Talk:The Hole (Scientology)

Section titles?
I do think the section titles should be changed. They do not seem neutral at the moment. Really, this should be formatted like any other article about a place or building. First off, have a History section with subsection attached on to that. Then other sections can be proposed from there. Silver seren C 23:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if you can suggest a better set of titles, please go ahead. Prioryman (talk) 23:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because the stated explanation is complete nonsense - the subject of the article has received high-profile coverage in multiple reliable sources, including a Pullitzer Prize-winning newspaper and a book by a Pullitzer Prize-winning author. Furthermore, the article has already been reviewed and approved for running as a Did you know? article - see Template:Did you know nominations/The Hole (Scientology). Finally, the article has so far had over 105,000 page views in only three days – without any disputes or controversies – and has been highly rated by dozens of readers (though unfortunately the page ratings aren't currently visible due to this speedy deletion request). I also note that the nominator of the speedy deletion has a severe conflict of interest due to being a self-acknowledged member of the Church of Scientology. Prioryman (talk) 18:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking over the article I could find nothing that is inaccurate or, for that matter, nothing that is not neutral point of view. So far the current version as of right now agrees with numerous newspaper, magazine, television coverage of the Scientology organization's "hole" as well as eye-witness testimony from current and previous Scientology customers.
 * Requests for deletion is going to be coming from current owners/operators as well as current customers who are performing "amends" to be allowed out of the corporation's "Rehabilitation Project Force" prison and for other benefits.
 * If vandalism and deletion are a problem, the same IP addresses that are banned from vandalizing information about Scientology should be applied to stop Scientology customers and employees from vandalizing this entry. Damotclese (talk) 19:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I should add that I'm an expert on Scientology, inquiry on my background may be posted to my talk wall. Damotclese (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because it is the subject of numerous secondary sources, sufficient to meet GNG, and any NPOV issues can be handled without deletion. --– Muboshgu (talk) 18:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because...it was, first of all, reviewed at Did you know nominations for approval to be a Main Page DYK. It was already vetted by a seasoned editor at DYK. One of the criteria for DYK, is they won't allow attack articles for consideration. The editor who nominated this for Speedy Deletion is by their own admission on their user page, on Wikipedia for the sole reason of defending Scientology. Talk about Conflict of Interest on this article! -— Maile (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I have disclosed that I am editing for WP:NPOV on Scientology-related pages. I don't see why this is a problem. Did you do research on the editor that wrote this article? "Prioryman" has been topic-banned on Scientology and his credibility is questionable. See following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology/Proposed_decision#ChrisO_restricted

Furthermore, all the "sources" used in this page go towards the same bias and agenda. There is no neutral source to fall back on. "The Hole" only "reportedly" exists. Why maintain a page when it's all based on allegations?NestleNW911 (talk) 19:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think dead agenting works on Wikipedia, so I'd suggest that you focus on the sources rather than the article's author. Quite obviously I am not under a topic ban and my "credibility" is hardly an issue given that I'm not a source for the article. This is an article about an ongoing controversy, so there is naturally going to be a polarization between what supporters and detractors of the Church of Scientology say. As long as both sides are reported fairly and from reliable sources, it's fine. Many others have read this article and they seem to think it's fine - if you look under The Hole (Scientology) at the "Rate this page" section, you'll see that the article's trustworthiness and objectivity are highly rated (4.5 and 4.3 out of 5 respectively). Prioryman (talk) 19:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand your hesitation in having "The Hole" deleted. Yes, I have disclosed my identity as a Scientologist and one of my main concerns is NPOV in Scientology-related pages. I'd like to emphasize that I have honestly declared my affiliation and I do my best to abide by Wikipedia policy. (I honestly felt that the page was contradicting Wiki Policy) Having said that, I can defer to the maintenance of this page, but I do not agree that both sides are "reported fairly." I will continue my research as a Wikipedian and propose edits in order to balance the perspective of this page because it is teeming with challenged NPOV and degree of questionable sources. I also question the reliability of the ratings on this page - these ratings may come from individuals who have a biased agenda.NestleNW911 (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, you're very welcome to propose edits (and I would suggest proposing them first here rather than directly editing the page), if you think there are specific things that need to be addressed. So far you've only offered general concerns. It would be more helpful if you could identify specifics. Prioryman (talk) 20:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Just for the interest of the parties keeping tabs on this, NestleNW911, the editor who proposed the deletion has been topic banned for one year, "and his credibility is questionable" to quote NestleNW911's line of reasoning.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the update, I believe we can inform external individuals about the Internet who are interested in this Wikipedia entry that the issue of the proposed deletion has been resolved and that The Hole will not be removed. If I'm mistaken, please let me know. Thanks! Damotclese (talk) 19:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --108.232.106.150 (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC) ... It is in the public interest that this information be published. The reports on the Church of Scientology "Hole" are backed up by a couple of dozen first-hand eye-witness accounts.

Do not let Wikipedia content be dictated by an abusive cult dictator, please.

Michael A. Hobson

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --72.91.107.82 (talk) 03:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC) I was there. The Hole is real and there has been extensive media coverage of this very subject despite many threats of legal action by the church of Scientology. None of those threats have materialized into legal action where there would be a chance for all the evidence to be disclosed in a court of law under oath. The media coverage itself is evidence enough that this is a topic of public interest. Mike Rinder

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because...the former Scientology executives who have blown the whistle on the existence and abuse in The Hole were known as leaders within the Scientology community worldwide. In San Antonio Texas on Thursday, February 9th 2012 Debbie Cook former head of Flag, the world's largest Scientology delivery organization testified under oath not only of the existence of The Hole but testified in detail the abuse she witnessed and endured personally. The last people in the world that veteran Scientologists like myself would ever have expected to see in global news headlines would have been Debbie Cook, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder blowing the whistle on crimes within the church and yet there they were. These three specifically were known by name and face throughout the Scientology community worldwide respected for their leadership roles. To delete this entry would be to contribute to the abuse that good people are enduring right this minute in that hell hole because it's been so easy for it to be hidden behind the razor fences that surround it.

Gayle Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.106.158.98 (talk) 03:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here)evidence exists in the form of affidavids from people who have been forcibly placed in 'the hole' as well as anecdoital evidence from numerous people that the hole exists and there are people imprisoned against their will within it. Photos also exist of the hole.--Michael IFA (talk) 04:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... it is established fact by sworn testimony as stated in the article the Hole exists, or clearly existed through recent times. It is also fact many former high ranking executives are still being held in this compound by order of David Miscavige. The compound is known as Gold or Int (International) Base. The Hole as the photo clearly shows are two double wide trailers converted first to offices, then to a jail. What has gone on there is now a matter of sworn court testimony, re: Debbie Cook. The entire compound is surrounded by razor wire and/or security fencing. RS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.238.219.230 (talk) 05:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be deleted at all because:

1) A Google search for 'The Scientology Hole' generates "About 2,160,000 results (0.36 seconds)" on 29th January 2013, indicating significant interest in this subject.

2) The Hole (Scientology) is referred to in newspapers widely: The Daily Mail PUBLISHED: 16:24, 3 July 2012 | UPDATED: 08:50, 4 July 2012 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168225/Tom-Cruise-Katie-Holmes-divorce-Inside-Scientologys-Sea-Org-Suri-faced-joining.html)

The Sun Published: 17th February 2012 (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4135513/Scientologists-waterboarded-and-beat-me-says-former-church-official.html)

Daily Express Tuesday July 3,2012 (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/330457/Scientology-A-cult-in-crisis)

The Independent Tuesday 08 February 2011 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sect-scandal-scientologists-outraged-by-defectors-claims-2207428.html?origin=internalSearch

San Antonio Express News/My San Antonio Wednesday, April 25, 2012 (http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/article/Church-of-Scientology-drops-Bexar-suit-against-3510603.php)

New York Times Published: January 17, 2013 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/books/review/going-clear-lawrence-wrights-book-on-scientology.html?pagewanted=all)

International Business Times July 04 2012 10:19 AM (http://www.ibtimes.com/mystery-shelly-miscavige-wife-scientology-leader-and-matchmaker-tom-cruise-and-katie-holmes-missing)

The Village Voice Thu., Aug. 2 2012 (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/08/scientology_concentration_camp_the_hole.php)

Tampa Bay Times In Print: Sunday, January 13, 2013 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1270047.ece)

The New York Daily News July 2, 2012 (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/church-scientology-inspector-general-marty-rathbun-explains-escaped-destructive-cult-katie-holmes-article-1.1106735)

Richard Kaminski (talk) 09:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * What's up with all these belated "contested deletion" sections? The article isn't being deleted. It's obvious it would survive an AfD. We don't need these statements any more. Ideas for dealing with POV are more salient. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Why do you think there are a whole series of identically formed protests about this article??? Carrite (talk) 03:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit baffled myself. Given the preformatting, I think someone has posted or emailed to people a link to the diff where NestleNW911 made their speedy deletion nomination (i.e. ). These IP editors all seem to be clicking on the "Click here to contest this speedy deletion button" - that's what generates the boilerplate we're seeing here. I'll try to get to the bottom of it, as this is all rather unnecessary. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, I figured someone send an APB out on a forum or whatnot to attract people to come save the article. I'm wondering why they're clicking a "Click here to contest this speedy deletion button" that is no longer on the page. Maybe Occum's razor says that whoever posted on that forum told people to do that here, even though it's no longer necessary to contest the deletion that's already been contested. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if you look at the diff I posted above, it shows the button. I think people are going to that diff or that version of the article rather than to how it is now. I've looked on a couple of forums already but not found any APBs. If it's been sent out on a private email list, as I suspect, I don't think there's anything we can do other than hatting any further contests. I think we'll survive it, somehow. Prioryman (talk) 00:38, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --69.197.221.160 (talk) 05:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It is 100% truth. And scientology wants to keep their lies going to extort money from people.

Contested Deletion
Testimony with regards to the hole has been recorded under oath during the trial of Debbie Cook. It's existence is well documented and corroborated. Whether it exists now or has been disbanded after such public attention is irrelevant to the historical value of the information.

Scientology's controversial nature is under heavy scrutiny by the media and public at large. That coupled with the informative nature of wikipedia should be enough to allow the survival of this page.

Scientology representatives continuously claim that the sources quoted in articles are unreliable. The do this by creating some kind of mass, unsubstantiated conspiracy against the church. As is the case with most conspiracy theories it lacks a simple ingredient: motive.

The existence of this information is important to people who are seeking to research Scientology and the nature of the abuses that are occurring within the church. It would be against the ideals and goals of wikipedia to stomp out a page such as this, especially at the behest of a large corporation such as Scientology.

I recommend that this page remain up as it is and will remain a valuable research to people with questions about Scientology. I sincerely hope that Wikipedia does not bow to the wishes of a criminal organization. It would be in Wikipedia's interest to refer to the lawsuits against the organization of Scientology in the country of France (seeing as Wikipedia is a global organization).

Sincerely,

Derek Bloch

Dbloch7986 (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --74.96.148.253 (talk) 05:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Scientology who has been banned from making changes on Wikipedia is trying to delete this page.

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --66.131.109.244 (talk) 05:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC) This is NOT an attack page, it is a page that provides accurate information to help others avoid such abuses. Please do NOT delete.

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --Deanblair06 (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC) This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --Deanblair06 (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)There are literally scores of people who were in the hole and have talked about it. One of the more well known was Debbie Cook. She had been the Captain of the Flag Land Base in Clearwater Florida when she was called by David Miscavige to California where she personally was placed in the hole and testified to such in court.

There is also Mike Rinder who was formerly the spokesperson for Scientology until he was placed in the hole. Really, there are many who were forced into the hole and have since left Scientology and have testified about it. Please do not take the current leaders word or the word of one of his side kicks. Of course he doesn't want anyone to know and will deny it as they have for years but people who have been in the hole have written about it and books have been authored about it as well. The hole does exist.

Debbie Cooks testimony can be viewed by going to Tony Ortega's blog where he has video of it filmed in the court room. http://tonyortega.org/

Mark Headley wrote a book and discusses it there. Blown for Good by Marc Headley.

Marty Rathbun was a former 2nd in command and has discussed it at length on his blog "Moving on up a Little Higher". He was witness to a hundred others who experienced the hole as was Mike Rinder.

Deanblair06 (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because..

Short answer: Without truth you have nothing,

Long answer: There are worse places in $cientology than the hole, like the Lady Washington Gold mine in Tolumene CA... That mine was once owned by a big banking family, and used indian slaves, who would be paid by the weight of gold they scraped out of the rock with the golds balance with raisens on the balance.. When they could not work they were tossed down and unused mineshaft.. If you cant deal with the heat, I'll web the page. Regards Arnie Lerma Lermanet.com Exposing the CON — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.170.247.179 (talk) 06:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... It is all true and has been collobrated by many people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.211.35 (talk) 22:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... It refers to an actual place that has been linked to systematic and widespread human rights abuses.

Many people have testified as to its existence including in a court of law, under penalty of perjury.

The world needs to knows about this place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.74.22 (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion: all people have a right to there opinions
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --50.53.155.184 (talk) 07:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Where are you guys coming from? The speedy deletion was removed a long time ago. Silver  seren C 09:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Contested Did You Know? nomination
Regrettably there seems to be some opposition to this article appearing in the Did You Know? section on the Main Page. Comments are invited at Template:Did you know nominations/The Hole (Scientology). Prioryman (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Human Trafficking -- Background
There is a suggestion that the topic of human trafficking be discussed and that perhaps the classification may not be justified strongly enough to include Scientology's "Hole" in that classification. There is an overwhelming amount of documentary evidence both in criminal case law and civil case law covering Scientology's human trafficking however the most recent Federal investigations (which are still pending nation-wide indictments) are well covered:


 * Church o -scientology being investigated for human trafficking allegations


 * Scientology investigated homeland security human trafficking claims tony-ortega


 * Homeland security investigating scientology for human trafficking <-- The most informative


 * The fbi is investigating scientology for human trafficking <-- The most commented


 * Scientology fbi's scientology investigation balancing the first amendment with charges <-- The most well-referenced


 * U.S. Scientology lawsuit

Point being that there is no question whether or not Scientology commits human trafficking, it has been established previously in crimnial and civil cases, one of the most notable being in Madrid where 69 people were indicted for numerous charges including human trafficking. Enough documented evidence exists to warrant this article's classification as including human trafficking; we want articles to be as accurate, non-biased, and as inclusive as reasonable, so the classification is warranted. Damotclese (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


 * FYI, Spain has a problem with human trafficking for the child rape vacation industry Human_trafficking_in_Spain which seems to be the most common form of human trafficking. What Scientology engages in is the more basic for of trafficking which approaches slavery, the inability to leave, make phone calls without being monitored and approved, working for either no wages or for wages that are pennies an hour. Damotclese (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I've looked through those articles and cannot find any statement which ties "human trafficking" to "The hole." Some articles make reference to other articles that have been written about the hole, and some comments from users mention the hole, but nothing that would link this article to human trafficking investigations.  Right now your evidence looks like  original research through WP:SYNTH, or better stated your articles state that scientology is being accused of human trafficking, the hole is an article about scientology, therefore the hole should be tagged for the human trafficking category.  Unless you can show me where in the articles the hole is being investigated as part of the human trafficking claims (I very well could have missed it) then I don't think this article belongs in that category.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure if you're beling deliberatly obtuse :) but for now I will Assume good faith in your query. The Hole discusses the Scientology enterprise's holding of customers and owners/operators against their will by applying manipulative practices to retain defacto-or-realized ownership of an individual's forced behavior (e.g. forced labor or forced sex trade (see Human trafficking and what constitutes traditional human trafficking.) Also see Brainwashing in the Rehabilitation Project Force Dr Stephen Kent)
 * As for "original research," FBI investigations, newspaper articles, and court documents do not constitute "original research." For purposes of the classification of The Hole artuicle being associated with human trafficking, the classification is obviously accurate and shall remain. Damotclese (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * please find a source that will qualify the standards of inclusion set forth in WP:SYNTH, and no I am not deliberatly being obtuse, I'm following wikipedia policies on what counts as verifiable information.  Please remember that this is a Scientology article and is under ARBCOM sanctions, so right now what you are trying to include looks like it is very close to pushing a specific view of Scientology, one which I assure you Scientologists will find as disparaging, so we need to be absolutely sure that when challenged it passes muster.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:34, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * So if you want to include the catagory, you need to have an article that links the subject of the article, "the hole," with human trafficking, otherwise you should probably take this argument to the scientology article.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The article classifications already include The Hole as part of the human trafficking behavior of the Scientology enterprise. References that are rejected by people based upon ideological grounds or upon a difficulty understanding the materials do not invalidate said references. The classification shall remain. Thanks. (Also, Dev-T has ended. Final decision.) Damotclese (talk) 18:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, so here is all I am asking you to do. Find ANY reliable source which says "the hole" (subject of the article) is evidence of "human trafficking" (your claim).  If there aren't ANY reliable sources out there that have made that connection then you are drawing an  original conclusion through WP:SYNTH.  I am assuming by your reaction that you haven't been able to find any WP:RS that say the hole is part of the scientology human trafficking program. (and what the hell is Dev-T?).Coffeepusher (talk) 18:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Also some of your above sources aren't WP:RS, and none of them say that Scientology has committed human trafficking, they all say that charges have been filed, the church was found innocent, investigations ensued, and no further charges have been filed. All of this is "alleged" human trafficking, and none of it has been confirmed by an independent source (ie: courts of law, FBI investigation, etc.).  So placing this article in the human trafficking category seems premature.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * From the articles I've read here and elsewhere, it looks like Scientology and human trafficking is a complicated issue. I believe that it should definitely be mentioned on-wiki, but what is not clear to me is whether or not it should be included in this article.  For what it's worth, I recommend finding one article in WikiProject Scientology to expand the accusations of trafficking, maybe even Scientology and human trafficking.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of those events took place in The Hole, but for now it would be easier to avoid linking the two until more reliable sources are published.  This is not an issue that is going away any time soon, so we can wait to add the link.  Andrew327 06:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Clarity on the building
Can someone provide some source on the identification of this building? The framing of the areial photo here suggests it is the large, warehouse-like building composed of two intersecting squarish forms. However, all the descriptions indicate it is a double-wide trailer home, or multiple such trailer homes connected, which clearly could not be this large building. It seems to me the smaller buildings in front of the one pictured more closely fit the description. Walkersam (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
 * There is some ambiguity to the language, yes. The video surveillance drone camera footage that was made public last month show two buildings that are inter-connected as the Scientology "executive" prison complex, both buildings of which look to comprise double-wide trailers. If I'm not mistaken, "The Hole" consists of two inter-linked double-wide trailers, the skirts around the bottom of the buildings hiding the under-carriage which would contain wheels and tow rigging make it difficult to determine if they are double-wide, yet the article's description appears to be accurate according to the covert video that was taken. Damotclese (talk) 16:37, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Two double-wide trailers linked together?
Seriously? Those buildings don't bear the slightest resemblance to "two double-wide trailers linked together". Either the source for the claim that that is the hole or the source for the claim that the hole is two double-wide trailers is obviously wrong.

Also, the claim that "The executives confined at the Hole are reported to have numbered up to 100 of the most senior figures in Scientology's management" is inconsistent with the claim about two double-wide trailers. The largest double-wide trailers that are about as long as they are wide are 32 by 40 feet. that allows each person six feet by four feet, assuming that there are no bathrooms, kitchens, closets, etc. -- just beds covering every inch of the interior. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The building that became the Hole was an office, not a dormitory. My understanding is that when personnel were confined there, they slept on the floor. I'll rummage up some sources.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  06:28, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Here you go. Probably the most detailed description of the construction of the buildings is in Rinder's book where he mentions the building is two 80-foot long double-wide trailers with a conference room and hallway constructed between them. Here is a screenshot of those pages. To show it's not just one person describing the building thus, one Tampa Bay Times article describes The Hole "based on numerous interviews with a dozen former members of the church's religious order, the Sea Org, and on information found in church materials and court testimony." There are also mentions of the double-wide trailers in Wright's book, Wright's Apostate article, page 340 of Reitman's book, and part 3 of the Truth Rundown series. Note that office/commercial trailers are not at all like residential 'double wides'.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  08:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * OK. The double wide trailers claim is certainly well-sourced. That leaves us with the problem of the image at [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Hole_Gold_Base.jpg ]. I mean, just look at it! Look at the size of the golf carts in front and on the sides. Look at the width of the road. Is anyone here going to seriously suggest that the building shown was trailered in on that road instead of being built on the spot?


 * Who took that picture - presumably with a drone - and how do we know they got the right building? Any chance that the original double wide trailers were replaced with a normal built-in-place structure between the time Rinder describes and the time the photo was taken? Is the photographer the same Sinar Parman nentioned at [ https://tonyortega.org/2017/11/18/sinar-parman-1954-2017-chef-to-scidentologys-celebs-who-escaped-to-dish-on-l-ron-hubbard/ ]?


 * The image shown has very little resemblance to what we say in Mobile_home, which is what Double-wide trailer redirects to. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oh, geez, Guy... are ya gonna make me look through a bunch of youtube videos giving tours of the facility by people who worked there? Because I can do that, but I really don't want to do that just to prove to you that's an image of the actual building used as The Hole. Let's start with:
 * There's the second image, a drawing which matches the photo, on this page (part 3 of the Truth Rundown articles)
 * In the Rinder book, he writes "It looked like a large cake box--square with a flat roof, painted white with a "bunting" of fake blue tiles around the top in an attempt to make it blend in with the other buildings on the property." Then look at the other image from the article, commons:File:The Hole aerial view.jpg, and notice all the other buildings have blue roofs the same color, and none have a flat roof. Also notice that what you thought was a road is actually a footpath, and the trailers are really close to the real road. I wouldn't be surprised if the trailers were trucked in back in the 1980s or so, before the trees grew up and the security fence was installed. Might even have arrived before those little "cottages" in front of it were built; or maybe they are trailers, too.
 * ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Here is an ABC News story; watch 5:40-6:00 for the identification of the building. And this video accompanied this Tampa Bay Times article. I don't know if there is a more official version of it, but here it is for what it's worth. It also identifies that building. It includes a segment by John Brousseau who called it the CMO Int building (as did Rinder in his book) and Brousseau goes on to talk about being ordered to put the bars on the doors and windows. These should be sufficient to settle the matter.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  05:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * You don't have to do anything else. "Square with a flat roof, painted white with a 'bunting' of fake blue tiles around the top in an attempt to make it blend in with the other buildings on the property" is more than sufficient to establish that we have the correct image. I was wrong. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 05:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Phew, thankfully I don't have to go digging some more. One can only read and watch so much of this stuff before going crazy. LOL   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  05:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I know we're not looking for this anymore, but I thought I'd note it here anyway. I just encountered it in a diagram of the entire Gold Base printed inside the front and back covers of the 2009 book Blown for Good. Building #25 is annotated with WDC, CMOI, Exec Strata, "SP Hole". (WDC = Watchdog Committee and CMOI = Commodore's Messenger Organization International.)   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  07:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)