Talk:The Incredible String Band/Archive 1

1960s
I love that whoever wrote this had the inspiration to write "way back in the 1960s". For those who don't know it's one of theri songs titles.

Origins
Scottish band? But surely we can't neglect the Welshness? It would be terribly wrong to do so. (Jack Haddad 18:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC))


 * Can't neglect the Welshness? Are you referring to the vague Celtic spirituality of certain songs? I'm not sure how you can classify them as anything other than a quintessentially British group, which would helpfully remove any confusions such as this. That they were Scottish in location and nationality isn't something to dispute. - Owen Hanner


 * None of them were Welsh as far as I know anyway. Actually, where was Clive from? Liam Markham 17:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Clive Palmer was born in London. Most of the ISB (but not Mike and Rose, except occasionally) lived collectively at Penwern, near Newport in Pembrokeshire, Wales, between about 1968 and 1972. Ghmyrtle 22:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Only two paragraphs?
ISB was, at one time, the biggest band in the UK, at a time when the UK dictated musical trends to the world, making ISB perhaps the greatest band in the world for a moment in the late 1960s. Surely they deserve more than the two paragraphs afforded them on Wikipedia... Cravenmonket 03:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, this is Wikipedia so if you have information to contribute, then you know what to do: be bold!


 * Atlant 20:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Haha! I'm far from an expert - indeed, I came to the Wikipedia page on ISB looking for more information! Point taken, though. Research by myself needed... Cravenmonket 15:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Problems with this article
This article contains no references and is riddled with POV and weasel words and is lacking in crucial detail(the folk scene in Scotland that they emerged from, where in Scotland they are from, no mention of their adherence/involvement(whatever you call it) with scientology, relationships within the band and so on . And you can't describe The 5000 Spirits... as "an audaciously eclectic mix of bookish folk music, hippy love songs and Eastern modalities", because it OR and weasel words, you can quote someone else saying it but you can't and that just one example. Also "U" has a quote “a surreal parable in dance and song” Maybe it is, I wouldn't disagree, but who am I agreeing with? You can't put in a quote and not ref it or say who said it, you might as well put the whole article in quotes. IMHO these guys from 66 to 70 produces a body of work that is almost unrivialled in popular music for sheer joy and inventiveness, they deserve better, I will try to help--KaptKos 09:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC) "A surreal parable in dance and song", as anyone superficially familiar with the mentioned body of work, is the subtitle of the album itself. Should any mention of an album title contain a reference to the artwork? Maybe going a bit too far here... - Scraps


 * Anyone with a superficial understanding of how to write articles for encyclopedias would know that these articles are written with people with no knowledge of the subject in mind so that they can gain a usefull and verifiable grasp of what its about and not have to fill in any blanks, contend with random unsourced quotes, opinions and original research--KaptKos 10:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I've expanded the article and have added a few verifiable statements - see the Oz website library, back issues of Sing Out, Joe Boyd's book, etc. for more precise references. -WallyDugg, 29.11.06

Scientology?
I've added a reference to their involvement with Scientology, but have no idea how long it lasted or if they still belong today. Anyone? Rodparkes 23:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Neither mike Heron nor Robin Williamson were ever Scientologists. They were interested in the cult only as a source of ideas for lyrics in much the same way they viewed many other spiritual disciplines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.111.153  (talk • contribs) 19:39, 2 October 2009

Ted Hughes?
I can't find any mention of a Ted Hughes poem with even "The bent twig of darkness" in, let alone "The bent twig of darkness grows the petals of the morning". A google search brings up only this article. Where did it come from? Liam Markham 17:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

'On "5000 Spirits" the opening line is "The bent twig of darkness grows the petals of the morning" which is also the first line of a poem by Ted Hughes.' - I've removed this sentence due to the lack of proof. If someone can find the line in Hughes' work I'm ready to be corrected, but two points to consider: first, the nature imagery in Hughes's work is often violent (this line isn't); second, the ISB album has been available now for 39 years, and some of the people who bought it are also readers of modern poetry, so how come no-one has pointed this out before? - WallyDugg, 30.11.06

Documentary
Wasn't a very strange documentary about the band made by the BBC? If I remember correctly, the BBC crew followed them around and "went native" after awhile. Speciate 01:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The only BBC documentary I'm aware of is a short 1997 doc called "The Circle is Unbroken". Sounds like you're thinking of 1969 film, Be Glad For The Song Has No Ending. Both titles can be found more or less intact on Youtube. - Owen Hanner

Homepage down
QUESTION Why is the discography "limited"? Why can't a complete discography be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjm2426 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

http://www.theincrediblestringband.com appears to be down. Seeing as it is unlikely to return, should it be removed from the list? - Owen Hanner

No, it's up. -Bill Young (6.10.08) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wyoung515 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 06:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "boyd" :
 * Joe Boyd, White Bicycles - Making Music in the 1960s, 2005, ISBN 1-85242-910-0
 * Joe Boyd, White Bicycles, 2005, ISBN 1-85242-910-0

Discography
QUESTION Why is the discography "limited"? Why can't a complete discography be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjm2426 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Fifth largest Album Sales for a UK Band in the 60's?
I think this claim needs removing unless a citation can be found - The Kinks, The Hollies, The Animals all more likely candidates? --Banjaxed1954 (talk) 14:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the claim - indeed, that whole section - needs better references. But it's certainly plausible.  Don't forget that the bands you mention were basically singles bands - album sales in the UK (at least other than The Beatles, and "South Pacific") did not really take off until after about 1967, the period when the ISB were certainly among the best sellers among those people who bought albums.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought that Pentangle's Basket of Light album would have outsold ISB on its own. Having said that, I do own four ISB albums from the period, but even then I think they were probably the only copies on my particular Sheffield council estate! Sorry I'm unsigned - never contributed before... --Banjaxed1954 (talk) 14:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently, Basket of Light and Hangman's.. both reached # 5 on the album charts. Set up an account and join us!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

OK According to Guinness book of British Hit Singles & Albums the ISB had a total of 29 weeks on the album charts in the 60s (mostly Hangmans plus some Onion and ISB) - the rest were 70s or later, total 37 weeks. Some other examples are Shadows 400+ weeks, Kinks 107 weeks, Animals 83 weeks, BeeGees 83 weeks, Searchers 87 weeks and so on....I know weeks on the chart is not actual sales - and you probably had to sell more albums to get on the chart at the end of the sixties than at the beginning, but even so I think the claim in the article is very unlikely to be correct. The Shadows only had 20 weeks on the chart in 67/68 the same period as ISB and peaked at no 8 (mostly around 30 though). Anyway Hangman's did get to number 5 so at that moment in the 60s at least they were the 5th top selling album band! --Banjaxed1954 (talk) 14:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Having searched through my library of books, I can categorically state that the claim is nonsensical. The preceding comments regarding weeks on the chart in the 1960s is one good indicator.  The second point I would make is that any claim over sales figures will be unsubstantiated and liable to hyperbole, for the simple reason that no accurate sales figures were even recorded at that time.  Accurate sales figures are a relatively recent phenomenon (1980s onwards). Equally I would bet, based on weeks in the UK Albums Chart and chart placings alone, I could find 20 or more acts with a stronger claim over the whole decade.  If I could be bothered.  Finally, as you all know, but it is worth reiterating, any claims about the band need verifiable sources - and I will guarantee that no reputable, reliable source will substantiate any such sales comparison.  Finally, finally, Basket of Light anyone - how you been at the wine gums again, Ghmyrtle ?!?


 * Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. The UK album chart positions for the ISB - from here - are:-
 * # 25 - The 5,000 Spirits Or The Layers Of The Onion (1967)
 * # 5 - The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter (1968)
 * # 34 - The Incredible String Band (1968 - sic - I don't know if this is an error for Wee Tam and the Big Huge)
 * # 30 - Changing Horses - 1970
 * # 30 - I Looked Up - 1970
 * # 34 - U - 1970
 * I've corrected / clarified the claim in the article - at one point they had the 5th best-selling album in the country! Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Apologies if my earlier comments seemed a bit strong - no offence meant. To confirm it was ISB's debut album that charted in 1968, sales of their June 1966 issue being revitalised following the success of Hangman. The double LP did not chart in the UK. Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2010 (UTC)