Talk:The King's School, Ely/Archive 1

Use of images
Please read the image placement guidelines on how to properly use photographs in Wikipedia. That usually means using frames, captions and resizing it to fit. Please also be aware of where it goes in the article. The image was also not marked with the copyright of the owner - if you have taken it, please signify as such. If not, if it is not fair-use, you can't use it. Also, the image of the Porta and the Cathedral could be clearer for the article, if you get a chance to take one again in daylight, full on of the porta, that'd be great. Thanks for your contributions though. ResearchUK (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

March 2007 V2
Hello all, and thank you for contributing to this school site. I'm part of the WikiProject_Schools/Assessment team, and, as it has recently been editted, then I'm reviewing this page. I'm currently giving it a grade of start on the Wikipedia 1.0 Assessment Scale and an importance of Mid on this importance scale.

My reasoning is as follows: This article is about an old school c 970 BC. However the start article could still do with some refs, but the fact that Edward the Confessor (king) went here is impressive Victuallers 21:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm.... I'm trying to find a source for this claim. A British King attending school is a very modern thing (I'm pretty sure Prince Charles was the first, in fact.  I believe, if anything Edward was educated at the old Abbey that predated the school.  However, there seems to be an irritating habit on Wikipedia of people claiming that famous people were educated at their school, if the person happened to be educated at some older institution that was on the same grounds and sometimes merely on a nearby ground.  I think having Edward as an almnus of this school is simply misleading and should be removed.  However, until I get some feedback on this, I will simply add a note on this.

further edit: As I thought, a bit of checking on the net and of course Edward was educated at Ely Cathedral that, while it "has strong links" with the school is not the same thing as the school. Sources?


 * --Zoso Jade 14:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The page is in need of an expansion, so I have marked it as such. There have also been certain cases of vandalism as is expected from a school page. Over the next few weeks I will be expanding it in general, as well as my research partner. However, other more expert information would be appreciated by people with knowledge of previous students of note or of the schools history. (ResearchUK 19:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC))

Stuff to be added:


 * houses.
 * Architecture.
 * 2XVISION copyright held photos.
 * other bits that i have marked as stub areas.

'All students enjoy an environment of trust and confidence'? Sounds a little subjective to me. I've certainly spoken to current students who in no way feel encapsulated by such a warm, fuzzy feeling. And 'Independence is encouraged, diversity is celebrated' really wasn't the case when i was punished for having too short hair. I'd flag this as NPOV, but fear my own bias is blinding me a little and I'm not so hot on the outline of the Schools project. Does seem like this is an advert for the school rather than an encyclopedia entry, though.Spetswalshe 13:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Advertising speak
Not happy with the recent changes to the house section which looks lifted straight from the prospectus. If someone from the school is changing it, please respect the rules of Wikipedia, keep it factual and unbiased. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.82.104.122 (talk) 17:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

School numbers
Does anyone have any firm enrollment numbers for the entire school, and how many staff there are? 08:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Solved! ResearchUK (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

 * [[Image:Symbol unsupport vote.svg|20px]] Quick fail since almost devoid of adequate in-line references Jimfbleak
 * Also other issues - needs careful copyediting esp wrt capitalisation, does not conform to WP:lead are just a couple Jimfbleak (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

schools assess requested
Well see above.... all those alumni are impressive but did they really go to the school? You need to add a ref to each one. This is an old school ... I would expect a few 18C and 19C notables as well. Has there never been a negative news story? .... get the refs and you will have a B... then you can consider the GA requirements. Victuallers (talk) 20:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Brian J Ford Alumni
Re: the edit made adding Brian J Ford. I couldn't see mention of this school on the alumni. Rather, King's Peterborough seem to have him on their alumni sheet, I doubt he had been to both schools, but please add him back if you have evidence that he was! Cheers ResearchUK (talk) 23:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Gutenberg
There is some further info here from a book called 'Ely Cathedral' - note pp.108 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20924/20924-h/20924-h.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rocketman89 (talk • contribs) 22:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Schools Assesment Request 2
(B/Mid) This article looks solid so far. Quite a few references. Is there a disambigious page you can link to for all schools called The King's School? That goes at the top in a hatbox. The references should be put into proper format for GA requirement. See Requirements for good articles for more infomation. If possible, increase the number of cited alums and more third-party references. Calebrw (talk) 02:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested (quick) Review
Wow, much better than when I first saw it. Refs are nearly all 3rd party. I have raised it to high, based on its age. There should I think be a longer opening section to go for GA and there needs to be 3rd party ref for every section and any challengable fact. Good that you have some anti view e.g. the drugs story. Could be more detail. I'm not very active at the schools project at present. I would ask at the schools project for final assistance of a peer review before going again for GA status. Victuallers (talk) 15:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot :) Rocketman89 (talk) 16:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Pre-GA Assessment
Please note: This is an informal one-person review. Do not consider it in any way, part of the formal GA review process. For more info on the formal process, see Good articles.

Criteria
A good article has the following attributes.
 * (a) ; and
 * (b).
 * (a) ;
 * (b) ; and
 * (c).
 * (a) ; and
 * (b).
 * (a) ; and
 * (b).
 * (b).
 * (a) ; and
 * (b).
 * (a) ; and
 * (b).
 * (b).

Results

 * (a) The prose is quite clear, with no major issues with spelling or grammar.
 * (b) No MOS conflicts that I saw. Covered everything in a fair, neutral manor.
 * 1) Many references are provided, but, all should be in correct style using citation format, which some do not.
 * (a) A wide variety of sources are used. Remember, source as much as possible, and if necessary, use a first-party source, in proper format, if no third-party source is available. Other sections, such as "Traditions" need additional in-text citations.
 * (b) Still needs a quite a few in-text citations in the history section. 3 alumni are not referenced at all.
 * (c) None that I can find.
 * (a) All the main points I can think to address.
 * (b) Not overly long in any one section, though all in all the article is relatively lengthly.
 * 1) Extremely neutral, with no NPOV issues that I picked up on.
 * 2) Seems quite stable. No edit war that I am aware of.
 * 3) Images included
 * (a) The questionable image is that of the hoop event. Other than that, good.
 * (b) Relevant with solid captions.
 * (a) The questionable image is that of the hoop event. Other than that, good.
 * (b) Relevant with solid captions.

Comments
All in all, good work on this article. As you pointed out to me, you are running of sources. For a school this old, there has to be more sources. Visit the school library if you can and look for books on the school. Also, use the same reference more than once. I've used one reference over 10 times in a single article, because it provided such a wide array of information. See WikiProject_Schools and WikiProject_Schools. What does Ofsted have to say on the school? Are there local newspapers that have published pieces on the school which may verify some of the goings-on at the school.

As mentioned in the review, don't be afraid to cite first-party sources if those are the only ones that work. I haven't viewed the school's website, but I assume it is detailed enough that one might be able to gather the necessary information from it and cite that page. If there is a page on the houses of the school, cite for each school, that not a problem, just you the  and save yourself some work (plus its the proper method).

Be sure to review WikiProject_Schools for information the alumni section. As mentioned, I would expect a longer list of alumni.

All in all this is a very solid article, with only minor changes needed to get to GA. As you know references are the key at this point.

Let me or another assessor know if you have any questions. Also, consider submitting to a peer review at Peer review as is requested before a GA nomination.

Good luck and check back soon. Calebrw (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Remaining issues
These are the remaining things to be sorted before it can be a dead-on GA candidate:
 * References need to be uniform and cleaned up.
 * Make sure there isn't too much repeated information
 * More images perhaps - I have applied for written permission for 2 more that would help illustrate a couple of points.

Stuff improved from comments of above review

 * All the alumni have got references, and have added a couple more alumni - I have literally milked the internet for all its worth!
 * Lead paragraphs have been lengthened and honed, since that is an important lead in
 * I have found references for most of the citations that were requested in calebrw's edit.

rocketman89 (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I reviewed and only found a few minor things. First, the "citation needed" at the beginning of the History section needs to be addressed.  The other thing involves the use of capitalization.  The only things that should be capitalized are actual titles, not general things.  I did a quick edit of the opening paragraph as an example.  It says the school contains a "...junior school, senior school..." etc. and originally had nursery, junior school, and senior school all capitalized.  In these cases they are being used as general terms so they wouldn't be capitalized.  Now, when it's part of an actual title, like the "Senior School of King's School, Ely" then "senior school" would be capitalized.  There were several instances of unnecessary capitalization throughout the article.  Hardly major issues, but certainly things to look for.
 * I did have a question about the title itself. I realize the school's name is "The King's School", but shouldn't the article itself just be titled "King's School, Ely"?  There were long debates about that for The Ohio State University, which officially uses the word "The" in their title, but Wikipedia naming conventions discourage using "the" in the article title except in rare circumstances (The Citadel is an example).  I'm not going to move or rename it, but it is something that may come up anyway.
 * Overall this is in great shape as an article. Those minor things were the only things I could really see.  --JonRidinger (talk) 18:10, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Jon, caught your edit, and so have started doing what you advised re: capitalisation - when you are working on something almost from bare bones, you tend not to notice your own foyballs of writing! :-D With regards to the title and 'the', how would I go about changing this, do I move the article and setup a redirect? By all means, feel free to do this if you know how to do it from memory! Thanks again, rocketman89 (talk) 18:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Use of new image
Hi guys, what does everyone thing of the licence on |this page, and specifically:

"Use of photographic imagery in this gallery is available to media and parishes. Each use should be accompanied by the credit line, "Ely Cathedral". Downloading of images for other commercial uses is allowed with the consent of the Marketing Manager, Mrs Lesley Ann Thompson on 01353 660350 or email l.thompson@cathedral.ely.anglican.org."

'Cos image is really good, and especially if we could crop it just to have aerial footage of the school area (at the bottom).

Would like to know by consensus (or precedent) whether this is going to be ok? rocketman89 (talk) 00:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If they allow commercial use with credit to "Ely Cathedral", it's likely they would allow release of the image under the GFDL or Creative Commons Attribution:ShareAlike. You will want to e-mail the marketing manager with a request for permission and have the person respond with the declaration of consent. If you're successful, upload the image under the GFDL and then send the e-mail, reply, and Wikipedia image location to permissions-en@wikimedia.org and they will archive it in the OTRS. Most of my image requests are successful, so it never hurts to ask. Without that specific license declaration, we cannot use the image on Wikipedia because under Wikipedia's Image use policy, images must be under a license that allows both commercial reuse and derivative works.--Jh12 (talk) 01:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I wrote an example e-mail request you can send at User:Jh12/Draft2. It may seem long-winded, but if successful the image's existence on Wikipedia will be as secure as we can make it. --Jh12 (talk) 02:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree. These images look like great additions. I would send the email as suggested by Jh12. Calebrw (talk) 15:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Early history
The claim that the school was founded in 970 seems doubtful and that Edward the Confessor was educated there more than doubtful.

The school's website http://www.privateschools.co.uk/king's-school-ely_54.html only claims that when Henry VIII gave the school its name and charter in 1541 it confirmed a scholastic tradition going back to the origin of the abbey in 970, a much lesser claim.

Frank Barlow's biography of Edward the Confessor http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FUeGTZhIn7cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=frank+barlow+edward+the+confessor&source=bl&ots=ekOm2fYUrx&sig=d5JpyD1Te9YbBfizKDRZ3JNmG5g&hl=en&ei=vE1RTMf3Go-I0wTDo-SBAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ely%20&f=false pp. 31-33 describes the story that Edward was given as a child to Ely as almost certainly a medieval fabrication to support a claim that he gave the abbey a charter of privileges. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Alumni mention in opening paragraph
I wonder if there is a bit too much weight given to one alumnus in the opening paragraph, especially as he's labelled as "controversial". Surely some of the other alumni are a bit more worthy of a first paragraph mention? Rob (talk) 13:27, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Edward the Confessor
Does the particular depiction of Edward the Confessor have anything to do with the school apart from his being rumoured to attend the school? It appears to be a rather random image to include here unless the mural itself is in a school building. --Fæ (talk) 10:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)