Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2019/June

Death camps and death squads, relative emphasis
I've reverted this good faith edit because its wording only supports one academic POV which emphasizes the death camps over the death squads, which is not the only line that historians take. My working is per NPOV, to incorporate both views. The source I'm using is an essay by a member of the Committee on Conscience of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yale historian Timothy Snyder, and is representative of his books. I have cited the one source twice because the first link is to the original text behind paywall, the second full access for all to peruse. I don't mind just one of the citations being used, and happy to add the other historians concurring with the thesis, to the Bullets section too. -Chumchum7 (talk) 03:57, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

e.g. "In fact most Jews who perished in the Holocaust perished in Eastern Europe – in Snyder’s Bloodlands – mostly by bullets on shooting fields to the east of the Molotov–Ribbentrop line and mostly by gas in death camps to its west; not in labour camps." Dovid Katz  --Chumchum7 (talk) 05:23, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I support mentioning both the camps and the death squads and like in the lead. Mentioning just camps would be too generalizing, IMHO. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:12, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Indeed per WP:LEDE the lead section summarizes the article, which includes death squads. All this data are estimates in any case; estimates vary in a range and even if at the very bottom end of the range 'only' ~30% of Jews killed in Occupied Poland were killed by bullets, it's still an omission from the lede. -Chumchum7 (talk) 06:37, 5 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I do to now support but the shooting was also done by the Wehrmacht to by regular units and security divisions of it, This should also be mentioned after the Einsatzgruppen you put a source about it in on the pageJack90s15 (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Chumchum7

@Jack90s15 thanks for your reply. Some grammar and syntax is slightly confusing, both here "by the Wehrmacht to by regular units" and in edit summary "→‎Holocaust by bullets: from His book to put in perspective of how were killed about by shooting operations". Please note also that we're using the past tense in this article, and we don't use capital letters midway through sentences such as your line of content: "By December 1941, about a Million Jews have Been killed by Shooting operations in the Soviet Union." We need to correct that to "By December 1941, about one million Jews were killed by shooting operations in the Soviet Union." Also your edit summary there does not explain your second removal of the same sourced content, namely the line ''Timothy Snyder of the Committee on Conscience of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum has said: "All in all, as many if not more Jews were killed by bullets as by gas". '' My rationale for this line is that it's an overview of the Holocaust by bullets, which is what this section is about. It's cited to one of today's leading historians of the Holocaust at the USHMM and Yale, the material in the citation is open-access and is a highly significant essay within our most up-to-date academic research and discourse, per WP:PRESERVE this should remain available to our readers. Given well over 24 hours have passed for others to chime in and on the understanding of your "I do to now support but the shooting was also done by the Wehrmacht to by regular units and security divisions of it, This should also be mentioned after the Einsatzgruppen you put a source about it in on the page" that you are concurring with Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus above, I'll start by making the addition of the Holocaust by bullets to the intro to include more than just the Einsatzgruppen, per WP:LEDE on summarizing the article. Cheers, --Chumchum7 (talk) 06:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The only I reason removed was some scholarly institute's say more Jewish people died in the Camps then by shooting.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view that's why I put the total number of shooting victims in the east who were Jewish are around 1.3 to 1.5 millionJack90s15 (talk) 06:19, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


 * what if we quote Snyder and another historian also near the End of the section?   Jack90s15 (talk) 06:28, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Chumchum7

Jack90s15, firstly please correct the line: "By December 1941, about a Million Jews have Been killed by Shooting operations in the Soviet Union". Secondly you're putting my username after your messages to me. If you wish to address another user, our convention is that we start our messages with their username. On your point that some scholarly institutes say more Jewish people died in the camps then by shooting, please bring the reference and it can be added. I've read that at least 3 million were killed in camps and at least 2 million were shot; note this is not the same as a source saying more were killed in the camps. -Chumchum7 (talk) 11:13, 10 June 2019 (UTC)


 * When I said that I mean The statistics they show of the death in the Camps and shootings Jack90s15 (talk) 21:30, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Antisemitism?
I don't have the book Intimate Violence but according to its reviews the reason of the pogroms wasn't anti-Semitism but rather fight for domination. Xx236 (talk) 08:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * So quote the review here, or add the content per WP:BOLD as complementary sourcing to what we already have. Poland's own forensic investigation ~2001 into the Jedwabne pogrom found compelling amounts of evidence that a group of 40 Polish men, in defiance of the decrees of the wartime Polish underground state of the resistance and the Polish government in exile in London, forced a fellow Polish citizen who happened to be rabbi to carry a statue of Lenin into a barn in which they then burned him alive, with or without German death squad backing. Inside that barn were murdered hundreds of other Polish citizens some of whom happened to be babies carried by their mothers in their arms, all of whom were Jewish, the investigation showed. This is verifiable in secondary sources. If it's helpful to you, perhaps bear in mind that every country without exception has its shame; Britain and America turned away tens of thousand of Jewish refugees who were then murdered in the Holocaust, 5 million Jews and millions more Soviet civilians were already killed by the time Americans and British finally got round to D-Day in 1944. I suggest we don't waste our time trying to work out the motivations of a group of 40 traitors to Poland who murdered Polish babies. -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:34, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It's fascinating that no editor living in the West is able to summarize the book for Wikipedia. I'm living in Poland, a long way from Warsaw, where probably the only copy in Poland of the book is available. Both autorss are academic, probably Jewish. I have written about the book at leaat several times. I don't have it aqnd my English is too bad to summarize its reviews. Unfortunately Jewish Times is preferred here.
 * Killing people was common during WWII, eg. Ukrainian nationalists murdered Jews and Poles in similar way, so anti-Semitism wasn't the only or even main reason of the crimes. Sometimes Poles murdered non-Jewish Ukrainians.
 * Grabowski writes about antisemitims in Hunt for the Jews, but Frydel proves that similar hunts were organised for other groups. Grabowski writes about pre-war anti-Semitic propaganda, but doesn't inform about German professional propaganda during the war.Xx236 (talk) 08:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Jewish resistance hero Marek Edelman famously explained that you don't have to be an anti-Semite to kill a vulnerable Jew in hiding in order to steal from them. After all, some Poles killed Poles who were not Jews, for that same reason. But there's a difference between a pogrom in which the trope of Zydokomuna is invoked against Jews, and a criminal punching the teeth out of a Jew in hiding to get a gold dental filling, knowing that he'll get away with it because due to ethnicity the person has nobody to go to seek justice. The pogrom is clearly under the subheading of antisemitism, criminality might not be best placed there. But Grabowski writes about organized hunts for Jews by groups of Poles who ignored the deterrent of the Polish resistance to cooperate with anti-Semitic German policies; that certainly comes under anti-Semitism. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Grabowski describes people terrorized by Germans, who tried to survive. Grabowski's biased comments aren't supported by a long part of his book. Grabowski ignores part of the context described by Frydel, quoted by me several times. Generally hostages and their families are cooperative in any society. Please don't quote Grabowski literally, he isn't reliable.
 * Our knowledge of Jedwabne pogrom is limited, so we aren't able to formulate any theory. I have just read an old paper by Szarota, who describes series of pogroms. Jedwabne belonged to the series, wasn't singular.
 * Psychology studies deep reasons of human actions and their rationalisations. The relationship is complicated.
 * The Jews were forced to imitate Soviet marches in similar way in several places, so the idea was probably German. The Jews were forced to clean cobblestones like Vienna Jews in 1938 were forced to clean pavements. I doubt that Jedwabne peasants studied Vienna events. Many of them were illiterate. The peasants who came to Jedwabne wanted to plunder rather than manifest any ideology.
 * Lynches of Soviet informers took place when Soviets left, in June. Such explanation of July pogroms is poor.Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Intimate Violence is a novel social-scientific explanation of ethnic violence and the Holocaust. It locates the roots of violence in efforts to maintain Polish and Ukrainian dominance rather than in anti-Semitic hatred or revenge for communism. http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140102719170 Xx236 (talk) 07:57, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski comes under the definition of a Wikipedia WP:RS, and he is also part of mainstream academic discourse as peer reviews show. Even if he is a revisionist or minority historian, that does not rule him out of this encyclopedia; much cutting-edge academic research is necessarily minority and revisionist. What are your views on Timothy Snyder, by the way? -Chumchum7 (talk) 06:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This page isn't about Grabowski, nor about Snyder. BTW Snyder was attacked because he underrepresented collaboration, so he wrote "Black Earth". I would prefer his history of WWII in Europe instead. He could have also added one page to Bloodlands rather than to reject the subject.Xx236 (talk) 08:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * So does that mean you view Snyder as a credible source? -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Please discuss the page.


 * The first paragraph of the Antisemitism is unsourced. The referenced text by Blatman doesn't suport the paragraph.
 * The second paragraph isn't about antisemitism according to Intmate Violence.
 * Kielce pogrom was axplained rather by blood libel or grassroots antisemitism (Zaremba), it probbaly cannot be explained by property restitution given as only reason. Xx236 (talk) 11:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

June 2019 edit
I removed this sentence from the lead:  The killing took place amid a constant Polish insurgency and conventional warfare against the Germans, who also killed 1.8 million to 2.8 million non-Jewish Poles . It's undue / off-topic there, and is also a bit confusing. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this note, it was me who added the line. I understand your perspective and would point out the mainstream sources which mention this aspect as on-topic, e.g. the USHMM and it's also in the body of the article, which per WP:LEDE we summarize - with due weight of course. If it's confusing I'd be happy to help reword for clarity per WP:CONS. In what way do you find the sentence confusing? --Chumchum7 (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I bet that 90% of readers don't know anything about other German crimes in occupied Poland, even Roma are not mentioned in the lead. The Holocaust was a part of German genocides. Division of Jews and non-Jews is based on Nazi law.Xx236 (talk) 08:15, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not base distinctions on Nazi law. Our reliable sources make the distinction; they show that it was far less dangerous in German-occupied Poland to be a Pole who was not Jewish (circa 10% killed at up to 2.8 million deaths) than it was to be a Pole who was Jewish (circa 90% killed at over 3 million deaths). And yet all the killing was at a scale unheard of in Western Europe, and all of it tends to be discussed as part of the policies of the German occupation. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The linked USHMM's article is on a different topic: "Polish Victims"; it does not mention the Holocaust. That's why this is off-topic for the lead in this article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It does mention it not by name but by numbers: "It is estimated that the Germans killed between 1.8 and 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians during World War II. In addition, the Germans murdered at least 3 million Jewish citizens of Poland." I consider the sentence Chumchum7 added relevant and I think it should be restored. Nazi crimes in Poland is very relevant topic to this and should be linked in lead. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:56, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

The "200,000" figure is sheer speculation
I strongly object to quoting of the "200,000" figure. Grabowski has lied that the number comes from Szymon Datner, and has never proven the number rationally. According to Borkowski, the number implied by Grabowski's and Engelking' Dalej jest noc is 40,000. The problem has been discussed by many authors, e.g. Teresa Prekerowa.

200,000 in what area? In the General Gouvernment with Galicja, where Ukrainian police and nationalists murdered Jews and Poles? All of occupied Poland, with Ponary? Ponary was a Lithuanian crime; Poles were murdered there. The "200,000" number is used to shock the reader rather than to explain anything. Xx236 (talk) 08:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * If you disagree that Grabowski is a reliable source, you have a place to raise that at WP:RS/N. Let's remember that per WP:TRUTH, Wikipedia relies on what we are able to verify in the reliable sources, not what we think is true. -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Grabowski misuses his academic position to spread speculations and his political obsessions. There is a difference between an academic text and a rumour. I don't know who reviewed the book Judenjagd. Some historians believe that books published by the Polish Center for Holocaust Research aren't reviewed pre-publication by independent experts.
 * There exists no serious finding that Poles are responsible for the deaths of 200,000 Jews, based on a methodology. Grabowski doesn't define Poland and Poles. "10% [of ghetto-imprisoned Jews escaped, then] died because of Poles", isn't academic. Similar speculations about tens of thousands of Polish rescuers having been murdered by the Germans, are rejected.
 * You ignore what I write. Borkowski published an article based on Dalej jest noc, deriving from the book's own data an estimated 40,000 Jews who perished with Polish involvement. A long article, employing a methodology, is much better than "200,000"; but here we have "200,000." Anti-Polish bias is reliable; reliable Polish sources aren't reliable.
 * I have participated in similar discussions for months. Please read them. You don't know the books and press articles that I quote. There is no royal road to geometry (Euclid). Xx236 (talk) 10:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * How do I ignore what you write? I'm currently the only editor here not ignoring you. I've let you know that you can take up your issue in a dedicated place per Wikipedia protocol, where it will be considered - and that is WP:RS/N. Moreover, there's nothing in policy that rules out speculation from sources. This article clearly uses the word "estimate" for the figure; estimate is a synonym of speculate  --Chumchum7 (talk) 11:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * As I understand science, people work and obtain results. The results have to be verifiable. According to Domański, the numbers in Dalej jest noc aren't verifiable. But even those numbers, when processed by Borkowski, give a result of 40,000. Even 100 professors are not allowed to write "200,000" without sources. The "200,000" was based on Judenjagd, a study of one prewar Polish county. The numbers were erroneous, according to Krystyna Samsonowska, of Kraków's Jagiellonian University, so even if Grabowski had some methodology to estimate something on the basis of a single county, the result would have been lower. But obviously no one extrapolates data from a single county to a whole country, at the time divided into several parts.
 * By "ignoring", I mean that the subject has been discussed several times, and you haven't read those discussions but repeat that Grabowski is reliable. All the sources are available, you can verify them. There is no reason to accept the numbers invented by Grabowski. Xx236 (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Regarding Xx236's above remark ("Some historians believe that books published by the Center aren't reviewed by independent experts"): In Tomasz Domański's 72-page article, "Korekta obrazu? Refleksje źródłoznawcze wokół książki Dalej jest noc. Losy Żydów w wybranych powiatach okupowanej Polski" ("A Corrected Picture?  Reflections on Use of Sources in the Book, Night Continues: The Fate of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland")," in the Institute of National Remembrance periodical, Polish-Jewish Studies (2019), footnote 213, p. 72, reads:  "It is worth asking whether the book [Dalej jest noc] underwent [pre-publication expert] review.  Customarily, reviewers' names are placed on the page that gives publication information.  In Dalej jest noc, reviewers' names are not given, as is also the case with other major books bearing the Polish Center for Holocaust Research imprint.  See Prowincja noc...; Zarys krajobrazu...; B. Engelking, Jest taki piękny...; J. Grabowski, Judenjagd..."
 * Nihil novi (talk) 12:49, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Per my comments elsewhere, I think this estimate can be used as long as it is attributed. Any other estimates, if found, and reliable, can be presented as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a trash can. I have read Judenjagd, and the book doesn't in any way support the number. The 200,000 number is a tool for dehumanizing Polish people comparable to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a tool against Jews. Grabowski misquoted Szymon Datner, and Dalej jest noc doesn't replace Datner.
 * Even if we accept the 200,000 number, readers should be helped to understand the effect of the German terror described by Grabowski. I'm not sure that even involved editors understand the details of the German terror system, specific to Central and Eastern Europe and Serbia, and I don't expect such knowledge from 90% of readers. No legal or ethical system condones taking the lives of terrorized civilians, especially women and children. Plush-armchair heroes shouldn't judge World War II victims.
 * Data for selected Polish counties are of low quality and unverifiable. Dr. Jacek Proszyk was unable to estimate numbers for Bielsko-Biała County because the task was too complicated, especially for one person working under the given time constraints. Unfortunately his blog has disappeared. Xx236 (talk) 06:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * However, English-language renderings of Proszyk's blog, full-length and abridged, remain available on Wikipedia, in current or previous versions of articles. Nihil novi (talk) 08:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * In France, Marcel Petiot murdered Jews, even though he wasn't terrorized by the Germans. Are all French people therefore responsible for his crimes, the way Grabowski attributes across-the-board guilt to the Polish people? The Marcel Petiot page doesn't qualify him as anti-Semitic; it seems that mainly Poles are anti-Semitic on this Wikipedia.  Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Blue Police
The Blue Police did participate (in limited way). Some policemen helped Jews.
 * https://sztetl.org.pl/pl/slownik/granatowa-policja
 * https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/polacy-i-zydzi-wielka-klotnia-o-historie-rozmowa-z-piotrem-zychowiczem/8l6wvlk Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

ŻOB and ŻZW
These Jewish combat organisations are mentioned in the "Poles and the Jews" section but not in the previous, "Armed resistance and ghetto uprisings" section. Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Invasion of Poland
During the September 1939 invasion of Poland, some Jews were shot by the Germans, some were humiliated, e.g. barbered. Some authors assume that the German Luftwaffe deliberately bombed Warsaw's Jewish quarter on two Jewish holidays. Xx236 (talk) 07:33, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Nazi ghettoization policy
This section should be rewritten. Judenrats were generally formed in 1939 and participated in the ghettoization process. Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 19 June 2019 (UTC)