Talk:The Holocaust in Albania

Serb outsiders and German insiders

 * "Kosovo Albanians were generally less hospitable to Jews than their counterparts in Albania. Due to their historical experiences with Serbs and the Ottoman Empire, they tended to be more unfriendly towards outsiders. Consequently, many Kosovo Albanians enthusiastically supported the Germans."

This assertion is POV and illogical and needs serious rewording. Serbs are responsible for Holocaust of Jews organized by Kosovo Albanians? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The prose could be clearer, and the use of "cause and effect" formulations is not a positive, but you have misrepresented the meaning of the paragraph by conflating the two sentences. It is supposed to mean that Kosovar Albanians tended to be xenophobic towards outsiders in general, and that this was due to their previous treatment by the Ottoman Empire and by Serbs. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Kosovo
Why does half of this page discuss Kosovo when it's about Albania? Even though they were part of the same political unit the situation in Kosovo was obviously different than that in Albania as anyone familiar with the topic could tell you. --Yalens (talk) 02:09, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Because Kosovo, Macedonia and the Albanian-inhabited parts of Montenegro were part of Albania during the war. 23 editor (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Not counting notes and references sections, here are the characters total: 15459 w/o spaces. Characters of parts of the page discussing stuff mainly or entirely pertaining to occupied Yugoslav territories: 8403 w/o spaces. Without spaces because I created line breaks where stuff not mainly about occupied Yugoslav territories had been deleted in a word file for the sake of a character count. In short, mainly-Yugoslav stuff is taking up more than half the page. If you don't trust me, I can send you the file, or I can post the remaining parts of the text in a box on the talk page here. By the way, this is after I deleted some of it yesterday. Almost all of this is about Kosovo (aside from a couple lines about Albanian occupied Macedonia), which is much less than half of the territory of Greater Albania. As the page so eloquently itself elaborates, and as everyone who has studied the topic knows, the situation was different.
 * I'm not assuming bad faith- there are plenty of reasons the page could have gotten to be mostly about Kosovo besides anyone being manipulative as one could simply reproduce what they've read in sources or even unknowingly synthesize seemingly relevant stuff. I have not cared yet to do a similar analysis of the edit history or the source list. To be fair, the page does elaborate some of the reasons why Kosovars were in the SS Skanderbeg that don't have to do with racist Serbian rightist views of their supposed "oriental" nature, so it could be worse. On the other hand, the "jihad" material was particularly egregious, especially since the word isn't even used in the Albanian linguistic context (the correct word would be "gazavat"). And in the Ottoman context, it doesn't mean anything close to the same thing, compare instead English uses of "crusade". See also the anti-Kosovar Albanian trope that portrays them as "oriental" Muslim fanatics typically originating in Yugoslav historiography that has been well documented.
 * I think with this in mind the page should get a minor rewrite. All the jihad stuff needs to go, and there should be some mention of the fact that many Albanians in Macedonia and Kosovo did rescue Jews". It's not even hard to find material on this online, here's from the front page of a google search [] [] [] granted the second one comes off as a bit corny. Also important to note in the third one-- the place in Tirana isn't the "only" place in Greater Albania, since I guess this is the scope you guys have made for the article, there are other places in "Greater Albania" that commemorate the Holocaust. Also during the operation to shelter Kosovar refugees in Israeli kibbutzim, Israeli media -- and American media -- and also Netanyahu noted that Kosovar Albanians who had saved Jews during the Holocaust were among those being airlifted to Israel [] [].
 * And overall, of course, the coverage of Albania proper has to be increased or that in Kosovo reduced.--Yalens (talk) 18:15, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Feel free to add more material on Albania-proper, but it should be noted that 40% of Jews living in Italian/Albanian-occupied Kosovo were killed during the Holocaust, as opposed to two Jewish families (yes, two) killed in Albania-proper. There is obviously going to be some disparity in coverage. Historians have noted that the Jews of Kosovo and Albania-proper experienced vastly different fates. Unfortunately, not enough research has been done to figure out why this is. The historian Daniel Perez writes:

"Explaining the difference in the fates of Jews in the annexed territories of Kosovo and Macedonia and those in the Albanian interior presents a particularly difficult challenge for Albanian historians. [...] Contributors to the post-socialist Albanian discussion of the Holocaust fail to address the differences in the survival rates of Jews in Kosovo and Albanian proper, focusing instead on the unison in which members of the nation acted to save Jews from being deported to foreign concentration camps [...] Thus, the reasons for the different survival rates remain elusive."

- Perez 2013, pp. 26–27, ''"Our Conscience is Clean": Albanian Elites and the Memory of the Holocaust in Post-Socialist Albania

While I agree that Kosovo shouldn't necessarily take up the lion's share of the article space, I don't see anything wrong with a slight majority of coverage pertaining to Kosovo and the other annexed territories (for the reasons outlined above). If you have material on Jews in Italian/Albanian-occupied parts of Montenegro I would also encourage you to add it. And next time please make your comments a bit more concise so that other users don't have to go through a long and unwieldy wall of text. Thanks. 23 editor (talk) 21:42, 5 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry about a lot of that above^, lack of sleep is no excuse for a talk page rant and I'm embarrassed. It's a slight majority that pertains to stuff only or mostly about Kosovo, but the remainder is not all only about Albania; a lot of it applies to both. So there's a big disparity between the coverage of Albania proper and the coverage of Yugoslav regions (mostly Kosovo). Many people would perceive a weighting issue there, it really depends on what an editor thinks is the "most important" to get across, which is not something we should necessarily be deciding ourselves. Much of the stuff in Kosovo is relevant and should be mentioned, but the way the page is written it swamps the stuff actually about Albania and variously either leaves it difficult to follow due to narrative switching, or appears like it's trying to make a point (can I just delete the 'jihad' crap? That word is really the main offender) . Despite those two issues the page is well written. One solution is a split whereby an abbreviated section is left on this page that summarizes what happened in the occupied Yugoslav territories and links to that (new) article. Scholarly analysis like that of Perez (currently not on the page) would also fit well in such a linked section. Perhaps the page can be reworded to deal with those reading problems, although the split presents an easy fix. --Yalens (talk) 22:31, 5 July 2017 (UTC)


 * To address the original issue, one of the things about this topic is that we quite naturally end up with a strong emphasis on what the Germans did regarding Jews that were in areas of Albania they controlled, ie parts of Kosovo. In general, the Italians did not persecute Jews in the same way as the Germans, and in some cases they sheltered them. Naturally, given the Germans didn't get control of Albania until after the Italian surrender in September 1943, and even then didn't have the control they would have liked due to ongoing resistance, the focus of this article is going to be on areas where the Germans were able to do what they wanted regarding Jews from the time of the invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941 until they were forced to withdraw due to Red Army advances further north (in late 1944). Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay cool. So (1) the "jihad" stuff (wrong word in Albanian, and it looks placed their to make a point) can go, and (2) as you state yourself ([]), the targets of the Shoah (English Holocaust) are Jews, not Roma, and not Serbs, despite persistent attempts to "Christianize" the tragedy on multiple continents although targeting of social groups driven by similar eugenics ideas by the Nazis like disabled people and LGBT people have been referred to has parallel Holocausts . Both Roma and Serbs were victims of different genocides during the same period, see Porajmos for Roma and Jasenovac for Serbs, and this has to be recognized, but the equation of Serbs with Jews as equally victimized is only offensive to many Jews and also is coopted by Serbian nationalists to bolster their support. One reason the Kosovo-specific stuff takes up over half the page is that 1365 characters are devoted to Xhafer Deva's abuses and planned abuses against Serbian Orthodox people; I've gone ahead and moved most of that to an appropriate page, leaving a couple sentences. -- Persecution of Serbs -- where, surprisingly it wasn't already placed. --Yalens (talk) 16:35, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Korce
It's not true that most Jews were in Korce at the time -- the long running center of Jewish life in Albania was Vlore, in the southwest, not the southeast. I know it's cited, but it should be checked and perhaps given a quote.--Yalens (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Recent additions
A note to interested editors: please adhere to MOS, conform to the sfn ref style and seek consensus by discussing all content changes on the talk page. Thanks. 23 editor (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I intended to fix it to the citation style later. The page is in the middle of work. I'd rather finish fixing the page then discuss the two versions rather than every single individual change at once. A massive revert removing 23,000 characters on a page in progress was a rather excessive reaction. This article may be officially a "good article" but as I brought up earlier, before I came upon it it had astonishing factual errors (the inexistent Korce Jewish community, astonishingly in an RS although it is incredibly obviously false) and glaring omissions, such as zero discussion of Zog's policy which caused thousands of Jews to come into Albania. Calthinus  (talk)  15:04, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I find it odd that you grasp for the Korce example, when there are several glaring misrepresentations in the recent edits, as well as the removal of relevant information, such as the process that accompanied the migration of virtually all Albanian Jews to Israel in the early 1990s, while adding material that has far less bearing (such as the first Jewish-Orthodox intermarriage in Vlora). Moreover, some of the sources that were used in the recent edits appear to be quite dubious and unreliable, such as Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a Sufi imam (not a historian, mind you). Schwartz can hardly be considered an authority on Albanian history. 23 editor (talk) 15:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The Korce example is important to me because it reflects the fact that this became a good article while a failure of fact checking occurred-- no offense, we all make mistakes, but let's be honest, that was a mistake. The Jewish-Ortho intermarriage was not in the main space, it was a quote in a ref that I was using to expand the article so I didn't have so many tabs open -- a result of copy-paste that was never going to end up in the main article. Don't misrepresent. The emigration in the 1990s has nothing to do with events 45 years earlier. (I didn't add Schwartz -- did -- but his statistics have been seen in other sources). Are you seriously defending deleting all of Fischer and etc's discussion of Zog? In pretty much any recount of what happened that is pretty important and it was absent.  Calthinus  (talk)  15:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not. I should have explained myself more clearly. I have no objection to reinserting about half of the material that you added provided that it doesn't violate MOS and conflict with the present referencing style. The additions that I do strongly object to are the non-scholars Stephen Schwartz and Harvey Sarner (inexplicably referred to as Jay Weinstein in your edits), in particular. I am strongly against the potential addition of misleading statements that are often disseminated during discussions related to the Holocaust in Albania, such as "Albania was the only country whose Jewish population increased during the war" or "100% of Albanian Jews were saved". Not true. 99% of Danish Jews survived the war, as did most Jews in Bulgaria-proper. Many Jews sought refuge in the neutral countries of Sweden, Switzerland and Spain, and those countries' Jewish populations increased as a result. Five Jews from Albania-proper were killed during the Holocaust (thus, the 100% figure is bogus even if one is referring only to present-day Albania, not Kosovo, Macedonia, etc.) If we can agree to this basic framework, and not show fanning admiration for King Zog or war criminals such as Xhafer Deva (which I'm unequivocally not accusing anyone of doing, by the way), regardless of their role in saving Jews, then we can begin to expand this article. As for Korce, yes. In reporting what otherwise reliable sources say, like all Wikipedians, I sometimes inadvertently add content that is factually incorrect. If the assertion is indeed incorrect, I suggest you remove it. 23 editor (talk) 15:36, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Deal with for Schwartz, that wasn't me, not my business (this also applies to "Albania was the only country whose Jewish population increased during the war" or "100% of Albanian Jews were saved" -- I didn't add those). Personally I don't hold either of those views by the way.
 * Regarding Deva-- yes he is a war criminal. However as testimony from Jews who survived demonstrated, he was instrumental in thwarting Italian and German attempts to locate them, and survivors are very grateful to him for that. At the same time, it so happens that he was indeed pro-German in terms of foreign policy, and far worse, his views towards Serbs could more or less be called genocidal intent. At the same time he had a "reputation for helping Jews". Well, Hitler was a vegetarian and couldn't stand to see animals suffering. I will never understand these things, but people are complicated individuals, and in the case of Deva, we shouldn't simplify things. By the way Monika Stafa does not "fan admiration" for him either: "Certainly, assertion of the merits of collaborative  governments  in  defense  of  the  Jews  does  not  justify  other actions committed by them, but it merely enables a balanced historiographical analysis. " Calthinus  (talk)  15:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I'm not suggesting anyone here has displayed fawning admiration for Deva. I'm just saying that I don't want to see such sentiments given any credence, since the New York Times piece casts him in a somewhat positive light and provides little to no context regarding his other actions. That's all. 23 editor (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with that completely. In truth I wanted to add a sentence juxtaposing that with what he was doing in Kosovo with regards to the "Slavic" population. However I haven't yet found a source that tries to explain his varying actions-- I would like to.
 * Regarding the rest, I will bring it up on the talk page in a bit. Does one discussion for each section/topic being edited (for "topic" I operationally mean "1-3 paragraphs covering a distinct subject) sound like a good way to do it for you, or would you rather have one thread? Calthinus (talk)  16:09, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's have a separate talk-page section for each of the different topics we are planning to discuss. Re: Deva. It wasn't only Serbs that fell victim to his actions, but Albanians, as well. In Tirana, 86 Albanians suspected of communist sympathies were massacred on his orders (in 1944, I think?) While these killings probably shouldn't be classified as being part of the Holocaust, I find that it is always better to provide more context than less, in all articles, regardless of whether they are Good Articles or Featured Articles. As for "Slavs": during this article's peer review, it was suggested that its scope should be expanded to include non-Jewish victims. I have no opinion one way or the other. Some Wikipedians believe that the term "Holocaust" only applies to Jews, while others quite vociferously argue that it also applies to the persecution of Slavs, Roma, homosexuals, Freemasons, the disabled, etc. If we were to adopt this paradigm, the article would need a very serious overhaul. Thoughts? 23 editor (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Another source we should avoid is Norman Gershman, a photographer and ex-businessman who wrote a picture essay about the rescue of Albanian Jews (again, not a historian, political scientist, journalist, etc.) 23 editor (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I can not go through all the discussion above but it is well-sourced that Albania saved virtually all Jews, and their number increased during the war. If so happened in Denmark and Bulgaria too, the article can be modified to Albania, like Denmark and Bulgaria.... The sources used are reliable, and are supported by additional ones. The article can not focus only on the crimes, and should not create massive content disputes, because then the GA status would be lost quickly. By the way, where did the 100% figure come from? Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * On Deva, the article is not a forum for personal views on him. Everything, considered good or bad, should be on the article. Otherwise, where is the point of the GA status? Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:55, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We are not inserting our personal views regarding Deva into the article. No one even suggested as much. Calthinus and I are in complete agreement here. As for the 100% meme, it originates from a pamphlet published by a (now-deceased) New York attorney named Harvey Sarner, a former business colleague of congressman Joe DioGuardi (who extensively lobbied the US Congress and White House on behalf of Kosovo's Albanians during the 1990s). Yes, the vast majority of Jews in Albania-proper survived the war. Some sources say one family of five people was killed and another says two families of eight (overall, 5–8 Jews killed in Albania-proper during the Holocaust). Since Albania-proper annexed a half-dozen neighboring territories and administered them as its own, the extent of the Holocaust in Albania extends to those areas as well, hence the 600 killed in Greater Albania. 23 editor (talk) 19:33, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Do not insert nonsense here. I did not write that 100% of Jews were saved. There are zillions of sources highlighting the fact that virtually all Jews in Albania were saved. Hence, it has its own place in the article. On Deva, you started to say things about being a criminal. What is the point of that? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:38, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Quit straw-manning me, would you? No one ever said you said 100% of Jews were saved. If you read the exchange above (which, by your own admission, you didn't), you would see that I was laying out the groundwork for how to proceed expanding the article. There, I happened to say that "100%" is a common trope that doesn't have any basis in fact, not that Ktrimi991 was espousing that view . As for Deva, Calthinus and I both agreed that it would be best to provide nuance by mentioning Deva's war crimes against Serbs and anti-fascist Albanians in the article, otherwise readers would get the impression that he was a philanthropic angel, which he certainly wasn't. 23 editor (talk) 19:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Do not redirect the discussion. Talking about "the 100% meme" instead of giving a rationale for deleting well-known content on the saving of almost all Jews in Albania is not constructive. As I said before, that part can be modified to "Albania saved virtually all Jews. The number of them increased during the war". On Deva, it depends on what content it is. Maybe a small sentence, as the article is not about Serbs or Albanians who were murdered by Deva. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:51, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hilarious! The discussion was going great until you showed up. 23 editor (talk) 23:03, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I will make discussions for each proposed change later. I think that· will be a more productive way to begin to identify common ground on a difficult topic like this. Let's start with the easier stuff. Calthinus (talk)  21:57, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Re the paradigm issue-- this is a really sensitive issue especially right now as it has relevance to ongoing Polish-Jewish history disputes that have entered the political realm. That aside, my personal view is that for our purposes the Holocaust generally refers to the persecution of Jews with the aim at global extinction, by the Germans. Sometimes other things are included-- disabled people and homosexuals were chucked in because I guess Nazis found that uhh… convenient. Regarding Roma the jury is out but many people consider Porajmos a separate but parallel phenomenon. Regarding Slavs and communists and etc, there are textbooks that include them-- some people think it's more "progressive" to be as inclusive as possible (this is especially valid regarding discourse regarding LGBT people during the time period), but really they did not face the same ordeal, as despite "Lebensraum" and the genocide committed by the Ustasha state (which the Nazis often did not seem to approve of), the goal of Nazism was not the global annihilation of Slavs (communists and other political opponents likewise were not targeted for extinction as part of this eugenics-inspired sick ordeal). These things are always going to be controversial and emotional as there will be those (typically Poles, Serbs, etc.) who feel their nations are wronged by inclusion and others who feel that the inclusion covers up important facts and is misrepresentative. For our purposes in Albania, sources do not seem to talk about how the Roma population was treated (it seems to have survived largely intact), and it's pretty clear that Jews and Serbs were treated quite differently, so there's really no reason to lump them in together. And regarding homosexuals, disabled people etc... really I have never seen any discussion about this regarding Albania, or Kosovo. Imo. Calthinus  (talk)  06:00, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

For reference -- version differences prior to this discussion
Can be seen here : [] Calthinus  (talk)  11:47, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Removal of post-communist era stuff
Done by myself before the mass revert. I maintain this stuff is not relevant to the page topic, beginning 47 years after the Holocaust ended. It has a place on pages like History of Jews in Albania. Not here. Calthinus (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I can reluctantly and tentatively agree to removing everything past "Few Jews remained in Kosovo and many emigrated to Israel during the communist period." 23 editor (talk) 14:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Deal. ✅ --Calthinus (talk)  17:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Research on the role of Zogu and Bernstein in Jewish immigration to Albania
Added by myself before the mass revert. Main source was Fischer's paper, some references also to some other sources used supplement. Most narratives about what happened in Albania will include this, as it is highly relevant not only to how the Jewish population in Albania increased, but also Albania's role as a successful escape route for estimates ranging from 600 to 3000 Jews who ultimately made it to safety in the Americas and Turkey. This is highly relevant material and the page is not complete without it, frankly. Calthinus (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I have no particular objections to what you've summarized here. A copy-edit for flow, style and MOS considerations is required. I'm not sure if your intended edits included this, but while in exile, Zog offered to settle 200,000 Jewish refugees in Albania in 1944. Of course, he had no power whatsoever, and thus no authority to do so, but it certainly does sound like an important addition. The historian Christian Gerlach does say that making such a statement was a "tactical" decision, possibly casting doubt on Zog's motives? 23 editor (talk) 15:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Fischer discusses this too, including the view about the self-interest present. His view is that although Zogu was helping himself, his long record with regards to the Jewish community must be considered, and the fact that his policy of increasing religious diversity in Albania had roots in Albanian political thought for decades that aimed for a multifaith nation and the neutralization of religious cleavages. Additionally (for discussion sake-- this is me, not Fischer, so can't go on the page obv), a large Jewish population who had been saved by Zog would of course be loyal to him, thus helping him stabilize the country and his rule in such a situation as his return to the throne, a situation in which he would likely have to deal with both heavy communist and non-communist opposition. Thus, it is as difficult with this proposal as his earlier behavior to tease out the influences of Albanian political thought from altruism -- of course it is quite possible both may have been present. Calthinus  (talk)  18:00, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I came across it some years ago and it was probably in Fischer. Anyway, i forgot which place he had in mind so in these sources did Zog want to settle Jews in the then sparsely populated plain of Myzeqe (as during the interwar period it was being drained from its swampland so use could be made of its fertile soil)?Resnjari (talk) 21:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Fischer doesn't mention Myzeqe afaik (however I don't have access to one page -- 100) . However Myzeqe was where many Jews were hidden. I suppose it's possible Myzeqe was the idea-- after all that is what Hoxha did with the Cham Albanians. Aside from that Jews weren't really interested in his idea afaik, I mean why would we settle in some land totally unknown to us in the unstable Balkans, when we can have the homeland, a state of our own for once, with millions of Jews already there? At least it might be less humid than Uganda I suppose or Madagascar... Calthinus  (talk)  23:34, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Zog is an interesting character. Whatever his motives his proposal is a marked departure from the antisemitism of the time. Calthinus, keep the good work up, these proposed adds are quite informative. Best.Resnjari (talk) 00:06, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

PROPOSED MAINSPACE TEXT FOR THIS SECTION (as per this revision: []) (starting in the middle of the second paragraph)

Added into the second paragraph

New third paragraph:

(additionally some material was moved from here into the main section, as it belonged there and would make this one less bloated -- I assume that's not controversial?) Calthinus  (talk)  23:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion on the (complicated) role of Deva by Stafa and others, juxtaposing the good and the obviously not so good
I believe 23 editor and myself have come to an agreement on this, that Deva's refusals to turn over information on Jews hiding in Albania is significant but should be juxtaposed with his other activities in Kosovo so we can properly portray the complex reality rather than having it look like the page is "fawning admiration" for a man who happened to also be a war criminal. Calthinus (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Like I said, we're in complete agreement here. As with the other points, I would like for any content regarding Deva to be brought to the talk page. Shouldn't be any objections on my part, but maybe Ktrimi991 will have some. Who knows. 23 editor (talk) 14:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * In progress in my sandbox. Will return to it later. Calthinus (talk)  18:47, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Extended coverage of the Italian period and Jewish population movements during that time
Fischer and other RS were used here by me before the big revert. Some major aspects included the identification of the three distinct "waves" of Jewish immigration to Albania during the Italian period, analysis of hte half-hearted (or even "zero-hearted") Albanian implementation of Italian commands, episodes where the Italians themselves were involved in sheltering (to be added), how it became hard for Jews to leave but not to enter Albania during this period, et cetera. Additionally there is material that can be added about Jewish life during the Italian period-- holidays were still celebrated in public, and Jews entering Albania got support also from Jews in Bulgaria, Italy, Spain and Switzerland. I find this material to be relevant and useful to readers. Calthinus (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with Fischer. Leading authority on WWII Albanian history. It doesn't look like I will have any objections to any of what Fischer is saying. Again, please bring specific assertions to the talk page beforehand so I can copy-edit and Ktrimi991 can skim for possible content objections. 23 editor (talk) 14:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, here are the changes I did.

First paragraph-- added this sentence-- I assume not controversial?:

Second paragraph -- removed the Mojzes quote about the few Jews who were killed by brigands, placed it into the third paragraph with a wording connecting it to its context.

Third paragraph-- added, partially by moving material that was clogging the Background section here, partly from new info mainly from Fischer:

I didn't touch the fourth paragraph in the 1939-1943 section. Calthinus (talk)  12:54, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * it seems there are no objections here after months. I'll be readding it--it's valuable and informative-- in a bit, hopefully that's good.--Calthinus (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Removal of generalization regarding Kosovar Albanians being more xenophobic
"Kosovo Albanians were generally less hospitable to Jews than their counterparts in Albania." -- frankly I don't find this statement helpful. Kosovo was a different situation in many ways, and many Kosovar Albanians did help Jews. While it may be true that having experienced foreign rule they might have been more "xenophobic" frankly I dislike trying to explain all the differences in what happened with this. And of course, there were many other differences, and so I don't think giving this one precedence is helpful at the least. Calthinus (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that the wording is ham-fisted, but the general sentiment should be retained. Perez talks about the stark difference in survival rates between Jews from Kosovo and those from Albania-proper. He says that little scholarly research has been done to figure out why this was the case (this was in 2013; things may have changed). The Albanian-Serb conflict over Kosovo making Kosovo Albanians wary of outsiders is certainly one hypothesis. If there are academics who dispute this sentiment, we should contrast and compare. 23 editor (talk) 14:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It looks like Perez takes the theory into consideration, but doesn't dismiss or endorse it one way or the other. That's two scholars that have raised this hypothesis. 23 editor (talk) 15:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I confess I may not be strictly following policy here -- though I haven't done the good old POV warrior hunt for a policy that fits my purposes :). To be frankly honest the reason it bothers me (yes I really WP:DONTLIKEIT, and I know this technically policy but...) is that it implies some sort of mass guilt, and does so in a way that is totally unfalsifiable. Which frankly seems unethical to me (and shocking to see coming from a Holocaust scholar like Mojzes). 60% of Jews died in German occupied Kosovo with the (Greater) Albanian quisling regime in place, well 90% of Jews died in German occupied Serbia with help from its Serb quisling regime, but is that because of some fundamental difference between the people having a more or less "hospitable" nature? I don't feel comfortable saying something like that. Guilt belongs with the specific killers, their superiors, and the collaborators, and the ideologies that led them in that direction. Not whole peoples. -- Calthinus (talk)  12:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Calthinus, I agree with your statement. Edmond Malaj has written about this issue (Jewish Intelectuals, who lived in Albania, page 160), and concludes that the most important contribution to the survival of Jews in Albania was given by the Albanian government/officials, not by ordinary people. He also notes that the Albanian government protested the arrests of Jews by Germans. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That is quite an interesting take, Calthinus. I don't think it implies mass guilt per se, but the wording can significantly impact to what extent this is the case. The more neutral and objective the tone, the less likely it is that Mojzes and Perez will misconstrued. The main reason I disagree as to why the hypothesis does not imply mass guilt is because the fact that most Jews in Albania-proper were saved shouldn't imply mass merit either. Try this thought experiment: The infinitesimally small number of Jews in Greater Albania (statistical error levels) makes it impossible to attribute mass guilt or mass merit to the Albanians; there simply weren't enough individuals saving and being saved to determine how these events reflect on Albanian society as a whole. If there were 500,000 Jews in Albania-proper and 99.8% were saved, then we could delve into discussions of mass merit. Likewise, if there were 500,000 Jews in Kosovo and 95% of them were killed, then we could delve into discussions of mass guilt. It would be a double standard to espouse Albanian Albanians' mass merit by pushing the besa hypothesis and whitewashing the Kosovo Albanians' (hypothetical) mass guilt by obfuscating discussion of the two group's different historical circumstances. Like I said, I don't believe in the mass guilt/mass merit narrative (if ever there was one). This is just for discussion's sake. Including academic views and hypotheses should not imply mass guilt or mass merit; it should merely reflect the findings and opinions of individual academics. 23 editor (talk) 15:41, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Well I personally agree the whole "besa" harping thing goes too far (now there is a new theory that it's because some Albanians are Muslim...). But at least the existence of the besa in Albanian highland society is verifiable -- poll data on how Kosovars felt about foreignors in 1940 is not. Of course there are some other serious issues the "besa" hypothesis has, like the fact that many of hte places Jews were hiding in Albania, such as northern Myzeqe, did not observe the besa in the first place. Monika Stafa also thinks the besa hypothesis is overblown -- actually her paper more or less argues against it, here's the abstract: The Albanian traditional historiography... sustained an almost folk explication that everything happened owing to the Albanian traditional hospitality, faith and generosity. This view is also embedded in the studies of the foreigners. The Albanian virtue as a popular quality in front of a racial philosophical doctrine elaborated in an almost mathematical way, namely the Hitlerian doctrine of the “final solution”, does not suffice. Stafa instead attributes the survival and even growth of the Jewish population in Albania to a combination of Italian inaction and defiance of first Italians then Germans by the Albanian collaborationist authorities. Thus, what happened in Albania resembled what happened in Bulgaria, with the exception of how the "new" territories were treated. Other sources like Fischer also establish the relevance of other actors, such as Zogu and Bernstein, in what happened. One can only speculate how the besa hypothesis came to be so prominent: Communists would do everything to avoid giving credit to Zogu let alone "fascists", while Westerners happily lapped up this quasi-Orientalist almost fairytale portrayal of Albanian culture. My idea, as I mentioned before, was an Analysis section -- I want to move all the besa stuff there, and put the contrary opinions (Stafa for one) next to it, and I really don't think this unfalsifiable "Kosovars are xenophobes" thing is necessary. What do you think of this? Calthinus  (talk)  17:04, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Does Stafa (or any other academic, for that matter) challenge the hypothesis mentioned by Mojzes and Perez? If so, that should absolutely be included. Interesting that you mention Orientalism. I do wonder what Edward Said would have thought of the rhetoric were he still alive. It would have made a very, very interesting addition to the article. Based on what you've said, it sounds like Stafa has produced a solid piece of scholarly work. I'll have to read it. 23 editor (talk) 17:30, 23 June 2018 (UTC)NOt
 * Stafa is great, imo. Well Ed Said was a genius but I have mixed feelings; Maria Todorova's view could be interesting. Contrary evidence is offered by some, not direct refutation as far as I've seen (it's not falsifiable anyways...). Compromise proposal - move Mojzes' theory into the "Analysis" section which is also where the besa stuff will be moved to. Agree?  Calthinus  (talk)  14:46, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, the "Muslim hypothesis". What exactly is that? I'm curious. Could you explain? Perhaps that could be added to the Analysis section, as well. 23 editor (talk) 16:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Not so much a hypothesis as I haven't (yet) seen it published in something academic. It shows up on feelgood videos on Youtube and articles in some newspapers -- the latter might be called RS though it is watered down in those. It's not very interesting to me, I hold a dim opinion of it, it basically states that Albanians rescued Jews because they were Muslims who read the Quran and understood the importance of being a good person (example there is some youtube video I watched maybe two years ago, an elderly Jewish guy saying it wasn't just besa or the kanun but also the Quran and a clip of some elderly Albanian guy later in the video saying as much too-- not very scholarly, very folksy and feel-good). This is basically in the context of right-left quarrels over the nature of Islam, as well as (typically left-wing) Jews/Israelis who eagerly lap up stories about Muslims in the world who don't hate their guts (see also Kurds and especially Azeris, probably a bit more justified here as Albania doesn't have the same sort of relationship with Israel in real life as Azerbaijan does). I can see the value in this regarding the whole Islam discourse in the West (and Israel) but for wiki I guess I don't think it's appropriate? Idk. I don't see similar recountings of how Christian values or secular humanist values led other people to save Jews. And it also feels weird to see 6 million deaths used as an advertisement for a belief system. Imo. Calthinus (talk)  19:00, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

More extended discussion on what happened in Kosovo with the arrival of the Germans
Fischer has some relevant stuff. Not added yet but I intended to. The Germans got the lists in Kosovo (unlike Albania where their attempts were thwarted), despite the resistance of Albanian authorities in Prishtina who provided false documents (most notably was Preng Uli, secretary of the Prishtina municipality-- whose efforts were apparently recorded in Italian documents). Most Jews were ultimately returned to Belgrade where they were executed. Before then we had the classic stuff -- the Jews of Kosovo were made to wear white armbands with "Jud" written in black letters, identity cards stamped with a red "J", etc. Calthinus  (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Nothing contentious here. In order to avoid further back-and-forth reverts, and as a courtesy to readers and fellow users, lets bring these large content additions to the talk page beforehand. I'll copy-edit and convert to sfn (if necessary). Also, can we avoid the long quotes? 23 editor (talk) 14:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure. Will post in a bit. Calthinus  (talk)  17:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Regional comparisons
Added by Ktrimi991-- Albania's very high survival rate, Kosovo's 62% rate versus 10-12% in Serbia and Macedonia. While there may be some doubts about hte specific source used, I have seen this comparison elsewhere I believe. I support it staying here (perhaps with source replacement) and would expand the comparison as we do have sources for that -- Fischer (and to an extent Stafa) compare "Greater Albania" to "Greater Bulgaria" and "Albania proper" and "Bulgaria proper" can also be compared. Fischer does so on page 98. The best place for this would be an "analysis" section (I had planned to create this in time, once I was done expanding hte essential parts of the page which were, in my view, lacking). Calthinus (talk)  05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * An analysis section would be a great idea. Re: survival rates. Again, let's please use WP:RS. No Schwartz, Sarner, Gershman, etc. If indeed there is a reliable source that says 62%, 12% and 10%, fantastic. 23 editor (talk) 14:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I recall seeing the comparison elsewhere, will try to find it. Bulgaria and Albania are also compared in some sources here, including Fischer (briefly) and Stafa. Calthinus  (talk)  17:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Post-war commemorations
In my opinion, the subject of post-war commemorations is likely to be the least contentious aspect of this article. I have no qualms about reinserting it, provided that it is sfn referenced and adheres to the MOS. I'll re-add the bits that were removed in the mass-revert myself, with a copy-edit and sfn conversion, of course. 23 editor (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, great. Calthinus  (talk)  17:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

German tenacity
Perez 2013, p. 27 writes that the Germans did not pursue Jews in Albania-proper as vigorously as they did in other corners of Europe. Does anyone know if there are other scholars who write of something similar, and if there are, would anyone object to this addition? 23 editor (talk) 15:12, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I have seen other discussion of this, yeah, Fischer gives some, etc. Some explanations occur foreseeing the end of the war, frustration with obstruction of their efforts by Albanian authorities (with regards to Jews they didn't get the list; obstruction occurred in other places too), and desire to keep Albanian collabos on their side leading them to avoid actions that would like they were infringing too much on Albanian autonomy. Calthinus  (talk)  17:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Map of concentration and interment camps
There were a number of concentration/interment camps in Albania during the war, mostly Italian-run. Would anyone object to including a map of these facilities, based on info provided by The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos? 23 editor (talk) 15:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure. "Concentration camp" means gas chambers for many people, so internment camp is a better word (that being said some Jewish American intellectuals in the states are using "concentration camp" to describe the detention 'tents' migrant kids forcibly separated by their mothers in the US were placed in, I admit). Calthinus  (talk)  17:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I can think of quite a few concentration camps that didn't have gas chambers (see NDH). As a general rule, I think we should call such facilities concentration camps if the sources refer to them as such. If the terminology differs from source to source, we can navigate around this by referring to them simply as "camps" in certain instances in the text. 23 editor (talk) 19:46, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * But those of the NDH were still extermination camps were they not? Our page Concentration camp mentions this too -- for many people it implies an extermination camp even though that has not been it's only (or indeed original) historical usage. Calthinus (talk)  23:30, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Deaths in Albania-proper
This source says a family of six from Albania-proper were discovered by the Germans, deported and five killed. Perez says two families were deported from Albania-proper. I recall one source saying two families were deported and eight Jews killed overall in Albania-proper, implying that three members of this second family perished, as well. Can't seem to remember what the source was, but I will look. 23 editor (talk) 15:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Legacy section
I forgot I added this. I split off part of the Aftermath section and into a "Legacy" section where I thought it better belonged, and added stuff about Holocaust remembrance in Kosovo, the airlift of Kosovar Albanian refugees done on Remembrance Day (symbolism, also that at least one of the Righteous Among Nations was among those being rescued), and furthermore discussion of how public discourse remembers the Holocaust in Albania (and Kosovo, I suppose?) would be good to add to the section. Here is the section as I left it -- feel free to fix the refs, and let me know if there are any issues? Calthinus (talk)  12:41, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

The section:

}
 * Edmond Malaj has written about the benefits of Albanian population from Jews during the Holocaust period. They carried studies on the climate of Albania, its geology, helped Albanian economy and so on. It is important to add some content based on Malaj on this issue bacause it was not only Jews who benefited from situation in Albania. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:13, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Procedural discussion
I'll post the proposed text for the various areas in a bit. Like half a day or tomorrow. Calthinus (talk)  17:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

In progress : Analysis section
Here's what I have so far. might want to add the geological factors as mentioned by Malaj I suppose? Some of it may need trimming or what not or at least pictures (presumably of relevant historical figures -- Neubacher, Bernstein, Deva, idk) so it is not so much of a text blob. I mostly just worked with Mojzes, Stafa and Fischer (and Mojzes not that much) so more perspectives are welcome as the point of the section is to compare and contrast the views not advance one. is also welcome to give input, I know you're watching some of this. --Calthinus (talk) 19:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Section as of now:


 * , would you mind if I edited what you've presented here? Feel free to revert. 23 editor (talk) 17:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind but it would very likely make the history of this talk page and keeping track of different version much more messy. You can edit it in my sandbox here. Hopefully that works for you? --Calthinus (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * To be honest actually, I don't care -- feel free to edit here. Sandbox is just the thing I'm used to doing with editors on other pages rather than talk pages (seems to be standard in some other editing areas I think maybe), but really it makes no difference and I'm curious to see what you have for here. Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 05:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Starting with my edits now. Feel free to discuss and/or revert. 23 editor (talk) 14:20, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Nazism propaganda
The whole article is a lie and vandalism. There are no references. Everything what’s written in the article are nazistic propaganda and the whole Article should be removed, or proofed with the real documents that everything was so like it’s written! Svesamizjela (talk) 08:53, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect article name
This article name, or content, is confusing, also for a well-informed in the Albania-related subject. Due to its content, or preamble, then this article should be renamed to The Holocaust in Greater Albania, if we follow the same logic discussed above. I would prefer, for the sake of not misleading the reader, to separate the content, among others the part about Kosovo into a own article, The Holocaust in Kosovo, and to stop confusing any further The Holocaust in Albania with a Greater Albania-mishmash. --Vannucci (talk) 13:13, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah I argued for this before and Amanuensis and Peacemaker were not down. I do agree however there were fundamental differences between Kosovo and Albania though -- analogous to Macedonia and Bulgaria. --Calthinus (talk) 23:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The article name is still incorrect and confusing, and with the experience I have (with the Albania-related subject here at English-language Wikipedia, many years ago), I see it as an attempt to defame the fact that the people of Albania saved Jewish people (and there is a lot of news about it in the global media). It is sad that there is no article about The Holocaust in Kosovo, which it deserves to inform the readers, instead of inventing The Holocaust in Albania by mixing it with Greater Albania, a puppet state, (hence why The Holocaust in Greater Albania would be more clearer then). --Vannucci (talk) 18:17, 12 February 2021 (UTC)


 * It is ahistorical to define a Holocaust article using the boundaries of a later geopolitical entity (or a vaguely defined historical entity), rather than the geopolitical entity that existed at the time of the Holocaust. That is because, even with regional differences within the entity that existed at the time, it had the same government, and in general the same policies and actions applied throughout. The scope of this article is clearly the Holocaust within the borders of the Albanian entity which existed between the occupation of Yugoslavia and late 1944. Suggesting that an article title defames a people is complete nonsense, it just reflects article title policy. Splitting off The Holocaust in Kosovo would therefore be ahistorical, if there were regional differences with the expanded wartime Albania, they should be described here in a separate section. "Greater Albania" wasn't the name of the client state/protectorate/puppet state, it was, for most of this period (1941–1943), the Albanian Kingdom, and its common name during that period was "Albania", not "Greater Albania". If you think it should be moved, initiate an WP:RM. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The article mention Greater Albania fifteen times, and is also mentioned in the beginning. I'm not going to engage in endless pseudodiscussions. --Vannucci (talk) 13:18, 13 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Your choice, but that is how consensus is achieved on Wikipedia. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

A question about Western Vardar Macedonia?
The article mentions that in total “Approximately 600 Jews were killed in all the Albanian-controlled territories over the course of the Holocaust”. The article also mentions that in total, “About 210 Kosovo Jews were killed”. It also says that “Virtually all of the native Jews in Albania-proper survived the Holocaust, as did almost all the foreign Jews who sought refuge there.”

This makes me want to know under what circumstances the remaining 390 Albanian Jews in the total count were killed. The only other relevant area with information I could find in the article was this “The Jewish community in western Macedonia, which had remained untouched under Italian occupation, was targeted and several groups of Jews were dispatched to extermination camps. Their property and belongings were later expropriated by multiple institutions, as well as by individuals”. However, the source given didn’t seem to give any numbers, or even specially mention the Italian/Albanian annex territory in Western Vardar Macedonia (although it’s possible it is mentions somewhere on the full book I don’t have access to.

I assume this means that the majority of the remaining approx. 390 Jewish deaths left unaccounted for here were mostly from this region of Macedonia? If so, this seems like it’s an area of study in the Holocaust that needs more academic research, since I haven’t been able to find any articles or works about this region - and I haven’t been able to find even the pure numbers for this regions online (although I’m sure someone with academic access and experience could)


 * To be honest I have always found this part a bit suspicious. "Western Vardar Macedonia" did not exactly have tons of Jews. Here is pop-stat mashke . Hopefully I"m not missing something. Note that Skop(l)je, Kumanovo and Bitol(j)(a) were not included in the Albanian zone. In Ohrid okrug total, we have ... 10. Kichevo... 0. Prespa ... 0. Tetovo... 0... Jews in North/Vardar Macedonia lived in major cities -- as elsewhere in the Balkans. None of these were included in the Albanian/Italian zone.--Calthinus (talk) 03:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Donald McKale, citing Benz, writes that 591 Jews were deported from (Greater) Albania, most of whom were refugees from other European countries, which may account for the hundreds of Jews outside Albania proper and Kosovo. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 18:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This seems more likely. But our mainspace prose does say that 600 Jews were killed in Albanian-controlled territories (rather, ) -- not after being deported from them. --Calthinus (talk) 18:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Then again, Peter Hayes writes that 591 were killed outright in Greater Albania. Whatever the case may be, including Jews deported and later killed elsewhere in the death tolls of their countries of origin appears to be standard practice. For example, the commonly cited figures of 14,500 Holocaust fatalities in Serbia and 32,000 in Croatia includes hundreds (and in the case of Croatia, thousands) of Jews killed in extermination camps in the Reich. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:55, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In all three cases then -- Serbia and Croatia too -- it might be helpful to make this clear.--Calthinus (talk) 17:12, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

On this topic, I also found this quote; “That month, Jews were interned by the Italians at a camp in Pristina.[27] Though they feared that they would be handed over to the Germans, the camp's Italian commander promised that this would never happen. On 14 March 1942, the Italians blockaded the camp and arrested the Jews that had been detained there.[23] Fifty-one were handed over to the Germans.[24] They were subsequently transported to the Sajmište concentration camp, in the Independent State of Croatia, and killed.”

If I had to guess, what most likely is that 1. The 600 figure is all of the Jews in Albanian, and 2. The remaining number is a figure including either Jews arrested individually, and those killed cross the border/making the journey trying to get into Albania (like in this quote, which unfortunately does not have figures “ When Jews were found crossing the border, they were usually released by the Albanian authorities to find shelter among local families.[25] On some occasions, they were robbed and killed.”)

According to, P. 387 - The 2,000 total Jewish refugees who settled in Albania came in two waves of 1,000. The first was from 1939-1943, who had smuggled their way into Albania from other parts of Europe through an underground network. The second was in Feb-March 1943, during the weeks preceding the transport of Jews in Bulgarian occupied territories extermination camps. Italy asked for all Jews with connections with Italy and Albania to be allowed immigration rights from these territories, and 1,000 managed to reach Albania before the deportations started in March (it’s possible some of these 1,000 refugees left Albania, and therefore get counted in the “transit” numbers instead “settled”. If that is the case, the deficit to reach 2,000 presumably gets made up by refugees arriving March 1943 - May 1945, and the situation concerning the numbers isn’t really effected)

We also know the most common number for the post-war Jewish Albanian population was ~1,800. This is the part I’m most unsure about, since 1. it’s possible this loss could be attributed in other ways, 2. I have found a source saying 2,000, and 3. it’s possible the 600 number wasn’t even including refugees in transit who perished in Albania. But assuming these numbers ARE correct, we can break down how many people from the remaining figure were arrested in Albania - and how many presumably died before they could be counted as “settled”. Civilian casualties of war, or even deaths in combat assuming some refugees joined partisan units, are also another possibility (although this would only apply to the 2,000 counted as settled in Albania)

————- Assuming that is the case, the breakdown of Jews killed in Greater Albania falls like this:

— March 1942 Kosovo transport: 51 killed

— June 1944 Kosovo transport: 210 killed

— Jews in former Yugoslav-Macedonian territory: 10 killed

— Jewish refugees settled in Albania arrested and deported/killed, or civilian/armed casualties of war - individual arrests and circumstances, no mass roundup or internment of Jews: 200 killed

— Jewish refugees killed while trying to cross the border into Albania: 130 killed

————-

--BorderRegions (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is plausible. Hopefully in the future this can be cleaned up with RS.--Calthinus (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2020 (UTC)