he marched them upside down,

Oh what a funny sight!

theeverlastingblogspot.com adds from her childhood

''The Grand Old Duke of York

Then had five hundred men

He marched them in and out of the woods

And he marched them in again

And some turned to the left

And some turned to the right

And some marched all about the woods

'Till day turned into night

The Grand Old Duke of York

His men were half asleep

He marched them through a river but The river was too deep

And some of them did sink

And some of them did swim

And some did soundly shake his hand

And bid farewell to him

The Grand Old Duke of York

Had only twenty men

Fifteen marching through a farm

Were chased off by a hen

And two were lost in a barn

And two were lost in a sty

And the only soldier that was left

Ran off and waved good-bye!

The Grand Old Duke of York

He found himself alone

He sat right down on top of a drum

And there did weep and moan

And first he shed his sword

And then he shed his gun

And then he wished that all his travels

Never had begun

The Grand Old Duke of York

He heard a bugle sound

As he buckled on his sword and gun

His heart began to pound

He saw them in rows of five

He saw them in rows of ten

And they all lined up in front of him

'Till he had ten thousand men'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmeraldQueen001 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

These extra verses would have been added much later --Dr zoidberg590 (talk) 23:49, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Tune of TGODOY and AHWWG
Until recently, this article said "It is sung to the tune of "A-Hunting We Will Go". Somebody removed this about 6 months ago. Because AHWWG has no Wikipedia article, this can be a challenge. Any discussion?? Georgia guy 20:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The reference should not have been removed merely because of the lack of a corresponding WP article. That's what red links are for: when the corresponding article does someday emerge, this one will automatically link to it. I think the useful reference should be restored, and encourage you to do so. --StanZegel  (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "A Hunting We Will Go" now redirects to this page - it is linked from other articles, such as "The Farmer in the Dell". There is essentially no information about "A Hunting We Will Go" here, or on any other page I can find. Definitely a hole which needs to be filled. 68.236.190.79 (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Extra verse
I learned a third verse, which was always sung.

Oh, a hunting we will go A hunting we will go We’ll catch a fox, and put him in a box And then we’ll let him go.

Some research to substantiate this could improve the article. I wonder if it is linked to the association of this rhyme with AHWWG? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:E287:1901:E91F:FE4:6812:F0DD (talk) 09:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Personal Opinion
Removed this:

"HG - i believe it is about Richard III. He was the last King from the family of York, and usurped the throne in 1483. In the battle of Bosworth in 1485, in which he was killed by the army of Henry Tudor, he began as what many consider the stronger of the two, and took with him ten thousand men. He began the battle at the top of the hill and fought downwards ("he marched them up to the top of the hill and he marched them down again..."). Despite his larger army and advance, he lost."

Editor might well be right, but an encyclopaedia entry doesn't start with "I believe". - Shrivenzale 19:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC) (I made this change originally from another computer and didn't have my login details to hand.)

Shrivenzale might well be right, but it should be noted that the entire article is idle speculation and it might well be eliminated altogether, as reading it is a great waste of time for anyone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglas W. Reynolds (talk • contribs) 11:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Quotes
Expect this to get reverted again as WP:MOSMUSIC calls for song titles to be in quotes, not "inverted commas" (around here we call this mark an apostrophe). --Gadget850 (talk) 00:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

In British English those are quotes. Conventions are different in British and American publishing. Both are usually accepted. Because the subject is originally British I used British conventions (as I would for spelling). If it was American I would use those, particularly under the guidelines on stability of articles. See American and British English differences --Sabrebd (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

--Gadget850 (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You are entering ' which is a hex 27 which is an apostrophe
 * Inverted commas or single quotes are ‘ and ’ hex 91 and 92; see quotation mark
 * I don't particularly care, but don't be surprised to see this type of edit reverted as it is not covered in the MOS
 * If you are interested in pushing this you should discuss it at WP:MOSMUSIC

Its a fair point on hex 27. I have changed them.--Sabrebd (talk) 08:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Origin
"James II ... marched his troops to Salisbury Plain ..." No hills on Salisbury plain - please expand upon this tenious theory to maintain crdulity. Leegee23 (talk) 19:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The Most Common Attribution
I am surprised that there is no mention of the most common reason for the attribution to the Napoleonic era Duke. This has been taught to my knowledge in the British Army since my grandfather's day and was certainly taught to me. The song was a sarcastic response of his fellow officers who objected to the fact that he was a keen professional and insisted that they forego their social lives to take part in manoeuvres, which they thought pointless. He is widely regarded as the originator of formation (rather than individual and unit) training in the British Army. DickyP (talk) 13:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It is in the article. The big picture of his statue is a clue.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 14:01, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't say there wasn't an attribution - what I pointed out the absence of the 'real' reason for the attribution to him: his significant place in the history of military training as a discipline. DickyP (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Then why not get a reliable source and put it in?--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 16:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * British army traditions are, as often as not, rarely dependable sources of attribution, and this would seem to be no exception. Frederick, Duke of York, did promote standardisation of drill procedures to allow the efficient movement of troops in large formations, but it was Major General David Dundas, the officer that devised the system, who, known as "Old Pivot,' became the butt of some officers' humour. Whether or not it is deemed likely that Army officers  would sit down to pen satirical rhymes, it is clear from the multiple lyrics and no clear date of origin that,as with all nursery rhymes, a single historical point of origin can never be determined.

JF42 (talk) 13:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

If it was published in 1642, then how can it possibly be about Prince Frederick, born 1763?! (Or, for that matter, James II?) 82.46.70.132 (talk) 00:03, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

==

There was a Captain Kirk He had a thousand men He beamed them up onto his ship And beamed them down again

Now when you're up, you're up And when you're down, you're down And when you're only halfway up, You're nowhere to be found! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.89.35 (talk) 01:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

American Revolutionary protest song
I have received a story that the song was sung by frustrated Continental soldiers in response to the drilling occuring after Washington engaged Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben. Anyone else? 2605:A601:46D:B01:CABC:C8FF:FEA5:82F4 (talk) 02:17, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Actions
In my experience, it has often been sung with the action of the singers reversed in alternate renditions, or in renditions chosen at random (or by an undisclosed pattern) and announced by the Leader. Or reversed for half of the participants, or with either the Leader or the others moving the wrong way. In any case, the chaos is thereby increased. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 21:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Battle of Turcoing
Although the battle of Turcoing was a debacle, and the allied attack failed to achieve any of its goals, the Duke of York's contingent, very much a minority partner in the alliance, as Prof. Black points out, aquitted itself well, as generally was the case durng the Flanders phase of the 1793-94 campaign. It was only after the indecisive battle of Fleurus  a month later (not mentioned by Black) that the Austrians abandoned Flanders and left York facing the French in overwhelming numbers and forced to retreat behind the water defences of the Lower Rhine in Holland.

The British army remained in the field for a further six month and it was this period of retreat and retrenchment that exposed his limitations as a commander, although he was let down by the government, his Dutch and Austrian allies  and by the elements. To some extent, a scapegoat was required for the failings of the British administration and inefficient military establishment, and so he was called back to London, never to rejoin his command. Ironically, it was only after his recall, that his army was forced to abandon Holland and make an ignominious retreat to Germany a full month after he had returned to London.

It should also be noted that, not only did York not excersise overall command in Flanders, but he also commanded the British expedition to the Helder in 1799 (another candidate for the song).

It might be more accurate to excise the reference to Turcoing and simply state: His most significant field command  was during the Flanders Campaign of 1793–4. Despite the British troops having some success against the French, in the summer of 1794 the Duke was obliged to retreat into the Netherlands and he was subsequently recalled to England.

This could have had a Double Meaning
Oh, the grand old Duke of York

He "had" ten thousand men; (teasing or mocking that he'd performed sexual acts with many males)

He marched them up to the top of the hill, (to have sexual relations)

And he marched them down again. (after the act)

When they were up, they were up, (when on the hill, they were erect)

And when they were down, they were down, (and when they came down, they weren't)

And when they were only halfway up,

They were neither up nor down. (on the ascent, they were semi-erect, in anticipation.) --Dr zoidberg590 (talk) 00:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Remember these were marching songs for soldiers, who need to keep their spirits up, with a bit of humour.

Since there is no support for this, in any source, this idea looks to be more about you than the Duke of York. 2A00:23C7:E287:1901:E91F:FE4:6812:F0DD (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

In popular culture
Following the Settlement of the Virginia Giuffre v. Prince Andrew case a satyrical version was developed. Oh the Grand old Duke of York, He had 12 million quid. He gave it to someone he never met, For something he never did. The edit above has been moved here pending discussion. There is no agreement on the reliability of the source cited and the article only says that the parody is "alleged" and "claimed". WP guidelines require a corroborative trustworthy source in such cases. It is questionable, anyway, whether topical items such as what is alleged are encyclopedically noteworthy in themselves; it will depend on whether the item remains so after the immediate occasion. As a precedent, items concerning former president Trump that were only briefly topical have routinely been deleted on WP and were so even during his term. Sweetpool50 (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. In fact, Daily Mirror is a tabloid, and tabloids are generally unreliable. Not to mention that the whole thing was rather trivial. Keivan.f  Talk 15:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I also agree. This is a minor jingle that somebody has made up that will be forgotten almost immediately. Wikipedia isn't the place for that type of transitory stuff. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

The original version seems to have appeared in a tweet dated 10:35 PM · Feb 15, 2022 by Balderdashing through the sloe @notDcfcBoss. A google search dated Before 16 Feb 2022 on "The grand old Duke of York" confirms this. The wording presented was: The grand old Duke of York He borrowed 12 million quid He gave it to someone He’d never ever met and for something he never did I can well imagine that people in the royal household may either have found this themselves, had it quoted to them or have come up with it independently. Huff post makes reference to the tweet. Time will tell if this version of the rhyme develops a more noteworthy level of traction. GregKaye 17:23, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems that the parody has now made it to the commercial sector as reported by Clashmusic.com. I've tagged the item as spam for the moment since the source and its commercial wording seems suspect. The IP editor responsible states that he "honestly" can't see a problem with it. Are there any more comments,, , ...others? Sweetpool50 (talk) 22:42, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think right now it is totally out of place. The article must discuss the actual rhyme first, and then references in the popular culture should appear at the very end. Keivan.f  Talk 22:51, 28 May 2022 (UTC)