Talk:The Invasion of Time

Picture = Spoiler

Is it really a good idea to have a picture of the Sontarans in the article? For a large part of the serial, the viewers don't know yet who the invaders are and are left wondering. --Mithcoriel (talk) 22:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with this, I came here starting episode 4 and it just ruined it for me. Nemmex 03:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Great but puzzling

I think The Invasion of Time is one of the best Doctor Who stories. I am however, puzzled by what I consider to be a glaring inconsistency in the story. Why did the Doctor bring the Vardans to Gallifrey in the first place? There is some illusion to a plan to destroy the Vardans by pretending to befriend them, but this makes no sense. The transduction barrier would have rendered Gallifrey impenetrable. Perhaps the Doctor foresaw that the Vardans would sometime be strong enough to vanquish the Timelords even with the transduction barrier? Without an adequate explanation it seems that the misery brought to Gallifrey by the Vardans cand the Sontarans are a direct consequence of the Doctor's actions.There are also some unanswered questions, like, why did the Matrix reject the Doctor? No explanation was provided for this. Perhaps, if the Doctor was connected to the Matrix, the Vardans could see the Doctor's real intentions, and he feigned the attack on his mind? Any thoughts?

The doctor's initial and unsettling deception doesn't make much sense, I agree. If they couldn't cross the transduction barrier why lower it to tempt them in for destruction? If that Vardans have so much power and knowledge already then why haven't the Time Lords heard of them and why should the Vardans need to use their technology anyway? The serial is largely remembered for the tame way Louise Jameson left. Leela should have died heroically in battle, instead of being married off. If it was being made today then of course she'd have opted to stay because she was clearly in love with Rodan! Nick mallory 10:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Perhaps the explanation is quite simply that it was written quickly to replace another, more expensive script, and there was no time to refine the plot. Even so. Never mind. The Doctor is mysterious I suppose. Yes, Leela dying in battle would have been the way to go. But no companion of the Doctor had at that time been killed off.--Gazzster (talk) 11:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What about Katarina and Sara Kingdom? (AndrewAnorak (talk) 19:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC))


 * (Though it remains questionable whether Sara Kingdom counts as a companion). By the way, I recall this as one of the weakest Dr. Who stories ever - clearly written in a rush. -- Beardo (talk) 00:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Tardis swimming pool?
In part 1, Leela appears to swim in the swimming pool, although The Doctor appears to say "fine time to take a bath". The TARDIS article states that the TARDIS has both a bathroom and a swimming pool. Also, it seems from this article that part of the fighting took place in the TARDIS swimming pool area ("At one point, a Sontaran (played by the actor Stuart Fell) nearly takes a fall after missing a short jump and landing on a pool chair"). Should the appearance of the swimming pool be noted more in the article, seeing that the swimming pool has been referenced at least a few times in the new series, like when River Songg fell into it in series 6)? 101090ABC (talk) 00:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * So long as such mention fits in with the core policies, particularly those of no original research and verifiability; that is, have such facts already been reported elsewhere, in a reliable third-party source which can be suitably cited? -- Red rose64 (talk) 11:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Naturally. 101090ABC (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Would this be a suitable source? Qoute: "The TARDIS had a swimming pool which was used by Leela. However, she refered to it as "the bathroom". (DW: The Invasion of Time)" 101090ABC (talk) 21:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, no, afraid not: it's an open wiki, see WP:SPS. -- Red rose64 (talk) 22:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Damnit, I guessed that. Well, back to googling again. 101090ABC (talk) 08:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How about this? 101090ABC (talk) 08:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Or this? 101090ABC (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Possibly this is the best source? Qoutes: "The TARDIS interior includes a swimming pool, an ancillary power station disguised as an art exhibition (the paintings include 'The Fighting Temarere', Van Eyck's 'Jan Arnolfini and His Wife' and Chagall's 'Snail' - the Doctor also has the Venus de Milo), a sick bay, and various brick walled storage areas" and "The TARDIS contains a swimming pool sized bathroom." 101090ABC (talk) 09:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The www.combom.co.uk appears to be a blog, so again WP:SPS applies. www.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk I'm not sure about. The third one (hosted at www.bbc.co.uk) is good: most of this has previously appeared in print, see these books:
 * We can use either or both of those as a ref for the swimming pool being in this story, and the first one (but not the second) for it being the "bathroom", but we can't use them for it being mentioned in anything made after 1989. -- Red rose64 (talk) 14:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wouldn`t the episodes themselves be sufficient sources for episodes post-2005? 101090ABC (talk) 15:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I can get hold of those books from my local library since I'm from Finland. 101090ABC (talk) 15:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * As has been pointed out to me, joining two episodes like that can lead to synthesis. As for the books, as mentioned above, the BBC website is based on them. DonQuixote (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Then how come at least some DoctoR Who episode articles on Wikipedia have a section on continuity, in which it is possible to reference that "something first appeared in episode X". 101090ABC (talk) 15:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * As has been pointed out to me, joining two episodes like that can lead to synthesis. As for the books, as mentioned above, the BBC website is based on them. DonQuixote (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Then how come at least some DoctoR Who episode articles on Wikipedia have a section on continuity, in which it is possible to reference that "something first appeared in episode X". 101090ABC (talk) 15:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the rub...as fans, we love to list such things, but as responsible editors we should also be careful not to stray into synthesis (guilty of straying there myself). If you feel that some of the things in the continuity sections don't hold up to wikipedia standards, feel free to trim them. Also, lately, a lot of the "appeared in episodes X and Y" stuff have been trimmed from the sections as being "trainspotting". DonQuixote (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I myself love to read those bits. 101090ABC (talk) 16:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Variant theme music
Redrose,

in re: your recent edits to Invasion of Time, specifically to the question of original research to the line "The closing credits of episodes three, four, and six feature the return of the section of Doctor Who theme commonly called the "Middle Eight", this sequence not having been heard since the Early Jon Pertwee era."

I've split your single reversion to two edits, one for the Middle Eight reference, and the other to the claim that the sequence has not been heard since the Pertwee era.

The reason I did this is because I don't really know what part you are objecting to. The first? The last? Both?

Based on your comment, I think (and I can be wrong) that you want a citation that the section of the Doctor Who theme is actually called the Middle Eight. One is not really needed since even Wiki makes the definition. You are essentially asking for a citation for common knowledge. However, Wiki does have a guideline to citing even wiki as a source, but to me it is rather complicated to cite the page, date, etc. I was never very good at doing that. If this type of citation is what you are looking for, you can add it yourself, or I can try and sweat it out and add it.

If you are objecting to the latter part, that the sequence has not been heard since the Jon Pertwee era, that does not qualify as Original Research under wiki guidelines, though I linked the wrong part of the Wiki article in the notes. It's No original research, more toward the top than what the other link jumps to. For example, Episode six of Invasion of Time has an extended closing title sequence. A source is not needed for that, because it is there for all to see and very easily. Likewise, the claim that the Middle Eight (or extended closing sequence if you are so inclined) is only used 4 times since the Petweee era until the Howell theme does not need a citation because it is there for all to see.

Let me give you another example that may be more helpful. Season 3 of the Original Star Trek had blue credits, as opposed to seasons 1 and 2 which had yellow credits. (I think they were yellow. I am colour blind.) That would not be considered original research under wiki guidlines. That would be not considered original research. It is there for the world to see. Or even the plot to Invasion of Time. It says in the final paragraph, "Leela decides to stay on Gallifrey because she has fallen in love with Commander Andred". Yet no citation. Not original research. Anyone with a television or YouTube access can see that.

By Wikipedia's standard, Original Research is "used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.". In this case, the episodes themselves are their own sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.239.236.122 (talk) 03:57, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt that these particular episodes have extended closing credits, and variant theme music. But Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Pointing out differences in the theme music, and when certain versions were last used, is trivia (even fancruft) which if it is to stay must be referenced to a reliable third-party source. You also need to source that this variant of the closing theme is commonly called the "Middle Eight" version. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Caligula
I would just like to point out that Episode 3 of this serial seems a bit like what happened to Caligula and if it weren't for the guards that killed the 'traitors' it would've ended the same way for him, too. Nemmex (talk) 03:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)