Talk:The Hierophant

Untitled
I removed the "Examples" section since it was entirely Original Research which Wikipedia does not allow. I left the "mythopoeteic interpretation" section because that may have come from a reputable source but it seems to be something based on personal interpretation like the "Examples" section. - DNewhall

if they were to small
I think the word to should be the word "too".

Unverifiable and unbalanced content
The article is just personal opinions from an occult enthusiast about the nature and meaning of a particular tarot card. No peer reviewed books or journal articles are cited. No references or footnotes are given. When a new statement is added, the source needs to be cited, and the source needs to be verifiable, and reliable. Waite is not an unbiased, factual source on the history or evolution of tarot cards. The work can be cited properly, however: "Waite's opinion in his book The Pictorial Key to the Tarot ... etc" The other sources are definitely of questionable academic weight.

The card in question has a history of over 500 years in European card games in which it is used as trump card (see Tarocchi). The article is unbalanced in that it only features the recent uses of the card for divination. This makes the article biased due to its recentism. Since the article ignores use of the card for game play in Europe and other parts of the world, it offers an anglo-american perspective that raises NPOV issues. There are academic sources and sources from international organizations discussing the history and evolution of the "Pope" card as well as its use in games. Such sources need to be utilized. This card represent the Pope, and its designation as the Heirophant is recent and derives from 17th and 18th century occultists. It has no historical background beyond occult uses. The article does not even address the controversy the card caused with the Vatican and why substitutes for the card were used such as Jupiter and the four Moors. - Parsa 08:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not the card that's the problem. I'm here to copyedit, and there are major problems.  The other card articles in this series are not quite as unclear and opinionated as this one.  Claiming that the Tarot, through interpretation, leads to Truth is quite a stretch - but beyond mere copyediting.  I'll try and fix the tone where I can.Levalley (talk) 18:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

This article should be about the Hierophant - not about Tarot in general.
This paragraph should perhaps be merged into the general article on Tarot:


 * the article on the Hierophant (ancient title) is Hierophant. Though this article should be moved to The Hierophant (Tarot card)Flygongengar (talk) 22:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A. E. Waite was a key figure in the development of modern Tarot interpretations. However, not all interpretations follow his views. Please remember that all Tarot decks used for divination and oracular inquiry, et cetera, are crafted and interpreted through personal experience: stated differently, they afford and furnish various aspects of Truth to those who use Tarot as a method of divination.

Copyediting
The article has several contradictions and is hard to copyedit for clarity. Does the card stand for organized religion or any religion? Animistic religions don't have hierophants or hierarchy, which is why native tarots illustrate the card with Coyote or Shaman. At any rate, either say "organized and non-organized religions," which is therefore "any religion," or be consistent.

I put in fact tags. This article makes many unsupported claims. I toned them down by changing words like "many" to "some," (really, are there that many religions that deny anesthesia for surgery?) Some statements, like "life-denying" I left in, presuming they have some esoteric significance, but otherwise, life-threatening would make more sense. This article may be purposefully ambiguous (it's about a Tarot card), but perhaps that needs to be stated somewhere. I've read quite a bit about Tarot (including all of Dummett's work) and some of this seems opinionated - that needs work. Still, it's a start.Levalley (talk) 19:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

A citation is definitely needed for the assertion that children begin to understand those dualisms at the same time - that's counter to what's in the child development literature. "Me and thee" is redundant. Random citation of Freud and Foucault are poorly sourced (which parts of Freud? Which parts of Foucault?  Why those two and not Jung?  Why not modern ego psychology, instead, which is where the term "individuation" is actually developed?)

Which of these meanings of the word athwart was intended? athwart - 5 results a⋅thwart /əˈθwɔrt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-thwawrt] Show IPA –adverb 1. 	from side to side; crosswise. 2. 	Nautical. a. 	at right angles to the fore-and-aft line; across. b. 	broadside to the wind because of equal and opposite pressures of wind and tide: a ship riding athwart. 3. 	perversely; awry; wrongly. –preposition 4. 	from side to side of; across. 5. 	Nautical. across the direction or course of. 6. 	in opposition to; contrary to.

None of them seems to fit - I believe the writer meant "straddling" or something like that (not at right angles to, nor in opposition to). He has already been described as almost always sitting (on a throne).

There are a number of other problems (doesn't every one die/all paths lead to Death, etc.?) The problems with citations are numerous and some of those are two years old.

It reads grammatically now, I believe, without redundancies, fixed some problems with lack of parallelism and punctuation. Am removing the copyedit banner.--Levalley (talk) 19:36, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Native Tarots? This a strictly a European tradition and so-called "North American" or "Siberian" Tarot decks have got to be very recent (probably 60s or later) modification of a European card deck. I agree with earlier poster that this article needs much less esotericism and much more actual history of a means of playing games of skill and chance that secondarily became a means of divination in some places. And for God's sake, some sourcing! Put up or shut up. There are plenty of sites on the internet for people to share their hobbies. don't try to colonize this one. Better a stub than all this blather. 68.178.50.46 (talk) 03:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Reference in media
Should this article include a popular reference in media? Heirophant green in jojo's bizzare adventure is named after this card GrandMoff01 (talk) 07:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)