Talk:The Illuminatus! Trilogy/Archive 2

Expand
everything in the article needs to be expanded:
 * more about publishing history of original novels individually. article doesnt say when it was first published.
 * more from the mouths of wilson and shea about their thoughts on the novels, how they collaborated in writing it, why they chose their weird narrative styles etc
 * more criticism, literary and popular, about the trilogy, who liked it, who hated it, and why, has its popularity and influence declined or increased over the years?
 * plot needs a going-over - should be much more detailed than it is (its why i came to the article in the first place, to find a simple expln. of the complex story).
 * plot details could be wrong were the nazis gonna be reawakened after all the festival-goers were killed, or were they supposed to kill the festival-goers?
 * themes must be greatly expanded - all the atlantis stuff, the submarine, the heavy numerology references, the dillinger dying words etc are barely mentioned
 * significance of titles are not mentioned.
 * how did its earn its reputation? i keep seeing it mentioned as a counter-culture post-modern classic, but who said it? why is it so popular and still in print today?
 * what about the millions of things influenced by it? like The KLF. what about the thousands of things its influenced by, like H.P. Lovecraft? Zzzzz 20:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The individual novels I have say the original copyright date was 1975. Either they came out both in three volumes and an omnibus in the same year, or maybe the date for the omnibus is wrong.
 * The backs of the books have blurbs from Playboy, Publishers Weekly, Village Voice, etc. Might be nice to track down where they actually appeared.  In more recent years, The New Hacker's Dictionary had high praise for it.
 * Maybe somebody can track down Farmer on Wilson, Heavy Metal #54, September 1981 "In this article Farmer discusses/reviews the Illuminatus Trilogy." http://www.pjfarmer.com/review.htm and these http://www.santaroga.uklinux.net/ShowAuthor.php3?selected_author=Wilson%2CRobert+Anton by Phil Stephensen-Payne. Schizombie 06:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Going over the plot will be tricky!
 * They were revived by the band's message being projected into the crowd and reflected into the lake, or something like that. And then the  underwater nazi zombies were supposed to kill the crowd.
 * Significance of the titles Eye in the Pyramid, Golden Apple, and Leviathan, or what other titles?
 * I'm not too familiar with many things influenced by it other than The KLF, Illuminati (game), and Karl Koch. Oh, actually I remember Machines of Loving Grace said in an interview Rite of Shiva from their first album took its name from a scene in the book (I know the scene too).  I don't have the magazine that was in anymore, probably but the same claim is online .  Wayne Saalman's Illuminati novels to some extent - Wilson does an introduction.  Larry Burkett's novel Illuminati also seems like a sanitized-for-Christianity version (and the front cover design and back cover synopsis seem to rip Illuminatus! off), but I don't have a copy anymore.  As for things that influenced Illuminatus!, I don't think they could all be covered in a single article!  Anyway, I'll try and add some of all of this stuff.  Schizombie 21:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * yes i meant significance of those titles Eye in the Pyramid, Golden Apple, and Leviathan. cheers! Zzzzz 21:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

This has already been noted, but for the record I checked a couple of RAW websites to get the information regarding the publishing dates. I also have a copy of Leviathan from 1975 that I checked along with the omnibus. I agree describing the plot will be tricky. I read the book every 5 years and I'm due for another go-around as I last read it in 2001. I notice new things every time. I first got into the book back in high school and both myself and my best friend managed to sneak Illuminatiisms into our high school year book. I held up a tiny sign saying "King Kong Died For Your Sins" in a photograph (you can read it with a magnifying glass) and my friend managed to sneak a Fnord into his Grade 12 Yearbook message after convincing his teacher it wasn't obscene. 23skidoo 03:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, I have reread it several times too I think, or at least substantial parts of it. I also read it first in high school.Schizombie 04:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
Thanks for asking our help - I haven't read the books so it will be limited. However I was thinking of putting on the infobox. However that will be difficult whilst the content stays as an article for the whole series. The infoboxs are really for use for individual titles. if the article became four, one for the series and three (one for each title) we could do some more with it. Does the significance of the book justify this though. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page)  08:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * the infobox should cover the single omnibus edition which is the most commonly available version of the book (finding the 3 books individually is very uncommon). Zzzzz 10:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Publication history
where did the info that separate editions were published between 1969 and 1971 come from? in the interviews in the external links it says it never found a publisher till 1975. can somebody verify that info in the infobox and in the "release history" section? i'm looking here and here  Zzzzz 11:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * oops - that was an assumption on my part - very dangerous - please correct with the besst information that you have - sorry. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page)  11:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know when the omnibus was first published. That the books were written between 1969 and 1971, and then not published until 1975 is stated in Cosmic Trigger I: Final Secret of the Illuminati. Schizombie 17:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * ok i used the IFSDB links above and Locus Mag (see references section) to correct.... but in the intro it still says an "omnibus" edition was published in 1975, but those sources say the first omnibus edition was only in 1984! which is correct? Zzzzz 12:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned earlier, several of the RAW websites say the three volumes and the omnibus all came out the same year, 1975. However I believe the books were inspired by letters to the editor at Playboy written between 1969 and 1971... 23skidoo 14:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I still think the 1984 omnibus date is incorrect as I'm certain a friend of mine had a copy prior to that year, but anyway... I was able to solve the 69-71 date mystery at least. According to this corresponds to the years Shea and Wilson actually wrote the trilogy. (It took awhile for them to find a publisher). 23skidoo 21:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

ISBN codes
moving these off the article page:

(release history section basically covers this)
 * ISBN 0440046882 ISBN 0440146887 ISBN 0440346886 ISBN 0722192177 (The Eye in the Pyramid)
 * ISBN 0440046912 ISBN 0440146917 ISBN 0440346916 ISBN 0722192096 ISBN 0722192142 ISBN 0722192223 (The Golden Apple)
 * ISBN 0440147425 ISBN 0440347424 ISBN 0440147425 ISBN 0722192118 ISBN 0722192134 ISBN 0722192169 (Leviathan)

self-review
dumping this here until i find somewhere to put it:

"Epicene Wildeblood" (page 238):

It's a dreadfully long monster of a book, Wildeblood says pettishly, and I certainly won't have time to read it, but I'm giving it a thorough skimming. The authors are utterly incompetent—no sense of style or structure at all. It starts out as a detective story, switches to science-fiction, then goes off into the supernatural, and is full of the most detailed information of dozens of ghastly boring subjects. And the time sequence is all out of order in a very pretentious imitation of Faulkner and Joyce. Worst yet, it has the most raunchy sex scenes, thrown in just to make it sell, I'm sure, and the authors—whom I've never heard of—have the supreme bad taste to introduce real political figures into this mishmash and pretend to be exposing a real conspiracy. You can be sure I won't waste time reading such rubbish, but I'll have perfectly devastating review ready for you by tomorrow noon.

There are several places like that. George Dorn says early on:

"What the fuck are you talking about?" I asked, wondering if I was in some crazy surrealist movie, wandering from telepathic sheriffs to homosexual assassins, to nympho lady Masons, to psychotic pirates, according to a script written in advance by two acid-heads and a Martian humorist.

And then toward the end there's the whole part where they all realize they're in a book, Hagbard saying:

"It's the truth," Hagbard said calmly. "I can fool the rest of you, but I can't fool the reader. FUCKUP has been working all morning, correlating all the data on this caper and its historical roots, and I programmed him to put it in the form of a novel for easy reading. Considering what a lousy job he does at poetry, I suppose it will be a high-camp novel, intentionally or unintentionally."

Outline
There's some precedent for including the book's outline in detail, Ulysses (novel) does. So here it is, with page #s and interpolated brackets, italized info added by me:

Illuminatus!

I1, E3 Part I The Eye in the Pyramid
 * I5, E5  Book One Verwirrung [Chaos] [Thesis]
 * I7, E7  The First Trip, or Kether [The Crown] (From Dealey Plaza To Watergate...)
 * I58, E58  The Second Trip, or Chokmah [Wisdom] (Hopalong Horus Rides Again) [I149.7]
 * I91, E91  The Third Trip, or Binah [Understanding]
 * I139, E139  Book Two Zweitracht [Discord] [Antithesis]
 * I141, E141  The Fourth Trip, or Chesed [Mercy] (Jesus Christ on a Bicycle) [I142]
 * I217, E217  The Fifth Trip, or Geburah [Severity] (Swift-Kick, Inc.) [I232]

I305, G5  Part II The Golden Apple
 * G7  Prologue
 * I311, G21  Book Three Unordnung [Confusion] [Synthesis]
 * I312, G22  The Sixth Trip, or Tipareth [Beauty] (The Man Who Murdered God)
 * I385, G95  The Seventh Trip, or Netzach [Victory] (The SNAFU Principle)
 * I475, G185  Book Four Beamtenherrschaft [Bureaucracy] [Parenthesis]
 * I476, G186  The Eighth Trip, or Hod [Glory] (Telemachus Sneezed)

I563, L5  Part III Leviathan
 * L7  Prologue
 * I566, L14  The Ninth Trip, or Yesod [Foundation] (Walpurgisnacht Rock)
 * I655, L103  Book Five Grummet [Aftermath] [Paralysis]
 * I657, L105  The Tenth Trip, or Malkuth [The Kingdom] (Farewell to Planet Earth)
 * I733, L181  The Appendices
 * I735, L183  Appendix Aleph (George Washington’s Hemp Crop)
 * I737, L185  Appendix Beth (The Illuminati Ciphers, Codes, and Calendars)
 * I742, L190  Appendix Gimmel (The Illuminati Theory of History)
 * I756, L204  Appendix Daleth (Hassan i Sabbah and Alamout Black)
 * I762, L210  Appendix Tzaddi (23 Skidoo)
 * I764, L212  Appendix Vau (Flaxscript and Hempscript)
 * I767, L215  Appendix Zain (Property and Privilege)
 * I768, L216  Appendix Cheth (Hagbard’s Abdication) [I430, G140]
 * I768, L216  Appendix Lamed (The Tactics of Magic)
 * I783, L231  Appendix Yod (Operation Mindfuck)
 * I788, L236  Appendix Kaph (The Rosy Double-Cross)
 * I790, L238  Appendix Teth (Hagbard’s Booklet)
 * I797, L245  Appendix Mem (Certain Questions that may still trouble some readers)
 * I799, L247  Appendix Nun (Additional Information about Some of the Characters)


 * looks good, not too sure where it would fit in the article though?
 * Yeah, it's fairly long ("As the..."). Could just include the Parts and Books and Appendices, or just the parts and books, or whatever's useful, maybe none of it. Schizombie 22:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the above would be good for Wikibooks, like Atlas Shrugged? Schizombie 06:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * yes it would, but the atlas shrugged one has plot summaries for each section. this article *really* needs an expanded plot summary first though. plus one more section in themes about "numerology and synchronicity". then i think its WP:FAC ready. Zzzzz 20:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

expanding plot summary
i guess the next task is to expand the plot summary somehow (see comment in peer review "the trilogy as it stands seems a bit tame"). hope you can help with that, as i barely remember any details at all... one easy way would be to use (i.e. summarize and paraphrase) the 6-page "what has gone before" prologue at the start of the individual edition of leviathan, which is not printed in the omnibus edition. i have it in pdf format, and could post it here, but one problem: its in german!


 * a pgraph or 2 about the use of numerology in the "themes" section would be cool as well- law of fives, 23 (numerology) etc. i have a feeling this could be a featured article with just a bit more work! Zzzzz 21:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've got the GA and L volumes, so I have the prologues in English. As for the numerology, there's the law of fives, and then the 23/17 phenomenon.  Simon Moon turns Joe Malik onto the 23 at a lecture I think, and later to the 17 in a long rambling letter, I don't recall who introduced the law of fives.  I'll try to get to this later. Schizombie 22:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu
Most of the links coming in to The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu are related to The KLF and not Illuminatus. As part of my tidying and improving the KLF coverage here it would help readers' navigation if The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu was a redirect to The KLF or a simple dab page. I've gone for the latter. I don't see any need for either Justified Ancients (KLF, Illuminatus) to have seperate articles stray from their parents.

As a result, I have cut the following text and hope you can find a home for it here:
 * The Justified Ancients of Mummu is one of the two protagonist 'secret societies' in "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. In the books, the JAMs are in a seemingly endless struggle for control of human culture, government and power with their enemies, the Illuminati. Whereas the Illuminati's tactics are to restrict, govern and control the populace, the JAMs' aim is to bring about anarchy and an end to any possibility of ultimate control.

and:


 * In Toronto, Ontario, Canada a group calling themselves the Justified Agents of Mummu stage public acts bent on provoking people to pay more attention, and promote mystery.

--kingboyk 18:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say the Toronto group is non-notable and doesn't need to be included anywhere. Someone can probably make sure the JAMs are well-represented in the plot summary here. DenisMoskowitz 21:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * That latter one is mentioned here Mummu (disambiguation) Schizombie 22:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd agree regarding the Toronto group. Mummu (disambiguation) is a messy page that could probably be a redirect too; alas the library is about to close and I have to go so I can't do anything about it right now. --kingboyk 21:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Tidied into a nicer dab page. --kingboyk 14:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I can probably work the first paragraph into The KLF article, as a nice little overview of what the name they chose to use means. I'm feeling rotten at the moment so I'll have another look when I'm feeling better, unless someone else wants to oblige. --kingboyk 16:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I've found a suitable home for the text in The_KLF. --kingboyk 17:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Shea's Illuminati Expansion Set 1 Introduction
There might be some other better quotes from Shea's introduction to replace the one I put in, or to drop elsewhere in the article:
 * Indeed, do many strange things come to pass. When Robert Anton Wilson and I first became aware of the Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria and the extent of their conspiratorial power over historical events, we soon realized there was nothing to stop them from taking over the world completely.  Why, then, did they choose to lurk behind the scenes, manipulating people and happenings through their many guises and front groups when they could, at any time, have stepped to center stage and taken command?
 * After pondering this for a long time, we told each other, "They don't want to rule the world, they just want to play with it." (We often talk to each other in chorus.)  This struck us as pretty sick — even sicker than wanting to control the world openly.  Little did we know then that some twisted mind would come forward with something even sicker — a game in which people could play at being Illuminati playing at ruling the world.
 * Wilson and I have been accused of writing the Illuminatus! trilogy to satirize conspiracy paranoia. But while we may have been called satirists, even satyrists, we have never been accused of making a game out of the whole thing.  That remained for other and worse minds than ours to conceive.  And if the person or persons who made up the Illuminati game can be accused of whistling Dixie in the face of universal awfulness, what are we to say about the kind of people who would sit around and play such a game while outside, and maybe inside their doors, the world is going to pot?
 * An even more chilling thought: Maybe the Illuminati are behind this game. They must be — they are, by definition, behind everything.  So, play on; laugh if you will.  But while you do, could mysterious fingers be moving you hither and yon on the gameboard of the world?  Best not to think about it...

—Robert Shea

Characters
does this article need a Characters section, or can it stand without one? i guess all the major characters can be briefly described, as they show up, in the plot summary section. any opinions? Zzzzz 20:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not sure, I'll have to look at the articles for some other novels to see how common a feature that is. Schizombie 09:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Snip
Took this out:
 * Many of Wilson's books, in particular the Cosmic Trigger series, have been embraced by the New Age community and can often be found in New Age bookstores alongside textbooks on tarot card reading, crystal energy, and Feng Shui, a fact many of his fans find amusing since Wilson frequently lampoons new age beliefs.

It didn't seem to have a real place in the article, might fit into the Wilson or CT articles if it isn't in them. Schizombie 09:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

review by Ivan Stang
A review, or a defense of the novel by the Rev. Stang of the Church of the SubGenius http://groups.google.com/group/alt.slack/browse_frm/thread/20ae83196319d769/7f24423c1c79b7b8?lnk=st&q=illuminatus&rnum=2&hl=en#7f24423c1c79b7b8 Possibly stick some in where "Bob" comes up, or else in the significance or influence sections. Schizombie 09:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

lost in the mail?
couldnt find any source for this, so removed it:

These 500 pages were subsequently lost in the mail between Mexico and Los Angeles
 * I was wondering the source for that myself, although I must admit it sounds familiar from somewhere. Maybe poke into the history and see who added it, maybe they'd know. 216.162.218.124 added it. Шизомби 10:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * edit by anon user from 2003 (users only edit!) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Illuminatus%21_Trilogy&oldid=1849736
 * The 500 pages is right, and that characters and ideas made it into his other novels is right, so the Mexico and LA could be right too. I'm guessing the reason for no add'l edits on that IP is the user got an ID, but no way of knowing. Шизомби 10:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm 99% certain this orginated with an interview Wilson gave, but there doesn't seem to be an online archive of said interview. It might also be mentioned in either Illuminati Papers or the first Cosmic Trigger; I haven't read either for about 15 years. 23skidoo 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I tried searching for Mexico inside those books (and CT II&III, & Right Where You Are Sitting Now) on Amazon, but didn't find the reference in the results. But as I commented above, it does sound familiar. Шизомби 20:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Article length
It's now 41 kb long, and 32Kb is the preferred maximum length. Is this problematic, do you think? The article looks pretty good, and yet there are still other things that are possibly deserving of being added to it. Шизомби 19:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * definitely not a problem. even 50K is acceptable. there is still room for more. i just created the FAC page at Featured article candidates/The Illuminatus! Trilogy, but havent done the official listing yet (leave another day for peer review comments). is the wording ok? Zzzzz 19:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think so, although maybe add caps to the beginnings of sentences there. The first time I read "the article discusses a 1970s work of popular fiction. in comparison with the only 2 other featured articles in that category" I read it as comparing the novel with the other two novels because I missed the period, but I was just reading it quickly.  Also, Illuminatus does have some multi-media aspect (play, comic), just not the same degree as Hitchhiker's, so maybe: "although Illuminatus doesn't have the same degree of "multi-media" aspects," or something like that.  Incidentally, had you seen in the Shea article that his son is a WP editor? Шизомби 20:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Has anyone invited him to participate in the article? It's interesting he uses the term "political science fiction" to refer to Illuminatus. 23skidoo 22:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

49K now. 50K limit is only for reading text, i.e not lists, refs, see alsos etc. WP:SIZEZzzzz 20:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Influence
The Illuminoids by Neal Wilgus has an addendum mentioning "Skinnerball!!! by Don Joseph (1978) is a novel heavily influenced by Shea and Wilson's Illuminatus! but is mostly devoted to the rather unconvincing Dr. Adam Loons and his mostly unlikely sex life." There's not much online about this book. It's mentioned in Crime Fiction II : A Comprehensive Bibliography, 1749-1990 by Allen J. Hubin, which calls it "Skinnerball!! in Pursuit of Them." Possibly The Illuminoids itself should be mentioned in the article, having many references to Illuminatus! in it, and an introduction by RAW. I'm not sure if The Illuminoids or Neal Wilgus satisfy notability enough for their own articles, but good articles could be written on both. Шизомби 05:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about the Illuminoids. I once tried to get it through interlibrary loan, and it was like I had asked for unobtainium! Which makes me suspect it is notable for the title only if anything. On the other hand, I never did get a copy, so... --maru (talk) contribs 16:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't remember where I got my copy, Loompanics I think. I have a letter from the author somewhere or other too, or used to have.  Amazon and Abebooks have copies of Illuminoids; there were several printings.  Amazon has about 19 books that appear to cite to it (three of them are by RAW). Шизомби 20:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Featured article candidate
thx to everyone who contributed to or commented on this article in the past few weeks. this article is now up for "featured article" status. please go to Featured article candidates/The Illuminatus! Trilogy to vote Support or Oppose with your comments. Zzzzz 17:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of the criticisms there that should be addressed:
 * 1) Lead makes no reference to the Principia Discordia, which was a huge influence on The Illuminatus! Trilogy, if I understand the article correctly.
 * 2) I don't know if it belongs in the lead, but the fact that The Eye in the Pyramid is dedicated "To Gregory Hill and Kerry Thornley could be mentioned, and that quotations from the Principia Discordia are used at the heads of some of the chapters. I added in the something about the PD and its authors to the lead. I hope it doesn't make the intro too dense.
 * 3) The way it is presented in the lead now, it seems either a little arbitrary (why only this one of the "primary influences"?), or as if Discordia is the major underlying theme. It's not as if Discordia is a household word (I don't think...). From the article, Lovecraft also seems to be quite woven in there... Are the primary influences a really major aspect of the books? If so, maybe something more like: "TIT draws on several primary...list" that sort of thing, more of an indication that the structure is built around incorporating X, Y, Z...? --Tsavage 20:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) i dont like any reference to discordianism or principa discordia in lead. it just turns lay readers away instead of drawing them in. this stuff is throughly discussed in "themes" section anway. Zzzzz 22:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) I think you're right. Шизомби 02:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) "Some of America's founding fathers are alleged to have been members of this sect." Needs to be sourced.
 * 7) I guess.  Will look.  I think this might be OK now.
 * 8) "Hagbard alternately battles and represents the Discordians and the Illuminati, the conspiratorial organizations who are either colluding with or fighting each other." What? This is confusing. If it means what I think it does, the confusion is surely deliberate on the part of the novel's authors, but that's no excuse for us to be so obscure. Our audience should not have to go back and re-read a sentence because they thought they may have misunderstood it.
 * 9) Hmm, well the book is confusing.
 * 10) "See Also 23 (numerology)" -- Why?
 * 11) Arg. True enough.  Could either be addressed by adding it into the article, or else placing an explanation next to the link in the see also section.
 * 12) "Quotations" sections belong on Wikiquote, not here. The only quotations in an article should be integrated into the prose.
 * 13) This one surprises me. I suspect there are good and featured articles that have quote sections.  Need to look at the WP book project, see if the template includes a quote section, and also if there is anything in WP's style guides regarding sections with quotes. WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate has a section "Sources, references, external links, quotations" which seems like an awful lot to group together.  But see Guide to layout: "This header is largely deprecated".  Add "Think for yourself, schmuck!" - Note on a painting in Hagbard's submarine. and "Communication is possible only between equals" - A realization made by The Midget, who uses this information to his advantage. back into the text of the article, if important enough.

Anyway, they seem like minor problems that we should be able to address. Шизомби 04:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

A draft, probably need to add page cites and perhaps examples:

Numerology
Numerology is accorded great credence by many of the characters, with the Law of Fives in particular being frequently mentioned. As Hagbard Celine states the Law of Fives in Appendix Gimmel "All phenomena are directly or indirectly related to the number five." Another character, Simon Moon, identifies what he calls the "23 synchronicity principle", which he credits William S. Burroughs with having discovered. As with the previous law, it involves finding significance in the appearance of the number, and additionally in its "presen[ce] esoterically because of its conspicuous exoteric absence." One of the reasons he finds 23 significant is because "All the great anarchists died on the 23rd day of some month or other." He also identifies a "23/17 phenomenon." They're both tied to the Law of Fives, he explains, because 2 + 3 = 5, and 1 + 7 = 8 = 23.
 * i added a modified version of above to "themes" section, cheers Zzzzz 22:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Outstanding objections
jkelly: "The trilogy is an exercise in cognitive dissonance, with an absurdist plot built of seemingly plausible, if unprovable, components."

celestianpower: "dont use serial commas"
 * anybody see any?

"merge numerology section"
 * where could it be merged? she doesnt respond to my suggestion to expand it instead of merging it. is a one pgraph section illegal?

andrew levine: "put principia discordia in lead"
 * i didnt like the idea, but have had to put Discordianism in the lead now.

tsavage: "imprecise, casual, sometimes less than clear writing"
 * inactionable as it stands

Tony: "very poorly written"
 * erm.....


 * currently ZERO outstanding objections. Zzzzz 20:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, very cool.  I wish I could make the writing more compelling, feel bad about that. Esquizombi 22:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * article promoted with 20 supports and zero objects. Zzzzz 11:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool. Do you know when it's going to be featured on the front page? 23skidoo 19:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Playboy letters
One of the things that has led credence to the belief some of the book is based on reality is the citing of actual Playboy issues in the early section with the letters. Has anyone ever checked to see if those letters actually were published in the magazine? If so, this might be worth noting. 23skidoo 16:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Back in the early 90s when I was in college, I had done a lot of research on the Illuminati triggered mostly by my interest in the SJGames game, and that included looking up some of the references in Illuminatus! I've still got a lot of the things I photocopied - about a foot high.  The University library actually had Playboy, and also had a microfilm collection of underground press publications.  The Playboy thing was real, the five-pointed diagram of people and groups was real, and so on.  Unfortunately my collection is not as organizaed as it used to be and some of it may have been lost, but I'll go through it. Шизомби 20:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I dug up the diagram and the Playboy letter so far. The diagram appeared, according to the note I made, in The East Village Other, Volume 4 Number 27, June 4, 1969, page 7.  At the top of the page in large bold caps: NOOOOZ, with NEWS printed over the Os.  Below that in small print "dear reader, all news is colored ...this page is 1/2 for us and 1/2 for you...you're so sharpsharp do your own relevant news
 * The diagram appears below that, seems to be the same, though redone for the book to be neater. Then below that "CURRENT STRUCTURE OF BAVARIAN ILLUMINATI CONSPIRACY AND THE LAW OF FIVES".  I posted the text of the letter over at User talk:Mshea since his father probably wrote it and there's plenty of space over there. Esquizombi 04:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, someone scanned it here: http://appendix.23ae.com/memos.html Esquizombi 22:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Fairy tale for paranoids
One of the most famous descriptions of Illuminatus is that it is "A Fairy Tale for paranoids". This appears on the back of the 1985 Dell omnibus in lieu of a review line. The quote is attributed to Wildblood "reviewing Illuminatus! in Illuminatus!". I'm not quite sure where this should go -- there is a section in which Wildblood's quoted as reviewing "a book very much like Illuminatus!" although the Dell edition would seem to indicate the character is reviewing Illuminatus. 23skidoo 16:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno, it might depend on how much input the authors had into the cover. More praise I found for the book include Neil Barron (1995). ''Anatomy of Wonder : A Critical Guide to Science Fiction Fourth Edition, page 334 which refers to it as a "wild extravaganza" and consonantly calls it a "crazy compendium of contemporary concerns." Шизомби 04:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Play
Cool image, hadn't seen it before: http://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/image.php?id=8848&embed=yes


 * you can see scans of the entire programme (not just the cove) here: http://home.hetnet.nl/~motinni/Illuminatus!/ILL%20at%20Cottesloe/ILLCOTT.html
 * Nice! I wish they were a little better.  Would have been cool to see the play.  A couple mentions online of wanting Daisy Eris Campbell to stage a revival this year, but nothing definite, so probably just wishful thinking. Шизомби 12:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Machines of Loving Grace
Is there any indication that the name "Rite of Shiva" came from this book instead of being inspired by actual non-fictional rituals of Shiva, the major figure in Hinduism? Jkelly 18:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

yes there is (ref added to article). Zzzzz 19:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Great! Jkelly 19:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Miscellany
"Reports on developments in Texas came from [...] Allan Chapman, a knight-errant in a two-hundred-year-old crusade against the Illuminati (supposedly a worldwide conspiracy of intellectuals who now control the television networks). [...] When Allan Chapman, the Illuminati specialist, lent his support to the theory that a shot had been fired from a storm drain in Dealey plaza that day in Dallas, Garrison stated on television that the bullet that killed President Kennedy was 'fired by a man standing in a sewer manhole.'" from Epstein, Edward Jay. "Reporter at Large: Garrison." The New Yorker Volume 44, pages 35-40 (July 13, 1968).

"[Among the "Garrison buffs" and "Dealey Plaza Irregulars" was] Allan Chapman, a man dedicated to blaming much of our grief upon the Illuminati, an alleged worldwide conspiracy of intellectuals who supposedly control the television networks." from Kirkwood, James (1970). American Grotesque: An Account of the Clay Shaw-Jim Garrison Affair In the City of New Orleans, page 179.

"After she [ Helena Blavatsky ] moved to England, she continued to write and lead an inner circle of theosophists—whom she called Illuminati—until her death in 1891." from Kaiser, Robert Blair (1970). "R.F.K. Must Die!": A History of the Robert Kennedy Assassination and Its Aftermath, page 108.

Markov Chaney is not, himself, a Discordian and, therefore, cannot be an agent in Operation Mindfuck. He represents the completely random element, not beholden to the ideologies of Discordians or Illuminatus!. He's driven only by his hatred for the full-sized world.

Featured article candidates/The KLF
the article The KLF about the early-90s british electronica band heavily influenced by illuminatus is now a featured article candidate. please vote support or object with your comments at Featured article candidates/The KLF. thx! Zzzzz 12:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The Killers in AMA?
I posted this on the talk page for The Killers (band), but I suspect no-one there understoof the reference, and probably just ended up at American Medical Association. Anyway, does anyone else draw any loose parallels between the AMA and The Killers? It's most emphatically not the kind of music I usually listen to, but I feel drawn in.  B. Mearns * , KSC 12:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)