Talk:The Holocaust in Ukraine

Why is this page using a doctored picture?
First photograph is a Russian propaganda fake: http://englishrussia.com/2012/09/06/photo-manipulations-in-the-ussr/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.28.136.108 (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Uh, no it's not.

--Sergey Romanov (talk) 04:23, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

'Collaborators' Section is nonsense
Why does this article have a large, prominent section on 'Ukrainian Collaborators' and none of the German instigators? The problem is particularly acute as it is utterly without citation and a quick read of the wikipedia page of the first two (the only ones that have wikipedia pages) shows nothing in their record that would qualify for inclusion on this page. Instead, all that we get is a "guilt by implication" quote from the Simon Wiesenthal center. This, despite the fact that the second guy on the list was actually *executed by the nazis*.

Because the section as written is completely unencyclopedic, I have removed it. If somebody wishes to restore it, please do so if and only if it is well sourced to truly call such men 'collaborators' *in the holocaust* which is the topic of this article. I don't doubt some may have been, but this needs specific references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.12.110 (talk) 04:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Einsatzgruppen Killing.jpg
The image File:Einsatzgruppen Killing.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --08:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite necessary
This is an important topic, but it requires a balanced treatment of the various factors, obviously a complicated subject. Right now it copies pieces, particularly from The Holocaust, and focuses too much on the western Ukraine. Also, the disputed and ambiguous role of the various Ukrainian nationalist organizations needs to be brought out.Mtsmallwood (talk) 01:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggested resources

 * Brandon, Ray, and Lower, Wendy, eds. The Shoah in Ukraine: History, Testimony, Memorialization Indiana University Press 2008 ISBN 0253350840
 * Dean, Martin, Collaboration in the Holocaust : crimes of the local police in Belorussia and Ukraine, 1941-44, New York : St. Martin's Press : Published in association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 2000 ISBN 0312220561
 * Desbois, Patrick, The Holocaust by Bullets: A Priest's Journey to Uncover the Truth Behind the Murder of 1.5 Million Jews, Palgrave Macmillan 2008 ISBN 0230606172
 * Dobroszycki, Lucjan, and Gurock, Jeffrey S., eds., The Holocaust in the Soviet Union : studies and sources on the destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied territories of the USSR, 1941-1945, M.E. Sharpe 1993 ISBN 1563241730
 * Lower, Wendy, Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in Ukraine, University of North Carolina Press 2007 ISBN 0807858633
 * Rubenstein, Joshua, and Altman, Ilya, eds., The Unknown Black Book: The Holocaust in the German-Occupied Soviet Territories, Publisher: Indiana University Press 2007 ISBN 0253349613

Holocaust in Ukraine refers to the Nazi crimes during the Occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany
Lead statement for article is Holocaust in Ukraine refers to the Nazi crimes during the Occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany. The article is being cluttered with other military activity unrelated to the Nazis. Please explain why it belongs here. Bobanni (talk) 04:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Photograph from Ivangorod
The "Ivangorod" (Iвангород) in question is the present Ivanhorod in Chernihiv Oblast, Ukraine. Ivanhorod is a very small village or settlement, but it is visable on Google Maps. Antique Rose &mdash; Drop me a line  21:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

An honest question: the foto is titled "Nazi soldier murdering Jewish civilians, including a mother and child, in 1942, at Ivanhorod, Ukraine." What evidence is there that this foto really shows

1) Nazi soldiers (keeping in mind that German-made uniforms were widespread among their allies)

2) Jewish civilians

3) in 1942 at Ivanhorod?

The story about the Polish resistance member is, without a doubt, intriguing, but the cited publication (1939-1945. We have not forgotten / Nous n'avons pas oublié / Wir haben es nicht vergessen., Warsaw: Polonia, pp. 267 no ISBN) isn't an academically reliable source at all and doesn't even have an ISBN. 190.222.156.65 (talk) 07:49, 29 July 2016 (UTC) (I'm not a registered user at Wikipedia)

Lute88, don't just revert, state an actual argument. It's preciseley shoddy source work like this that gives credence to holocaust deniers. I believe you when you say that the foto is extensively sourced, but you have to admit that a "google search" doesn't cut it on Wikipedia. I insist we need an actual, reliable citation for that foto caption. Any idea?

(Context: My name's Derrek, I'm taking a class on Visual History and Image Manipulation right now and our prof really, ferociously, brutally hammers on the point of foto sourcing. We got an assignment to treat a series of potentially controversial image material of the 20th century, for example on the holocaust, Stalin's purges, or the Vietnam War etc) 190.222.156.65 (talk) 02:01, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


 * http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/executions-kiev-jews-german-army-mobile-killing-units-1942/.--Lute88 (talk) 10:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jew_Killings_in_Ivangorod_(1942).jpg . Your use of the word "kike" is also duly noted elsewhere.--Lute88 (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Come again? Please refrain from insinuations and the use of racist language. But thanks at least for responding. Your links don't solve our problem, though:

"The photo was mailed from the Eastern Front to Germany and intercepted at a Warsaw post office by a member of the Polish resistance collecting documentation on Nazi war crimes. The original print was owned by Tadeusz Mazur and Jerzy Tomaszewski and now resides in Historical Archives in Warsaw. The original German inscription on the back of the photograph reads, "Ukraine 1942, Jewish Action [operation], Ivangorod."

This is all fine, and I personally believe it, BUT we need an actual, reliable, publicated source on this according to the Wiki rules. For example when scanning the sources I saw that the German description says:  "Das Foto befand sich im Besitz von Tadeusz Mazur und Jerzy Tomaszewski und liegt jetzt im Historischen Archiv Warschau. Es ist über das Bildarchiv Preußischer Kulturbesitz, Bildnummer 30011071 und das Ullstein-Bildarchiv verfügbar"

A quick Google translate tells me that there apparently exists this foundation in Germany with a foto archive, perhaps we could somehow cite this? 190.222.156.65 (talk) 22:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC) (Derrek)


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Jewish_feminists&diff=prev&oldid=729394367 - duly noted.--Lute88 (talk) 10:43, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Is "publicated" the same as "published", or some other meaning? Please clarify what you mean. 2A00:23C8:8F9F:4801:B8E2:D5AA:57D5:BF97 (talk) 22:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm, interesting... that is indeed my shown IP and a quite nasty remark. I did a quick geo search and it leads to Lima, Peru, while I'm posting from Cali, tho (won't tell you my uni though). I logged in from the lib, a VPN issue perhaps? I'll see if I can get another IP.

To disperse any dark clouds, I'm partially Jewish myself. My great-grandfather was called Herelwiz and came from Lublin. My family still has an old diary from him (won't tell you my own surname tho, I already gave enough personal info). That's why I'm writing my thesis about this time period, by the way and why I'm harping on this foto, because I'm using it for said thesis.

(In fact, to be completely honest for a brief moment I was suspicious about you myself because of the "88" in your nick, which seems to be a salient number for Nazis. Didn't want to come across as snappy.)

To the topic:

1) What dou you think about the term "Axis" instead of "Nazi" soldier? Because as you know many auxiliars and collaborateurs wore German uniforms, and I'm not comfortable calling them Nazis in the strict sense. We cannot be sure if the man shown was one of them.

2) But more important: we also don't know if those victims in the pic are really Jewish, and just assuming so can, ironically, perpetuate Nazi stereotypes. Because how did THEY (the Nazis) know that they were Jewish? I mean there probably were some local archives, denunciations, geographic/linguistic separation from the Ukrainians (the shetls) etc, but in the final analysis there probably was a lot of guesswork. They were military, not ethnographers, so we have to assume a significant percentage of mis-identification. If they could not be sure, how can we be? Would you be ok with the phrase "civilians, probably Jewish"?

3) I'm also not sure about the term "murdering" because it is a legal, not a descriptive term. If I use this word in my paper I'm 100% sure my prof will redline it (he's a hound for precision and bulletproof sourcing). Could "killing" be an alternative?

Derrek — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.222.156.65 (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Images
The layout of this article would be improved if the images were grouped in a gallery. The many images are cluttering the article as it stands now.- Gilliam (talk) 03:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The image of a child and her mother before death was not a image of jewish mother at all. But Ukrainian woman holding her child. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.210.247.207 (talk) 11:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Soviet Holocaust
Why is there no reference or link to the Communist Holocaust of the 1930's?125.237.105.102 (talk) 02:44, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Because it is a separate historical event with a different name - Holodomor.--Lute88 (talk) 11:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The number of Jewish victims

 * Here between 850,000 - 900,000 Jews
 * 1.6 million .Xx236 (talk) 09:20, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Honestly, what has happened to this article? It looks like the header was sabotaged by a Nazi with a bad command of English.--Senor Freebie (talk) 14:35, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
 * they tried to bring it down to 200k, and it, well, got noticed. And fixed.Atrix20 (talk) 03:28, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * 850k is widely cited by historians. Just go on google books, here: - Google SearchLeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ ) 18:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion of Generalplan Ost
I removed the discussion of Generalplan Ost in this edit -- it's misplaced in the article. In any case, the removed text made no connection to the Holocaust in Ukraine. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:06, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I removed yet more recent additions pertaining to Generalplan Ost; preserving here by providing this link. If this material is not yet included in the GPO article, it can be added there instead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:31, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no sense in removing holocaust material just because you believe "it has no connection." Snyder in the introduction makes it clear that the Holocaust and conquering of Ukraine, and thus efforts to exterminate the population, are central to the Holocaust taking place. Nonetheless, a sub section with a link to that main article shouldnt be an issue since its not given undue weight. Currently the article seems to scrub GPO entirely, which makes no sense. LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ ) 18:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Non-Jewish victims
Speaking about this edit, everyone agrees that the Holocaust was a genocide of European Jews. But should other victims of Nazi during such campaigns be also noted on such pages? There could be different views about it, but the current consensus (as reflected in our Holocaust page) is that such victims should also be prominently described. See the last paragraph in the lead of page Holocaust and section The_Holocaust. Am I wrong? I am not supporting this specific inclusion - exactly as it was done. I would do this differently, i.e. by placing a lot more emphasis that it was indeed the genocide of European Jews. My very best wishes (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Both suggested and current versions have a problem: they show numbers of Jewish and other victims not specifically for Ukraine, but for USSR. Therefore, I can not fix this myself, just by editing these versions. My very best wishes (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that for the sake of consistency with The Holocaust and also other similar articles like The Holocaust in Poland we should limit ourselves only to Jewish victims. Marcelus (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You contradict yourself. Yes, if we want to be consistent, we must describe non-Jewish victims on this page in the same proportion as on the page Holocaust - that is something you agree with (and I agree too). But they have been described at length on the page Holocaust - see links above. So, let's include them here too. Why not?
 * Now, the numbers of Jewish victims currently on this page seem to be problematic. I checked the source (certainly an RS), and it says: By the end of 1941, the Germans (along with local auxiliaries and Romanian troops) had killed a million Jews in the Soviet Union and the Baltics. That is the equivalent of the total number of Jews killed at Auschwitz during the entire war. By the end of 1942, the Germans (again, with a great deal of local assistance) had shot another 700,000 Jews, and the Soviet Jewish populations under their control had ceased to exist. Which gives an incomplete number of 1,7 million Soviet Jews killed. Do we have any data specifically for Ukraine in academic English language sources? My very best wishes (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well of course they can be mentioned, but the focus needs to be on Jewish victims. Marcelus (talk) 21:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no loss of focus in mentioning both side by side. In most Holocaust literature, it is never referred to an exclusive event against just Jews, as other minorities or undesirables are virtually always mentioned. IMO it only makes sense to include both side by side considering they happened side by side. LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ ) 18:47, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "Most Holocaust literature"? In Iran and, possibly, parts of Ukraine, it might be so. In the rest of the World, particularly the part of the World that publishes sources considered valid on wikipedia, the Holocaust concerned Jews until fairly recently, whereupon it started to be expanded in historical scope to include Romas as well. Yes, the Nazis killed a lot of other people, including ethnic Germans that didn't happen to agree with their policies and even other Nazis who happened to wear a slightly different uniform, but none of this fits in what the Holocaust is understood to be. Also, to state an obvious fact many seem to be nonetheless oblivious to, Ukrainians are not, nor were in the 1940's, a minority in Ukraine.
 *  c  o  m  p  l  a  i  n  e r  13:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)