Talk:The Hours After Noon

Sourcing plot summaries
Greetings Barkeep49 -

I wonder if you can take a look at the plot summaries for two articles I've recently created. The Hours After Noon and Tea on the Mountain, both by Paul Bowles. I've recently added sources for the summaries because they have been repeatedly removed by an editor (User: Praxidicae), who seem to be condemning my edits on political or gender-based grounds. Most plot sections I've viewed have no source/footnote/citations supporting them. What is my responsibility in a situations such as these?

By the way, I recently updated a children's story you may know: David and the Phoenix. CerroFerro (talk) 16:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @CerroFerro I'm not familiar with either of the books so it's hard for me give too much feedback. The summaries do read as potentially OR. I'm having a hard time putting my finger on exactly what about them is causing me concern, so I understand this isn't the most useful feedback. More concretely, the plot summaries are too long, or at least too long for the current state of the articles. The Hours after noon is over 1100 words which is considerably longer than the 700 word max the MOS recommends for novels. Tea on the Mountain is around 550 which could be appropriate for a fully built out article but at the moment recommends 70% of the words in the article. I hope that helps. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:07, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Barkeep49: Your Userpage indicates you are an Administrator. You don't need to be "familiar" with the books to determine if I am required to include a source for a Plot Summary. Or if tearing down the plot sections is appropriate because an editor claims that the content was assumed to be "copy and pasted". Or to explain what is "biased" in the content of that section. Please limit yourself to addressing the question. The plot sections are are attack. If I behaved that way, an Administrator would be threatening me with a 24-hour block.--CerroFerro (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @CerroFerro You are correct that convention is that plot summaries do not strictly need a citation. There are editors who sometimes feel differently and since MOS:PLOTSOURCE says it doesn't hurt I'll often just let it happen. In terms of bias, I'm not sure if that's the same concept I was getting at with OR. I hope that helps. Also, I'm not sure if you meant to do this, but this reply came off pretty hostile, which is unusual in a situation where someone is asking for help. While it is true I am an administrator, for content disputes that doesn't give me any special powers and so this reply is from my point of view as an editor of book articles. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Dear Barkeep49- The wholesale removal of two plot summaries, repeatedly, and without going to the Talk Page, as I requested of User: Praxidicae is what I reported. The message was, and is, from that editor "either provide a source on demand for the summary, or it's coming down." There, I believe, is the "hostility", if you think about it. Contacting Praxidicae on this matter and requesting an explanation does not require any "special powers", just a sensible administrative approach. 'Nuff said.--CerroFerro (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Praxidicae frequently lurks on this user talk so I think there's an excellent chance she has seen this discussion and seen that I agree they belong, agree they likely don't need sources (the parts where I agree with you) and that I think they were UNDUE (the part I agree with her). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Now I'm really mystified. You wrote, Barkeep49, the you "agree with" User:Praxidicae on an "UNDUE" matter. The only complaints registered were concerning the plot sections for the two articles I linked above, to wit:

"this is clearly copied from somewhere and not at all neutral" and "unsourced and probably a copyvio"

What part of this do you "agree" with Barkeep49?

Let's consider this exchange as a "Third Party" review of the dispute. I'd like to go directly to Dispute Resolution if the "lurking" persists. Based on your own remarks, Praxidecae has declined to participate, which suggests bad faith. CerroFerro (talk) 16:56, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Praxidicae has been offered several opportunities to defend deletions to plot summaries of short stories by Paul Bowles, but has this far declined to do so. User:Barkeep49, a Wiki Administrator on literary matters has weighed in on the matter. The discussion so far seems to satisfy a "Third Party" review.--CerroFerro (talk) 17:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Would you please stop bludgeoning discussions everywhere about this? I reverted you a single time on either article and you haven't bothered to actually you know, address me on my talk page or even ping me about it until now. I think your creations are largely MOS:PLOT violations and while I know there's mixed views on sourcing plot summaries, the widely accepted norm is that the bulk of any article shouldn't be a plot summary, which yours largely are. Stop making idle threats and accusing me of bias where there is none. tl;dr at this point I don't care what you do, stop pingin me and stop accusing me of the nonsense you have above. If you want to create massive plot based articles, be my guest. Someone else can clean up after you. PRAXIDICAE🌈 17:05, 10 August 2022 (UTC)