Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2018/April

Volksdeutsche from Reich?
Weren't they rather Reichsdeutsche?Xx236 (talk) 13:47, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for noticing. Sentence refactored to read: Following the invasion of 1939, additional 1,180,000 German speakers came to occupied Poland either from the Reich or from the east with little to lose (Volksdeutsche).[217] ✅  Poeticbent  talk 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

A number of problems

 * What was Poland? Was Vilnius or Grodno Poland?
 * What do you mean by this? 'Grodno' is not mentioned by name in the main copy, only in references? Vilnius is mentioned in section "German-inspired massacres" (quote): In the lead-up to the establishment of the Wilno Ghetto in the fifth largest city of prewar Poland and a provincial capital (Wilno), now Vilnius, Lithuania)[227] ... Sounds fine, so — what would you like me to do here?  Poeticbent  talk 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * My question is fundamental, what is "The Holocaust in Poland"? Was Grodno Poland or not? Jews and Poles were murdered in Ponary/Paneriai by Lithuanian volunteers, was it a part of the Holocaust in Poland?Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Quite many Jews were transported from Western Europe to ghettos and camps in occupied Poland. Some of them were later transported to another ghettos or camps. Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * What part of the article are you referring to? Please provide citation, or at least the location which is of interest to you. Thanks,  Poeticbent  talk 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The Holocaust in Poland was a part of the Holocaust in general, both Jewish victims and the executors were moved from place to place. Many Western Jews died in Łódź ghetto (which was named Litzmannstadt ghetto, not Łódź). Was it a part of the Holocaust in Poland? Hundreds of thousands Jews were transported to Auschwitz from Greece, Slovakia, Hungary, Western Europe. Was it a part of the Holocaust in Poland? Some Polish Jews died in camps in Germany. Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The name The Holocaust in Poland suggests there existed Poland like there existed Hungary or Norway. Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a meta question that can only be answered by writing a whole manual on the topic of sovereignty. I will look into the foreign deportations' question, which is the only thing I can do.  Poeticbent  talk 18:45, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I don't understand which problem you address. The definition of "Poland" is basic to discuss the "Holocaust in Poland". Apparently many Western readers, journalists ignore basic facts - the destruction of Polish state, annexations, German administration (districts, gaus). German administration in GG was both civilian (Hans Frank controlled by German government) and SS/police (controlled by Himmler). Xx236 (talk) 08:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Poland as a country or region is distinct from Poland the state - and in territorial extent is different from the modern state (which has moved to the West - taking German lands on the one hand, and losing land to the USSR). In terms of Jewish history - much of greater Poland - contained in the Pale of Settlement - is often referred to as Poland. The brief spurt of Polish independence to the Jewish destruction in the Holocaust was fairly irrelevant. (this often causes issues when reconciling a source that says Poland with modern day geography). In any event - The region itself is distinct from the state. If Britain were to have been occupied - we still would have referred to events in Britain or the British Isles.Icewhiz (talk) 09:47, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Part of Britain was ooccupied. Am I the only expert here?Xx236 (talk) 12:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * May someone explain me the above text? Xx236 (talk) 12:49, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Allow me to try. Your repeated attempts, over many years, to cloud the issue by asking for a definition of Poland are a waste of everybody's time—including yours. When Poland was partitioned, the Polish state ceased to exist, but the history of Poland didn't suddenly cease, only to begin again with the reestablishment of a Polish state after World War I. Likewise, when the Polish state ceased to exist after the start of World War II, Poland did not cease to exist. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:08, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I meant - which area do we assume to be "Poland" during WWII. Vilnius area is described both here and in The Holocaust in Lithuania. The Holocaust in Ukraine is allegedly about Reichskommissariat Ukraine, but it mentiones also Lviv and Lvov, which is the same place.Xx236 (talk) 13:23, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not see any problem. Both cities belonged to prewar Poland. Therefore, they are correctly included on this page. But they also should be included to pages about The Holocaust in Lithuania and in Ukraine because they were a part of Holocaust on these territories. Same thing can be noted on any number of pages if it is logically and historically connected to subjects of these pages. My very best wishes (talk) 04:20, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Some Polish Jews were deported to places outside Poland, eg. to camps in Germany. Some of them died there, some survived. Is it the part of the subject?Xx236 (talk) 12:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Next time, please start a new thread, because responding to old threads is counterproductive. All nations have their own national mythologies, with or without sovereignty. Jews were citizens of prewar sovereign states including the Second Republic and the USSR, but they were targeted in the Holocaust as one 'race'. The Poles were also targeted as one 'race' based on language, ancestry and culture, regardless of where they lived (in the Holocaust, but also during the Polish Operation of the NKVD and later). At the conclusion of World War II millions of people were either moved or expelled. As a result, we have two separate histories to contend with: the history of the land, on the one hand, and the history of the peoples, on the other.  Poeticbent  talk 18:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't mean any mythology, I'm asking if this page should inform about Polish Jews deported by Nazis outside Poland, eg. when Auschwitz prisoners were evacuated in 1945.Xx236 (talk) 06:13, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Please explain
What is the connection of the phrase "At that time, Wilno had only a small Lithuanian-speaking minority of about 6 percent of the city's population" with the Ponary massacre?Xx236 (talk) 08:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * This would explain why this present day Lithuania locale was actually Polish (part of the second Polish republic and demographically Polish).Icewhiz (talk) 10:15, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The subject of this page is the Holocaust, not ethnicity of this present day Lithuania locale. The murderers were mostly Lithuanian and at least one thousand of victims were ethnic Poles - local leaders, underground activists. Eyewitnesses who documented the crimes were Polish - Kazimierz Sakowicz and Józef Mackiewicz.  Xx236 (talk) 12:31, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The new reference, you brought (above link): Prof. Piotr Niwiński from University of Gdańsk (2011) Ponary, Institute of National Remembrance with Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Poland); results in yet another problem. In our article, the reference used is: Müller, Jan-Werner (2002), Memory and Power in Post-War Europe: Studies in the Presence of the Past. Cambridge University Press. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-521-00070-3. Chapter: Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine, 1939–1999 by Timothy Snyder, section "The Transfer of Vilnius". — But page 47 is not in the Google Books' preview, therefore the information cannot be confirmed now as claimed by Wikipedia (quote): "Wilno (Vilnius) had only a small Lithuanian-speaking minority of about 6 percent of the city's population." Meanwhile, the statistics offered by Niwiński's are very different (quote from page 4 in PDF): "The Lithuanians represented less than 0.7 percent of the inhabitants of Vilnius." Not 6 percent... but 0.7 percent. I don't know what to believe. Let's go back to Polish census of 1931, population by city: "Wilno," table 10. Population according to mother tongue, (Commons). Here's what it was in 1931: Grand total – 195,071 inhabitants, including 128,628 Polish speakers, and 1,579 Lithuanian, and 47,523 Yiddish, and 7,073 Hebrew among several other groups. Here's the math: 1579x100/195071=0.8 percent of Lithuanians from 100% data. Would you consider this 0.8 percent original research on my part, or is it OK to be used? Thanks,  Poeticbent  talk  05:40, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think this would be OR, it would however only be correct for 1931 (would have to be attributed as such).Icewhiz (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * This must be a nightmare. The paragraph informs about a Ponary massacre and you discuss ratio of ethnic Lithuanians in the city/region. Xx236 (talk) 06:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The connection between population statistics and the Ponary massacre is direct, because statistics help us define who the victims were. The mass killings began in July 1941; the victims were Polish Jews, in most part. I found another book reference which is equally relevant for our purposes as Niwiński. Shatterzone of Empires edited by Omer Bartov & Eric D. Weitz; chapter "Nationalizing the Borderlands" by Tomas Balkelis, pp. 246–248. This information is critical; by outlining the presence of war refugees according to Lithuanian sources, above and beyond the 10-year-old Polish national census. According to: Note 21. Regina Zepkaite, Vilniaus istorijos atkarpa, 1939–1940 (Vilnius: Mokslas, 1990), 49 – in 1937, the total population of Polish Wilno was 210,000. Take into consideration possible Lithuanian bias also. Upon the Soviet invasion of Poland in September 1939, (now) Vilna was transferred to Lithuania per Soviet–Lithuanian Mutual Assistance Treaty. But refugees from German-occupied western Poland kept arriving, which resulted in humanitarian crisis (quote): According to the Lithuanian Red Cross, in February 1940 these 'newcomers' numbered around 150,000 in the entire Vilnius region, including 83,000 in Vilnius itself.[47] On the eve of the Soviet annexation of Lithuania [June 1940], Vilnius alone was home to around 100,000 newcomers, including 85,000 Poles, 10,000 Jews, and 5,000 Belorussians and Russians.[49] When the killings started, the number of Lithuanian speakers in the city was negligible. I am going to include the new findings and the Niwiński's stats in mainspace. Thanks,  Poeticbent  talk 15:45, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * What is the connection between Auschwitz camp and demographic structure of Oświęcim?
 * "When the killings started, the number of Lithuanian speakers in the city was negligible." - so what? BTW - Lithuania obtained Wilno region in 1939 and a number of Lithuanians moved there (some of them returned after about 20 years).Xx236 (talk) 06:50, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The text should inform not only about Ponary executions but also about Lithuanian Security Police.Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 16 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I find your attitude toward my inquiry condescending, and the rhetorical question regarding the (quote-unquote) connection between Auschwitz complex and the demographic structure of Oświęcim – in reply to my analysis of the Ponary massacre victims by nationality – vacuous and obtuse. Sorry. This article is about the Holocaust in Poland. The persecution of Lithuanian-speaking Jews (including by LSP) as described by Lithuanian historians (Bubnys, 1997) was taking place elsewhere in occupied Lithuania, not in formerly Polish Wilno, where all ~ 22,000 victims were Polish, hence the connection with the article subject. Victims of the Holocaust by bullets at Ponary were not Lithuanian.  Poeticbent  talk 18:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The Lithuanian Security Police acted also in Wilno. Alaksadras Lileikis was the leader. They persecuted Jews and ethnic Poles.
 * At least one thousand of ethnic Poles was murdered in Ponary.
 * It's quite probable that Jews murdered in Ponary were citizens of Poland, but a source is neede rather than OR. Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Not only Jedwabne
There was a series of pogroms in the region in about 20 places. Two pogroms took place probably without any German participation - Szczuczyn, Kolno. Jedwabne is so popular thanks to the JT Gross' book. There are hundreds of sources, eg. IPN two volume report, Anna Bikont's book, "Miasta śmierci". Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Szlachta helped hiding Jews
https://wpolityce.pl/historia/391371-to-zascianki-endeckie-i-onr-owskie-uratowaly-najwiecej-zydow-paradoksy-grabowskiego-i-engelking In some areas of GG there were nationalistic zaścianeks (poor szlachta villages) and peasant villages. The zaścianeks saved more Jews than villages. Unfortunately many Jews ignored the difference. Xx236 (talk) 07:54, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Use of Ewa Kurek as a source
The removal of a source (while retaining the text sourced to a different source) was reverted. To begin with iUniverse is a self-publishing company, which would preclude using this source in most situations - however, surprisingly, this is not the most troubling aspect here. The author Ewa Kurek - while she does have a PhD from the Catholic University of Lublin, she is not particularly well published nor cited (note - there is a better published microbiologist with the same name - plwiki entry - so if you go scholar - you need to filter out all the life sciences hits) - nor does it seem does she hold a significant academic post (as of 2006 - wyborcza article on her views on "Jews having fun in the ghetto" - she held a lecturing position in "Higher School of Skills in Kielce" (which seems to mainly do weekend studies - per the city website). Moving a bit onwards, it seems she has quite interesting views about Jews - and it seems she has been called out on it by Poland Stops Ceremony for Author Accused of Anti-Semitism, NY Times (AP reprint) - not only the Jewish community, but it would seem also Polish government officials (yup - the current government). AP leads off with One, Polish author Ewa Kurek, has claimed that Jews had fun in the ghettos during the German occupation of Poland during World War II when describing her, and notes a response by the Polish government "Andrzej Pawluszek, an adviser to Poland's prime minister, said Wednesday that the award was never a government initiative, but authorities acted to stop an event that would have been divisive.". per Why Was Historian Who Blames Jews For Complicity with Nazis Considered For Humanitarian Prize?, Forward - "“Deeper research” reveals that Kurek says Jewish perfidy is intrinsic to Jewish law and communal organization." (not so deep research - you might see this in the video of her speaking above (which I found prior to this article - containing - “Jews behave like a [herd] of lions in a threatening situation,” Kurek says in a YouTube video. “Lions are said to throw the weakest ones to death, to save the rest. And this is the norm among Jews. We Christians, since the beginning of … time, we have one principle: In the situation of a threat, the strong protect the vulnerable. If someone tells you about a Judeo-Christian civilization, then there is no such thing because this [Judaic] law excludes our civilization.”. Some have noted some subtle aspects to her discourse “Kurek is more subtle than [Holocaust denier] David Irving,” Holocaust scholar Berel Lang told the Forward. “She doesn’t deny the genocide but argues rather that the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system.”. In short - we should definitely not be using her as a source in Wikipedia for WWII history.Icewhiz (talk) 12:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Note
The above wall-of-text is a multiple copy-paste by User:Icewhiz first added to Talk:Irena Sendler on 25 April 2018, with no relevancy to this article content.  Poeticbent  talk 15:33, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have engaged in cleanup of Kurek (thankfully - the red flags around this as a source are quite obvious - and this was used in very few articles). The relevance for this article, as I pointed out in a diff also above - was use of Kurek as source in this article. The paragraph source to her has another supporting reference, so removing this questionable source does not affect this article's text.Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz you copy/pasting same mass wall of text all over. Here !!! 2A01:110F:4505:DC00:D802:543F:9A84:1976 (talk) 06:48, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Page-level arbitration restrictions
While I agree that this article falls under the general Eastern Europe arbitration restrictions, placing it under 1RR is a more specific move that requires logging. While there's been some sniping and trouble in the edit history, I don't see a need for 1RR to be imposed at this time. I'm inclined to place the general notice at the top, but to stop short of page-level restrictions.  Acroterion   (talk)   20:26, 28 April 2018 (UTC)