Talk:The Independent/Archive 1

The Indie?
I've never heard of it called the Indie...always thought its nickname was "the Indy" e.g.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1813226,00.html

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/article/200406/indys_extra_big_read_takes_on_guardians_diminished_g2

Liberal and European

 * It is a liberal and European newspaper.

We are all aware that the Indie is a liberal newspaper (although the exact defintion of a liberal is unknown) but a 'European newspaper'? Strictly speaking, all British newspapers are European, as the UK is a European country. Do you mean pro-Europe as in pro-EU? In which case, the Indie is also pro-human-rights, anti-fox-hunting, etc, so why mention this in particular? Or do you mean that is published in mainland Europe?


 * The readership is predominantly southern, based in and around London.

IS there any concrete evidence for this? Are most of its readership from the South of England or Londoners? Please cite sources. -- Axon Wed Jul 16 15:31:38 GMTDT 2003


 * I agree I've removed the offending items. Be bold. Mintguy 14:59 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Page move
I moved this from The Independent newspaper to The Independent, firstly because the latter is the title, and secondly because there is no necessity for "newspaper".

Editors
"Brendan Hopkins headed Independent News while Andrew Marr and Rosie Boycott were made editors of both the broadsheet publications (the other being the Belfast Telegraph)"

I have changed the above as it is incorrect. Marr was made edtior of the Independent, Boycott was made editor of the Independent on Sunday. The Belfast Telegraph though now owned by INM (Ireland) was at the time owned by Trinity Newspapers which merged with Mirror Group Newspapers to form Trinity Mirror. jason@eastbelfast.com

Anti-Israel
I have removed the general classification of an Independent reader as "anti-Israel", as although the paper frequently objects to many aspects of Israeli policy in the conflict in that area, referring to readers as "anti-Israel" itself is both an over simplification and inaccurate since few would object to the existence of the state of Israel or condemn every aspect of the country.

Out-of-date figures
"The paper is currently losing around £5 million a year, but as of March 2004, projects a return to profit by 2005."

Does anyone have any more recent figures? Thanks. Wozocoxonoy 17:02, 28 September 2006 (GMT)

Robert Fisk

 * Arguably Robert Fisk is the best known syndicated controversial journalist to feature in The Independent 

Attempted to improve this paragraph, suspect it is still not quite right. AndrewMcQ 20:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I know there has been a lot of discussion about the issue of the papers political views, but i really feel that the independent is a left wing newspaper, indeed i would go as far to say that it is a left wing version of the daily mail. By this what i mean is that, like the mail, it will select news stories that reflect its political views. There is nothing wrong with this, but how often does the paper effectively devote a front page to a comment? For me this is the most left wing of british newspapers, not that that makes it left wing on the grand scale of things.

New Logo?
Can anyone explain the reason for the red logo with the eagle in parentheses? It's on the front page as of this post. Its location is http://www.independent.co.uk/template/ver/gfx//RED_INDY_LOGO.gif --Wasabe3543 02:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, today Bono is a guest editor with half the proceeds going to Product Red Mr Weeble  Talk Brit tv 18:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Andrew Marr's redesign
It might be nice to point out that although the 1996 redesign was short lived, the only differnce between it and the 2006 paper is the size. Andrew Marr might have got it wrong, or perhaps was just a decade too early. Djarra 17:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Graphic style
To my mind one of the most distinctive aspects of The Independent has been its approach to the use of illustrations. From the early days its photography was head and shoulders above the other UK newspapers, and more recently it's tried bizarre devices like front page headlines containing pictures instead of words. I feel this ought to be mentioned, but I don't think I'm able to do it justice. Any takers? --Stewart Robertson 12:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please check these changes?
Could someone please check these changes?
 * 
 * 

I've been cleaning up after this IP a bit tonight, and the changes look POV to me, but the whole section they're in looks like it could do with some references. Could someone please step up to the plate and look after it? Chovain 12:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Although the editor does have a point - the Independent quite often features editorials on the front page, I don't think the comments referring to Saddam and Hezbullah are justified - especially given the recent headlines condeming Israeli action in Lebanon. I have also removed the line about the paper seeing itself as an edicated tabloid as this is a bit suspect - Both the Times and the Independent are essentially of a broadsheet style in a tabloid size format and as such the title is misleading. michael  Curtis talk+contributions 21:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree the point about editorials on the front page is a good one. It's a very distinctive feature of the paper.--Stewart Robertson 10:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Just edited the passage for style - hopefully it reads a bit more smoothly now Avaya1 17:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it does.Stewart Robertson 10:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Lib Dem support?
"It supports the Liberal Democrat party in Britain, which is in favour of.." - I wasn't aware the Indie or Sindie had come out in support of any party, although I am only an occasional reader to be fair. Is this a mistatement, or have I missed something? Can someone provide a citation? Badgerpatrol 01:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The Independent recently has not directly shown support of any party. During the last General Election the Indie stated it favoured a 'hung parliament'. Although, it does show indirect Lib Dem support, by raising, and agreeing, on similar points. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Saiyanora (talk • contribs) 17:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe the whole point of the paper (right down to it's name) is that it is independent of any political party, and a similar position in the political spectrum to the liberal democrats on many issues does not constitute support.137.138.46.155 15:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Edits by User:Keith-264
I reverted a single, wide-ranging edit by User:Keith-264 which included stylistic, tonal and factual alterations. Some of the changes I agreed with; some I didn't; but making the changes as a single edit gave me no opportunity to review them individually. Also, the edit was incorrectly marked minor and lacked a summary. (Keith-264 is a new editor, so these things can be forgived.) EdC 21:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
The Independent On Sunday article is a copy and paste job from here (with a few minor changes). There is little point duplicating content, thus I propose a merge. If there is no consensus for this, then two redirects, The Independent on Sunday and Independent on Sunday, should resolve there instead of here. I'll give it a few days then, be bold. Rockpock e  t  02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

A question
As there is a fixed policy on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles/Policy saying that the Beatles has to be written with a lowercase 't', I wonder what your thoughts are about using that policy for this page, and if you would agree or disagree. I thank you. andreasegde 16:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Liberal?
I've just been browsing newspaper articles checking out political allignments. All of them have variations of right and left except this one which just has 'liberal'- eh? Shouldn't that be explained upon somewhat? Liberal hardly matters, liberal can be far right or far left or anywhere in between...--Josquius 15:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * They're liberal in the UK (original?) sense: free speech, civil rights, etc. A position on the left-right spectrum wouldn't communicate much information. EdC 04:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * In my opinion it would be better defined as a Centre / Centre-left newspaper, since in essence, that's what it is. You cannot call it liberal, since in the original British term liberal, The Independent doesn't qualify -- however I can see where The Independent can be classified if you use the American meaning, which basically means centre / centre-left.--A.szczep 08:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't think you could call the Independent a centre/centre-left newspaper: it's a liberal newspaper. The whole left/right-wing dichotomy doesn't work very well when it comes to liberalism; sometimes the Indy epouses "left-wing" values such as international law, the environment, fairer taxation, human rights... other times it seems more "right-wing" when it talks about privatisation of the Post Office or NHS. I think liberal is a more accurate description. User:Chid12 11:14, 16 August 2006.

I have changed "liberal" to "left-wing" in the infobox because it was next to "Political allegiance", and I'm sure most Britons on here would agree that in Britain, the word liberal is not generally used in a political sense - it is normally only used in the social sense, ie, tolerant of other people's different behaviours and beliefs.

If anyone disagrees with the change, then could you please tell me what your exact British political definition of the word liberal is, because even if you use it in the British political sense, I think that it basically means centrist (with my point being that the Indy is left-wing). Whether the Lib Dems are currently in the centre or are centre-left, I believe that in the past, the old Liberal party were in the centre, in between the Conservatives on the Right and Labour on the Left. :-) Ojcookies 19:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because most Britons are more used to the terms "left-wing" and "right-wing" doesn't mean that the Independent falls into one of those categories. At the moment, the Lib Dems do seem to be a "centre-left" party; but they're also the only major party to talk about cutting taxes, privatising the Post Office, and plenty of the Orange Bookers would like to see the NHS part-privatised as well. Those are certainly not left-wing policies. The Independent's editorials broadly follow the Lib Dems' (though not without exception) and to call them a left-wing newspaper is oversimplifying the issue. Though the term "liberal" is often associated with being "left-wing" in the UK, this is an oversimplification which I think wikipedia is beyond. I think the authoritarian/libertarian axis is becoming more and more familar, and so political ideologies such as "liberalism" and "libertarianism" are becoming more and more recognisable and understood. I think using the term liberal is more accurate than left-wing and I think the editorials of the Indy confirm this. User:Chid12 02:29 28 August 2006


 * Hi Chid12! Firstly, don't worry, I'm not going to change this again, but I just wanted to give a couple more thoughts on the subject.
 * I don't actually read The Independent regularly, so when I said before that the Indy is left-wing, I was basing that on their front pages (anti-Bush, pro-immigrants, drugs comparison etc). But if their editorials talk about cutting taxes and privatising the Post Office, then that balances things out, and does put them roughly in the Centre. In Britain, I believe that the political definition for liberal does roughly mean centrist. So that's alright in a sense, but I still think that it's a bit fuzzy - as I said before, in Britain, most people don't use the word liberal in its political meaning, and in America, it is clearly used to mean left-wing, so I have two alternatives for you:
 * (a) Like The Daily Telegraph whose political allegiance is Conservative, and The Daily Mirror's which is Labour, how about putting the political allegiance as the party for which the paper most supports, so for The Independent as Liberal Democrat?
 * (b) Or, how about putting it as Liberalism, as that's more precise, it's where Liberal redirects anyway, and it would be clear for any Americans looking at it that it wasn't purely left-wing? Ojcookies 20:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the "radical centre" label? The Independent doesn't have any political stance per se ... If the Independent is left wing, we need a new label left of left for the Guardian. Or are "we" using left for non sensationalism or "high brow" and right for straight out sensationalism? Strange systems of measurement here ... --Tene 19:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

A very pedantic query
I rearranged the order of some of the contributors to maintain alphabetical order and placed Andreas Whittam Smith according to his last name. However, I was wondering whether he should in fact be placed according to 'Whittam' as this seems to be an unhyphenated double-barrelled name, rather than Whittam being a middle name. I apologise for my pedantry.

SteveRamone 03:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Independent Traveller image
It's a dreadful picture and I'd question the need for it in any case. At least replace it with a better quality picture. SteveRamone 17:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Website
For me, the Website of the newspaper "The Independent" is accessible only with an access code. If this is the typical behavior, maybe there should not be the link, or at least a disclaimer? -- Burkhard.Plache (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Full Colour?
A while back The Guardian printed a segment on The Indie being run eventually in full colour (see final paragraph): due to a change in ownership. Does anybody have any updates on this, and more importantly, is this an article-worthy update? If this changeover eventually happens, it certainly deserves mention in the article I believe, but I've raised this because every newspaper (including The Independent itself) seems to have gone silent on the issue.

Has anyone seen, heard or read otherwise? Edit: Actually - looks like there's no need! Monday, Sept 15th '08, The Independent announced that it would be changing over to full colour in just over a week's time. Now we know!

Edit: There's been a price hike to £1, the newspaper has completed the changeover to full colour, and the Centre-Left part of the Political Allegiance box redirects to Centrism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.18.238 (talk) 20:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Tagging article for Unsourced info
There is just a lot of unsourced info on this page that is in violation of WP:BLP and the most controversial will be removed very soon unless sourced. Also, changed the POV interpretation of the Independent article on investigation of possible Israeli uranium bomb to one that actually reflects what the article says. Plus Blair quote WP:UNDUE and I couldn't find any link to the Independent's reply so please find one before you quote what it says. Will look for a few more possible dead links. Needs some updating as well. Carol Moore 17:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc

“compact” v. “tabloid”
On 10 April 2005, this article was amended to assert that the Independent is a compact newspaper. The distinction between “compact” and “tabloid” is one of quality:
 * A compact newspaper is a broadsheet-quality newspaper printed in a tabloid format

To declare that the Independent is of “broadsheet-quality” is a judgment of value, an expression from a point of view. Granted that one might think that broadsheet-quality is pretty poor; it is none-the-less considered to be higher than other qualities. If someone would like to provide a cited quotation in which the opinion of some notable is that the Independent is of broadsheet quality, that's fine. But Wikipedia itself should neither embrace nor reject such an opinion. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 03:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * By your own admission - given the distinction that you have rightly identified - "tabloid" implies some kind of value judgement just as much as "compact" does, yet you seem quite happy to plonk that description here, apparently simply because you prefer it. Do you have a "cited quotation" that it is a tabloid? Why does "compact" need one, but "tabloid" apparently not? Do you actually know what you're talking about, as you dive in to repeatedly change what has been a stable and accurate first line for four years? The Independent is simply not a "tabloid newspaper", as that term is used and understood in the UK, and we no more need a source for that than we need a source, as the cliche goes, for the statement that water is wet. The (admittedly slightly ungainly) phrase "compact" refers specifically to those newspapers in the UK, like the Independent, which shifted from the broadsheet format in recent years. However, just to indulge you, I spent two seconds on Google and found this and this. --Nickhh (talk) 13:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No, Nickhh, as a point of simple logic, I did not admit that “tabloid” implies a value judgment; and if “tabloid” must involve a value judgment that a paper is not of broadsheet quality, then the definition of “compact” contradicts itself. Do I have a citation that the Independent is a tabloid?  Sure, here it is:
 * “‘The Independent’ launches tabloid version to give readers a choice”
 * That's an article from — that's right — the Independent, which is a “reliable source” when it comes to its physical format — which is exactly what the word “tabloid” identifies.
 * As I have stated explicitly, “compact” needs one because it is defined in terms of quality; “tabloid” is not, regardless of where your thoughts might leap when you read “tabloid”. (My thoughts go to unkind places when I read “journalist”, but it would hardly be proper for me to replace it with a term of praise where I encounter it on Wikipedia.) We may rest assured that when the Independent called itself a tabloid, it wasn't impugning its own quality. And, as I have also stated explicitly,  any citation for the Indy being compact will at best establish this to be the opinion of some notable source.  The citations that you provide seem fine for that purpose. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 18:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you don't understand the difference between a statement that a "newspaper X is published in a tabloid format/version/size" and the statement that "X is a tabloid newspaper" then please go and do some proper research into this, or discuss the matter with someone who does understand the terminology here and what it implies when it is used. It's not your fault that you don't, but please don't stubbornly edit war that ignorance onto pages here once the error has been pointed out to you. I'm not making this stuff up you know - it's not just about what leaps into my mind or what I happen to think about the quality or otherwise of the Independent's reporting, and also has nothing to do with "POV" or whatever WP rule you wish to dredge up to justify this nonsense. No other editor who has come by this page in the last four years seems to have thought that the Independent should be described specifically as a "tabloid newspaper". However I am not going to edit war over this, some other passing editor will spot it at some point and no doubt change it eventually. --Nickhh (talk) 19:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Nickhh, perhaps you can begin a version of Wikipedia with your new grammar of adjectives, but the English-language Wikipedia is not the place for it. None-the-less, I do not object to replacing “tabloid” with the somewhat redundant “tabloid-sized” if that would make you or others more comfortable.  My objection is to having Wikipedia claim that the Independent simply is of this-or-that level of quality, which is entailed if the Independent is called “compact”.
 * Calling upon the authority of unnamed others is poor support for your insistence that I'm somehow ignorant. I really don't much object to a personal attack if you can at least make a reasonable case for it. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 20:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, "compact" simply refers to - as I have pointed out - a former UK broadsheet which has in recent years chosen to print in a tabloid format. There's an element of continuity and simple description of fact there that you may have missed, or may not be aware of, out there in the US. I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "new grammar of adjectives", but you would appear to be one of those slightly pompous and self-proclaimed experts in language who nevertheless has a very slim grasp of the nuances of language in different cultures, or even the concept that phrases can be used in a non-literal sense. I look forward to discussing with you whether "Fleet Street" newspapers actually need to be based in that road to be so described, or whether a documentary which purports to investigate the reality of life in Toxteth is a "reality TV show" or not. And I don't feel the need to quote sources for what, at least to most people who live in the country where the newspaper in question is produced, is the blindingly obvious. Or to italicise random words in a vaguely patronising manner. --Nickhh (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Rather than pointing out the meaning of “compact”, you're been asserting a meaning. In my very first comment here, I quoted the definition of “compact” used in the article to which that word was linked.  I've linked to the relevant article (and to a reliable source for the use of “tabloid” in reference to the Independent), while you've simply invoked your own authority and that of unnamed parties when it comes to the meaning here of “compact”, yet you accuse me of being a “pompous”, “self-proclaimed expert”.  Get a grip. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 02:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * My grip is fine thanks, although I'm a little bothered about whether I'll ever get the 15 minutes I've spent on this inanity back. Even though it should not have been necessary, I have of course shown you where the Indy is referred to as a "compact", both by the paper itself and by a rival paper (did you not read them? There's another one in the article now). There is no reason not to have the article use the wording I put in, so that both "tabloid" and "compact" are applied to the format, as happens out in the real world. Stop trying to remove the "compact" part, for no apparent reason other than that you don't appear to understand anything about British newspapers and how they are described and categorised. What is your problem here? You've got the word "tabloid" in now, so go and pick a fight over something else and leave this one as it is. --Nickhh (talk) 12:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ps: I really dislike pointing people to dictionary entries, but since you insist that I am just asserting things without evidence, perhaps you could look at this and this in order to understand the point that "tabloid" is not simply a neutral word meaning small-sized, and that in using it, one has to be clear about whether one is talking of format or style/content. Add that to the descriptions of the Independent and its format as being "compact" that I have pointed you to from the outset, and perhaps we can lay this little piece of absurdity to rest now. It doesn't matter if you don't believe that the paper deserves the term, or that I haven't "proved" that it deserves it, it's the term that's frequently applied. How is anything going to be done in this place if every tiny and basic point has to be quibbled over like this? --Nickhh (talk) 14:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * pps: feel free to peruse some of these book snippets as well. --Nickhh (talk) 15:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Nickhh, again, showing that some sources call the Independent “compact” isn't the same thing as showing that “compact” has the meaning that you keep asserting that it has. The sources that you cited don't demonstrate that the term is neutral. (While the Wikipedia article “Compact_(newspaper)”, to which you keep linking the word in the article, makes it plain that the word carries implications of quality, as do some or all of the book snippets to which you link.) Nor is the article to which you've added a citation helpful; as the Wikipedia article “Compact (newspaper)” makes plain, the term “compact” in relation to newspapers began to refer to quality in the wake of the format switch by the Independent; you cited an article from before the switch.
 * Your dictionary citations show that amongst the definitions of “tabloid” can be disparagement; that was never in dispute. They also show that “tabloid” doesn't necessarily carry such meaning, which is why it has been easy to find even the Independent using this word in reference to itself.  I'd already said that I'd raise no objection to your replacing “tabloid” with “tabloid-sized” (or somesuch), but you are for some reason intent on having a word which insinutates quality.
 * Noting that the term “compact” is “frequently applied” to the Independent is perfectly irrelevant to the issue. The Independent is frequently considered to be a paper of high quality.  People frequently have that point of view.  But Wikipedia isn't supposed to embrace points-of-view.
 * The snippets to which you refer me don't resolve the issue in the manner that you wish, for example, The History of the Times by Stewart defines “compact” to mean “tabloid-sized quality daily”. (No good reason for him to include “daily” in there, but it's your snippet.) —SlamDiego&#8592;T 19:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I can't cope with this anymore, it is truly nuts. I've put out a request for someone else to have a look at this.--Nickhh (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh and you've got your work cut out. Several other pages refer to their subjects as being "compact" newspapers. And you should probably gut the Compact (newspaper) page itself, since it lists about 20 or 30 "compact" newspapers, which presumably also constitutes just as serious a WP:NPOV-breach. Oh and by the way, the source I cited in the lead was from after the Indy went compact/tabloid, not before. I'm not sure how you got that one mixed up (or how it makes any difference as it happens), but I suspect it's because you can't tell the difference between the main paper and its Sunday version. Which tells us quite a lot, I guess. --Nickhh (talk) 20:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Nickhh, you keep claiming that you're not going to keep-up your attempt to hold onto the term “compact”, and yet you continue. Please at least spare me the fulmination about how you're going to quit.
 * Also, please spare me the wax. It isn't my job to fix everything wrong with Wikipedia, nor am I obliged to let some things pass unless I do edit every other article.
 * It would be a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for any reference as to the present meaning to date from after the present meaning took hold; that is th difference that the date of a reference makes.
 * Again, your personal attacks don't even have a reasonable foundation. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 00:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I have said that - and meant it - because I find this kind of edit warring over tiny details (none of which should really be controversial or difficult) all too common and all too frustrating, and to even engage in it is to somewhat indulge the person who kicked it off in the first place. However on reflection I don't see why one individual editor should be allowed to impose their idiosyncratic and pedantic interpretations of the world on articles here, against what would appear to be a rather obvious consensus, both in the real world and among other editors here. Shall we recap this debate?
 * For around four years, the opening sentence of the article simply read "The Independent is a British compact newspaper". No one saw the need to fiddle with, or change that in all those years as far as I can tell
 * You then turned up out of the blue and changed that to "British tabloid", with the change seemingly justified on the basis of a sentence you'd read on another Wikipedia page combined with a pretty overzealous interpretation of what WP:NPOV requires
 * You then proceeded to edit war over this
 * In a bid to defuse what seemed to me a fairly petty row, albeit one where there were issues of accuracy given how the terms are used in this country, I proposed a compromise version which described the Independent as simply a "newspaper" and then further on noted that it had originally been a "broadsheet" but was now published in "tabloid or "compact" format". That is, a version which a) included both words; b) attached the description to the format not to the newspaper as such; c) placed "compact" in quote marks
 * However this did not satisfy you, and you proceeded with your one-person campaign to disrupt the article and remove the word "compact"
 * I went out to seek other opinions from Wikiproject Journalism, and thought it sensible to leave the wording as broad as possible while waiting for that. Again, you disagreed and reverted out the word "compact" as soon as you logged on again.


 * And to recap the substantive debate: terms such as "quality", "compact" etc are totally standard and well understood descriptive terms and categorisations for newspapers in the UK, used by the newspapers themselves, the wider trade and by the general public (and, as I have pointed out, in scores of Wikipedia pages). I have pointed you to various links in the thread above which demonstrate this, even if you were not aware of it before now. You may assert that they imply a "point of view" and that in turn to use them is a breach of WP:NPOV, but I'm not sure how many people you would find to agree with that (we seem to have at least one now, besides me, who disagrees). Describing daily newspapers in this country as being "broadsheet" or "quality" is simply not controversial or disputed. It doesn't mean they are "better" or "higher quality", it is simply a category into which The Financial Times, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Times and The Independent have always been placed, based on a combination of their format (until recently) and their style/news priorities. The other five have always been "the tabloid press". There are plenty of descriptive terms or categorisations in the world which might be mis-read as implying superiority/inferiority of some sort, or which sometimes might in fact be intended to imply exactly that; however they are not necessarily forbidden here under some bizarre and extreme interpretation of WP:NPOV, as if it were being policed by the Spanish Inquisition or the Bottom Inspectors from Viz. Inferior goods in economics or Grand Cru in French wines are perhaps two obvious examples. And now you've edited in a needlessly clumsy phrasing, which also has an obvious error in it with a double "called". --Nickhh (talk) 14:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Correcting your recapping:
 * No, it wasn't simply “Compact (newspaper)” that prompted me to edit this article. After all, that article might have been mistaken on the point.  Rather, “Compact (newspaper)” caused me to investigate the term.  The investigation showed that, when “compact” was actually defined, a notion of quality was always included.  You have, above, finally conceded that point (“Describing daily newspapers in this country as being ‘broadsheet’ or ‘quality’ is simply not controversial or disputed.”), whereas you previously ignored or denied it.
 * The insinuation that I was edit-warring while you just undoing those edits without warring is laughable. I cited sources to defend my edit; you did not.
 * I have not campaigned to disrupt anything. I campaigned to remove a word that made an assertion about the quality of the Independent.  That “one-person campaign” was matched by your “one-person campaign” (Which became a “two-person campaign” after you sought recruits).
 * The proposition that calling the Independent a “quality” newspaper is “totally standard” and “simply not controversial or disputed” does not address the problem. Wikipedia is not supposed to be embracing what amounts to a pure point-of-view simply because it is the point-of-view of a vast majority (in the UK or more widely).
 * You have nowhere substantiated the claim now made that “quality” has a peculiar, value-free sense with respect to newspapers. If you can cite defining sources, then I would suggest that you do so, and I would also suggest that if such could be done at all then it would have been appropriate for you to do so at the outset, instead of after you'd turned this into an edit-war and flung-about personal insults and charges that you cannot substantiate. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 21:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm really not interested in debating the minutiae of what should be a very simple and uncontroversial issue, no more complex for most people than an assertion that "water is wet"; or in discussing the fallacies and inaccuracies in virtually everything you have said above. You keep telling me that I have said, insinuated or done this, or not shown or sourced that, but pretty much every single assertion you have made is wrong. I asked on the relevant project page for another opinion about the word here. No one has responded there yet (it seems to be a fairly dormant page), yet you still continued on your eradication mission (you seem to forget that I had no problem the addition of the word tabloid, which was not here originally). I have no idea whether Eleland came here by that route, but he, I and every other editor who has passed by this page in the last four years don't seem to have found any problem with the word "compact". Individual editors who try to bully and bore everyone into submission with their idiosyncratic views are a real drain on this place. Given that you removed a "POV" tag from a page that openly describes someone, without any qualification or any direct sourcing, as a "paedophile and a con-man", it is clear that I don't have to take seriously anything you say on the topic of WP:NPOV. Oh and your habit of italicising every fourth word is really f#+king annoying. I guess you know that though.--Nickhh (talk) 16:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I take it then, Nickhh, that you do not have any “reliable sources” which show that “quality” has a peculiar, value-free meaning when applied to a newspaper, so that you cannot neutralize it within the definition of “compact”.
 * The POV tag says to “Please see the discussion on the talk page.” The discussion at Talk:Sean Parlaman was nothing but an unsupported theory that Clyde Lewis had written the article, which suggestion has now morphed into a charge that I am Clyde Lewis; such speculation is resolved as a violation of WP:AGF and of WP:NPA.  The references included at “Sean Parlaman” substantiate the unpleasant claims about him. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 20:22, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment made on User talk:Eleland
Claiming that “sources of all stripe” call The Independent “compact” in no way refutes the point that “compact” carries with it a judgment about quality, which is a value judgment. It's easy to find sources that note this tie to quality; for example, The History of the Times by Stewart defines “compact” to mean “tabloid-sized quality daily”. Nor is the pejorative “bizarre” a good argument, especially in the face of sources for the tie to quality having been presented on the discussion page. It's quite clear why an editor would want an article not to itself make value judgments. What is not clear is why anyone would insist on the use of “compact”, when “tabloid format” is already in use, unless it is exactly to push the notion that the Independent is a quality newspaper. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 03:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Transcription from User talk:Eleland


 * Give it a rest. You don't like the Independent, fine, whatever, I don't even read it and I don't care. Get off my talk page. &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 04:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You're failing WP:AGF and WP:NPA. I neither like nor dislike the Independent. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 04:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * What are you, twelve years old? You think that spouting three-letter-acronyms which I've "failed" is a substitute for sensible argumentation? You're repeatedly removing a reliably sourced descriptor based solely on your personal views of what that descriptor implies. And also, get off my talk page. &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 04:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * end of transcription


 * No, it's not my sole point of view. I learned what “compact” meant (in this context) first from the Wikipedia article.  Then I found external sources that confirmed that meaning.  I cited one of them (Stewart) to you in my first comment to your talk page.  Nor do I think that “spouting” acronyms is a substitute for sensible argumentation; rather, I think that linking to the policies that you're violating (WP:AGF and WP:NPA) is an appropriate part of showing you that you need to refrain from how you're arguing.  I think that letting you know that I neither like nor dislike the Independent is the argument in this case. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 04:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This is utterly inane. Numerous reliable sources call the Indy a "compact" format newspaper. I really don't give a damn what some slightly obsessed editor thinks that "compact" implies, it's a relevant, reliably sourced descriptor. &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 04:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The word “inane”, like “bizarre”, doesn't refute the point. And, again, neither does the proposition that many sources call the Independent “compact”.  That would simply indicate that many sources consider it to be a higher-quality newspaper.  It's fine to report that many sources have that point-of-view, but not fine to side with (or against) them. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 04:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Eleland, you cannot defend a point of view with any number of ostensible “reliable sources” (as you are attempting to do). —SlamDiego&#8592;T 04:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you really expect me not to notice that you're dead set against "compact," because it could be taken as implying high quality, and yet resolutely in favour of "tabloid," which implies lack of quality? To even engage in this WP:GAMEy pseudo-argument is to give it more legitimacy than it deserves. &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 04:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not simply that “compact” suggests high quality — in the sources that I cite it definitionally entails high quality. Meanwhile, you are not “notic[ing]” that I am “resolutely in favour of ‘tabloid’”.  If you can find another term that neither logically implies nor suggests a valuation, that would be fine with me. (Again you fail WP:AGF.) But the fact is that “tabloid” does not logically imply a valuation — the Independent has been willing to use it in reference to itself, and Nickhh insisted above that “tabloid format” was free of negative suggestion. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 04:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Stop linking policy pages without even trying to explain their relevance to the discussion, especially when you're using them to imply deficiencies in editor conduct (that's a real personal attack, unlike the stuff you're complaining about.) Stop applying a blatant double standard to terminological questions and pretending that nobody will notice. You write that it's easy to find sources tying the term "compact" to a standard of quality traditionally found in broadsheets, but you know full well it's easy to find sources tying the term "tabloid" to a standard of quality less than that traditionally found in broadsheets, so what is the point? This argument is so surreal that I'm not even sure why I'm engaging in it. &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 05:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No, you've made the personal attacks on this talk page and (in comments transcribed above) on your talk page, and you've made declarations (again, on this talk page and on your talk page) which declare bad faith on my part; I'm in no way in violation of policy in noting your behavior, nor am I following a double-standard.
 * Again: The tie between “compact” and quality is in its sole definition (in application to a newspaper. The tie between “tabloid” and quality is weaker (and Nickhh has insisted that it is removed by “tabloid format”).  And I'm still happy to accept a term with an even weaker relation to quality if you can find it. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 05:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * What?? &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 05:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Since it's not clear in reference to what you ask “What??”
 * Policy against personal attacks doesn't require me to refrain from noting when you make a personal attack, nor to highlight an obvious personal attack as a personal attack; the evidence that you'd been making personal attacks (“What are you, twelve years old?”) is in this very section of the talk page, either by your putting it here or by my transcribing it. Likewise, policy on assuming good faith doesn't require me to highlight your ill-founded or unfounded, hostile claims about my motives when the evidence is right here. (“You don't like the Independent”, &c.)
 * Some words have multiple meanings, some of which are pejorative and some of which are not; “tabloid” is amongst these. Meanwhile, in reference to newspapers, “compact” doesn't have multiple meanings (though its meaning has two parts).  It means that the format is tabloid, and that the quality level is relatively high.  A word which always makes an assertion of higher quality is simply not acceptable.  A word which sometimes makes an assertion of inferior quality is sometimes acceptable, though a word which never made an assertion about quality would be best. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 05:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, Eleland, I was willing to accept a compromise, but Nickhh again returned to a conflict that he repeatedly said that he would quit, and restored a bald claim that the Independent was compact. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 18:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As you are well aware:-
 * 1) You had already changed Eleland's version with this edit here, so I was not "rejecting" Eleland's compromise. You rejected it, and I rejected your new version. And you have now gone even further and simply wiped it all, strangely claiming that this is OK, on the basis of your made-up allegations about my action.
 * 2) I have explained above my reasons for not letting you impose your idiosyncratic views on language and WP policy on this article, and despite my reluctance to get involved in a dumb edit war over individual words I am not willing to see you vandalise this page.
 * 3) I did not insert a "bald claim" that the Independent is a "compact [newspaper]". My edit clearly talked about a "compact format", as I have pointed out previously. In addition of course, it was me who originally took the formulation "compact/tabloid newspaper" out of the opening sentence, and also switched to talking about "format", with "compact" being placed in addition to and after "tabloid". I am not willing to bend over any further than this, nor should I or anyone else have to.
 * In addition to being disruptive here, you are now quite simply lying about what is happening - in particular I can't see point 3) above in any other light, given the length of the discussion here. Give it up and go away. Or show us all something that states, explicitly, that the description "compact" does not apply to the Independent's format or that it is in some way controversial, or fringey, to use it in this context. --Nickhh (talk) 18:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As you realize:
 * Had I not changed Eleand's edit is soomething like the manner that I did, it would not actually have been a compromise; just a violation of the three-revert rule. But I interpretted it as an a bona fide attempt to reach compromise noting that many used the term “compact” to describe the Independent.  But a compromise that doesn't preclude or end a dispute fails as a compromise, and you have brought the compromise to failure; so, yes, the term “compact” should be removed altogether from the lede.
 * I have cited sources which demonstrate that “compact” is a value-laden term. In your alleged explanation for your reasons for insisting that the Independent be described as compact, you have ignored those sources, and insisted that I am being idiosyncratic in insisting that the lede of this article neither embrace nor reject a claim that the Independent is of higher quality.  Without showing (other than by your own decree) that the term is not value laden or that there is some excpetion to WP:NPOV for this article, your alleged explanation is no explanation.
 * Your previous edit wikilinked to “Compact (newspaper)”; you cannot have it both ways. That article to which you linked (like the other source that I cited) plainly stated that compact newspapers are of higher quality.  Your claim was bald exactly in the sense that it reports the Independent to be of higher quality, as opposed to noting that many say or view it to be of high quality.
 * The history of this discussion is right here on this page. I trust that anyone without an ax to grind can see that I have nowhere lied, and that you have repeatedly breached policy.  I have never raised the issue of WP:FRINGE; I have repeatedly raised the issue of WP:NPOV.  I have no fear of your threat to report my edits as vandalism. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 19:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I see you are still choosing to be disruptive. If all you really want is some sort of little victory, can't you count the change from "is a compact newspaper" to "is published in tabloid, or "compact", format" as enough? You are deleting well-sourced material on the basis of some highly individual assertions about what WP:NPOV entails, and simply repeating your mantra that it is "a value-term", while raising bizzare non-points and pedantry on the talk page. If this page said the Independent was "one of Britain's best papers", I'd be the first one taking that out as a genuine POV issue. But that is not what we are talking about here, by some way. --Nickhh (talk) 19:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Your argument here is based entirely upon impugning my motives, rather that on addressing the actual points that I have made from the outset. Again, Stewart and others define “compact”, when applied to a newspaper, to mean not merely a format but a quality level.  It is fine for Wikipedia to report that many regard the Independent as a newspaper of higher quality (which is all that your citations establish); it is not fine for Wikipedia to adopt (or to reject) that value-judgment as itself fact.
 * You recognize that the article should not say that the Independent is one of Britain's best papers; but there's still PoV in claiming that it is amongst the higher-quality papers. Since “compact” (as per Stewart and others) makes that claim, Wikipedia cannot call the Independent “compact”. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 19:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's becoming hard to discern what your motives might otherwise be. I have addressed all your points - for example you may have missed the lengthy "recap" I made just above the start of this sub-thread, where among other things, I cover the "quality" issue and what it actually means in this context for the 4th(?) time. It is - alongside the description "compact" - a fairly simple issue of categorisation of British newspapers. You are unfamiliar with the terminology - fine, but don't fight over it as if you know what you are talking about. If we want to go swirling down the plug-hole of theoretical pedantry together, I could claim that Stewart's view that "compact" means "quality" is simply one interpretation or point of view in itself, and that therefore it breaches WP:NPOV to rely on it as a reason to remove "compact" etc etc. But I'm not going to do that (and as it happens I don't see a huge gulf between Stewart's definition and my observation that "compact" is more or less synonymous with "former broadsheet"). Invoking WP:NPOV as some kind of trump card which means you can simply remove the word "compact" from the lead, even though it is a clear, accurate and standard term, is only going to work if the premise that WP:NPOV is even relevant here is correct. And even though there was no need to, in any event your slightly odd concerns were surely accommodated by changing the wording so that the lead talked about a "tabloid" or "compact" format. Are you seriously saying that The Independent is not printed in a compact format or that it is POV to say so? --Nickhh (talk) 20:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How do you reconcile a claim that “It's becoming hard to discern what your motives might otherwise be” with the fact that you began attacking my motives much earlier?
 * As I said in reply to your alleged recap: “You have nowhere substantiated the claim now made that ‘quality’ has a peculiar, value-free sense with respect to newspapers. If you can cite defining sources, then I would suggest that you do so, and I would also suggest that if such could be done at all then it would have been appropriate for you to do so at the outset, instead of after you'd turned this into an edit-war and flung-about personal insults and charges that you cannot substantiate.”
 * If you wanted to argue that Stewart and others are not “reliable sources”, then argue it, rather than suggesting it as a hypothesis that you might have employed.
 * I quite agree that “compact” is clear and standard; your claim that it is accurate entirely begs the question.
 * I am seriously arguing that “compact” doesn't simply refer to format, and I have cited sources for this. Are you, having earlier declared that “tabloid format” doesn't have the pejorative sense that plain “tabloid” ostensibly does, seriously arguing that “compact” is somehow needed to describe the format of the Independent? —SlamDiego&#8592;T 21:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)