Talk:The Great Gama/Archive 1

Untitled
He was a pure Kashmiri Butt (Bhat) like his grandaughterb Kalsoom. If you referred to him as a Punjabi he woould surely have not liked it. He did live in Punjab but was a pure ethnic Kashmiri. So was Iqbal his grandfather was from the famous Sapru clan.

His fight with Balram Heeraman Singh Yadav is carefully planted and fake. In this age of disinformation such things are not unusual.

Any honest person will mention that he was truly one of greatest wrestlers ever. He was lucky to have good genes (Kashmiri-Aryan-Central-Asian) worked very hard and had the best quality meat. Like all Kashmiris he consumed a huge amount of meat. He was also intelligent and cool, this helped coupled with high quality puritan habits. Yes Rahim Butt Sultaniwala was as good as him. The whole Indian subcontinent is proud of him. What a joke to make Gama a Gujjar. Firstly, no Gujjars in Kashmir, totally different people from Cantral Asian Aryan Kashmiris. Next how can one make Kulsoom Butt (with a pure Kashmiri surname) as a Gujjar. Call her a Gujjar or the Kashmiri Nawaz a Gujjar note the reaction. The people who think they can create a confusion are a bunch of fools. Many people are jealous of Gama. He was probably the greatest genuine wrestler ever. He and Rahim Sultaniwali were from the Kashmir Valley origin of the Butt (Bhat) clan. There are still Buts (Bhats) in the Kashmir Valley. To undermine him people are trying to compare him to fake wrestlers who fought Noora (fake) wrestling bouts. All bouts of Gama and Rahim were genuine.

I am a Magrey of Kashmir. This is a warrior clan which gets its name from Sanskrit Magasa. In fact our ancestor Lada Magasa was a great warrier. The Bhat (Buts) are of the Kashmiri Brahmin origin clan Both Magreys and Bhats are pure Central Asian Aryans. Kashmir is truly Central Asia. The Avesta informs us that the Saraswati River (Haraxvaiti River) flowed close to this region.

We have no Gujjars in Kashmir. They are nomadic people who come in summers to the Valley and speak Gujri and not Kashmiri. No Butt is a Gujjar.

Mustaq Magrey

Criticism of The Great Gama
This article doesn't state that The Great Gama probably engaged in a "worked sport" although he may not have known that, that some or all of his opponents were paid to lose by Gama's handlers and sponsors, or that his style of wrestling was more like sumo pushing of Japan (that form of grappling is still practiced today in India). Indian wrestling was just as fixed as American and European matches, and the style was totally different. May want to check out the definite history of instead of this wiki article which smells like a myth: http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_noble_0502.htm Additionally Gama is NOT ranked as a Top Wrestler of All Time according to Wrestling Observer, Pro Wrestling Torch, or Pro Wrestling Illustrated. Please- no offense meant, but this wiki reeks of nationalism and ethnic pride. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.17.186.130 (talk) 15:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And your comments above smell of jealousy? How was Gama Pahalwan able to "fix" or pay money to have his matches fixed in England, when he was being ruled by the British at that time and defeated his opponents on their home ground, United Kingdom? Besides he was an ordinary subject of the British Empire and had meager financial resources. Ngrewal1 (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The Jews are busy creating a confusion and fake controversies on our planet. The aim being to push the Jewish agenda on our planet. Gama was a genuinely an extraordinary wrestler. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.68.19.159 (talk) 11:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Gujjar clan
The Great Gama belongs to the Gujjar clan but many people misunderstand and announce him of some other caste only because of that he belongs to the Kashmiri origin but census tell that 20% of the population of Kashmir is Gujjar. ''' Kashmiris are still known by castes such as Wani, Tantrey, Magrey, etc. All genuine Bhats (Butts) are of Brahmin origins. Dars, Pandits, Reshis are also of Brahmin origins. This is true in Pakistan as well as you find, Dars, Butts, Magrey, Wanis, etc. in Kashmir and Pakistan to this day. . Gujjars are not Kashmiris and Gama was not a Gujjar.''' Kashmiris belong to the pure Aryan Race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.103.243.225 (talk) 19:32, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

His family traces their origin from kashmir valley (srinagar region) and there is no presence of any gujjars in that area, it is kashmiri/kashur speaking population. And moreover all his family members use Butt as their surname which is typical punjabi surname for those who trace their lineage from kashmiri/kashur speaking areas of kashmir valley (srinagar and adjoing areas). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.8.92.145 (talk) 09:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

The Bhats (Buts) are found all over Kashmir. They belong to the highest caste and there are Hindu Bhats (Buts) and Muslim Bhats (Buts) Hindu converts to Islam. The wife of a Bhat is referred to as a Butni still among the Hindus in Kashmir. Thus no confusion and no one can create a controversy to remove the name Bhat (But) from the mighty Kashmiri Gama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.79.72.208 (talk) 06:50, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

There is also no presence of Butt people in Srinagar. Butt word is not only those who migrate from Kashmir but it is a separate caste and number of Butt are yet in Kashmir. Secondly there are number of people who became Butt after migration from Kashmir but they are not genuine Butt so the same case is with the person who is writing this stuff means "Jaali Butt" because he even does not know about the reality of Butt people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.152.58.240 (talk) 17:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Help
User:The Ogre can you please help me out in editing Gama. خرم Khurram 15:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course I can give a hand, Khurram. Maybe the best way is for you to had stuff to the articles and then I can look a them and make some improvements if needed be. By the way, is Gama a proper name, a nickname or what? Does ir mean something? The Ogre 17:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Gama was a Butt and his family originated from the Kashmir Valley. These Butts were Kashmiri Brahmins who had converted to Islam. http://www.wrestling-titles.com/personalities/gama/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.178.36.176 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC) ''' Gama and his family are very proud of their Kashmiri origins. Some foreigners (The Jews) want to change the origin of this great wrestler.''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.164.13.7 (talk) 10:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Gama &rarr; Great Gama (wrestler)
Please do not move article content about by cut-and-paste; this separates the content from the history, and causes problems for us with respect to the GNU Free Documentation License. I have corrected the problem, but please use the move feature in the future. Rob Church Talk 18:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks Robchurch! I will do as you say. The Ogre 18:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. If you have any other queries, please don't hesitate to ask. Rob Church Talk 18:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

GREAT
NICE JOB الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 19:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Check these

 * 
 * Pehlwani
 * 
 * Great Gama
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 

الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 22:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

this picture is Gama's original picture. Ghulam Muhammad Nick Name was Gama. in 1910 he visited Europe for participate in World Heavy weight competition. Initially organizer rejected him because his height was just 5'7. He challenge all the wrestlers. first time 5 wrestlers fought with him and he defeated all of them within a minute. it increase his popularity in england. within a month he defeated 215 wrestlers. At this stage British news papers start campaign in his favor and wrestling authorities allowed him to participate in competition where he defeated all wrestlers. In his whole life, no one could defeat him. Just Raheem Baksh draw 3 matches with him. he won more than 1200 wrestling in his life. No one could match his power till date now. when he was just 19 years old, he lifted a stone, weighted 1200 kg. This stone is display in India. another American wrestler use Gama's name in his wrestling career. ( Great Gama) So don't mis him with Gama.

*sources*
In his first encounters with Raheem Sultani Wala there needs to be some sources for the events listed.

Clarification Needed
I think this is a serviceable article but much of the language is ambiguous. I think with an extraordinary figure like Gama, who is such a legend in Asia but relatively unknown in the West, it is vital the information be clear and consicse. Here are the areas that I would like to see clarification.

Quote: Gama was bleeding from his nose and ears but he managed to destroy the lungs and heart of Raheem Baksh.  What does the author mean by "destroy the lungs and heart"? Did Gama simply wear out Baksh or did he use some wrestling move that actually injured the lungs and heart?

Quote: '''He was awarded the prize and the John Bull Belt. Receiving this belt entitled Gama to be called Rustam-e-Zamana or World Champion. '''  I have no idea what this means. First, what exactly was the “John Bull Belt” (I presume it was regional belt) and why did it entitle Gama to World Champion status?

Quote '''The result of the bout was, however, drawn quickly when Gama threw Zbyszko in only 42 seconds. ''' Why are you using the word “drawn” in this context? A “draw” in sports means there was no winner. I know of no English idiom that includes the term “the bout was drawn.” Also, if you mean to suggest that Gama won the match, please explain what you mean by “threw.” What is this a type of wrestling that requires throws (similar to sumo) in order to win? The wrestling I am aware of requires an opponent be pinned or submitted. Jackbox1971 01:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Gama as World Champion
I found this while doing some research: '''"Gama Gets Belt and Title over in England," Seattle Times, October 15, 1910, 5. The end of the Zbysco-Gamma (sic) farce came when, before an admiring throng of Britons and East Indians, Horatio Bottomley presented Gamma with a belt inscribed, ‘Champion Wrestler of the World.’ To their credit be it said that the papers here want to know where Gotch comes in. Zybsco failed to appear on the last day of the continuous performance ‘wrestle,’ as he had a very important engagement to meet Doc Roller in Vienna. '''

So, according to this article, Gama was awarded the World Title by default. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the so-called John Bull Belt.

John Bull clarified
According this article at, written by someone is a Gama scholar: "The contest between Gama and Doc Roller took place at the Alhambra Theatre on the afternoon of August 8, 1910. It had been organised by John Bull, the popular magazine which seemed to support Gama’s cause throughout his time in England, thus giving rise to the idea, strongly held by Indian writers, that there was a John Bull wrestling tournament that Gama entered and won. The contest was for £200 a side, the best of three falls, with the stranglehold and full nelson barred." Bottom line, no "John BulL Belt," just a cash award. Jackbox1971 02:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

First match vs. Zbyszko
According to his article, that was a draw by the rules, despite Zbyszko's bad position. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.54.175.144 (talk) 18:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Poor accuracy
This article links to news articles which are demonstrably folklore and not fact - stating that this man lifted a 1200kg rock (impossible) and other "feats". Strongly suggest that such "sources" are deleted from the article and banned from Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.64.57 (talk) 13:34, 29 December 2019 (UTC)