Talk:The Kingston Trio/Archive 1

The K-Trio and caps
Here are three reasons why the "the" should not be capitalized:

1.) In New York Times articles about the Kingston Trio, for instance, they always use the lower case except at the beginning of the sentence. As in, "Joan Baez and the Kingston Trio are well-known singers."

2.) Moreover, here in Wiki, Wiki rules are followed, not Web site rules or internal rules of the person/item being written about. Go to the Time Magazine article and you will see a long argument about how Wiki treats Time Mag.  Time itself calls itself Time MAGAZINE or TIME Magazine, I forget which.  After it was argued about for a long time, it was agreed that Wiki calls it Time Magazine, to meet Wiki convention.

3.) Furthermore, and just as important to me, I went to my collection of old K-Trio albums and picked up 6 of them at random. Two of them had no text on the back cover.  Of the others, however, THE KINGSTON TRIO BACK IN TOWN, says "In San Francisco a few years ago the Kingston Trio made a swift...."  SOMETHIN' ELSE says: "The new sound of the Kingston Trio...." From NEW FRONTIER: "...a new batch of ballads that reflect the Kingston Trio approach...."  And from COLLEGE CONCERT: "The voice you hear introducing this live performance by the Kingston Trio is that of...."  Case closed, as far as I am concerned.  Hayford Peirce 18:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Then why is it that on their website they use the caps "The Kingston Trio?" What ever they may have used for their name in the past, they use all caps at the begining of each word.  --Assawyer 19:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting discussion! The San Francisco Chronicle, sort of the Trio's "home paper", used a capital T in this 1976 article: but used a small t in this 2006 article:, which seems to support Hayford Pierce. (I'll have to check my ratty old "Last Month of the Year" album tonight - see if it has any text!)(Later note: It also uses a small "t" like the examples above)
 * As for wiki style, it's true we don't follow every marketing whim about capital letters and whatnot, but we do follow the legal name of the entity, which sometimes includes goofy names such as eBay. If the T is capital in their official name, we should capitalize it. If it's not, then the article should be changed to just Kingston Trio, although it's such a hassle fixing redirects that I hope it doesn't come to that. - DavidWBrooks 19:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Popularity
Another reason for the Trio's popularity was the fact that their songs could be sung without antagonising middle-aged parents. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.138.131.19 (talk) 15:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Importance Rating Of "Low"
The article is definitely not "important" in terms of "roots music" - which (and here comes a big IMHO) is a commercial/record company/radio format designation that has unfortunately been adapted by a significant number of professional musicians who have no roots in "roots" - rather like NYC John Cohen or Ramblin' Jack trying to become what June Carter or Doug Kershaw or Gabby Pahinui were born to be.

Even at that - the Kingston Trio doesn't belong in this category/project. Its success MUST be mentioned in the context of "folk" because as adamant as they were (and they were) that they were not "folksingers" and did not want to be identified as such, though they were marketed by Capitol records as exactly that, their unprecedented success literally created a mass market for acoustic and folk-type music and opened doors for musicians that extended far beyond the tiny clubs and venues in NYC and SF where most acoustic music lived prior to their arrival.

But the main article belongs in "American Popular Music" or a related category. The group gets an appropriate nod in the long and controversial Wiki article on "folk music." But they deserve recognition for their importance - which is not to "roots" music. Sensei48 05:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

Preliminary Additions
This article is an excellent start and covers major points well. I believe, though, that it needs at least three more brief sections - on the extent of their phenomenal popularity early on, the controversy that their approach to music engendered, and their lasting if under-appreciated influence. For the moment, though, I am simply replacing this good but incomplete discography with the one I developed for the Bob Shane page, correcting some minor errors, and expanding the YouTube section. I'm also moving the album cover representing the Stewart trio to the album section, replacing it with one from the KT website that Bob Shane gave me permission to use, as noted in the license. Sensei48 05:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

I'm also wondering about the "Trivia" section in terms of importance/appropriateness. "Other Songs" needs to be amended, since many of those listed are more primarily associated with other groups. More on that later. Sensei48 06:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

Undoing The Dave Guard Edit; General Notes
I reverted the "Dave Guard, who recruited..." to its original form because the statement is misleading at best. Though I think Guard was a kind of genius and the moving force behind the KT, the only objective sourcable facts on the matter are quite different. In high school (Punahou in Honolulu) Shane was a singer/musician and Guard a track star until Shane recruited Guard for a more formal performance in the Junior Carnival than the two had been doing at parties and luaus. Shane also taught Guard the rudiments of guitar. Both of these are supported by Elizabeth Wilson's interview with Guard himself that appeared in The Kingston Trio On Record (KingstonKorner, Inc., 1986) and part of which appears online at

There are larger problems with scope and accuracy of the article, as there are to a lesser degree with the Wiki articles on the group's personnel, with the exception of the extensively revised entry I wrote over the summer on Bob Shane, which I intend to use as a base and model for future edits on the group and its players.

For example, DW Brooks comment on the "ephemera" of Voyle Gilmore's recording technique of double voicing is most apt in a short general article of this nature - but an expanded and accurate explanation would be appropriate as a factor in the underappreciated significance to pop music history and the recording industry by this seminal group.Sensei48 15:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Instruments
The instruments played by the members of this group are important, and should be added to the article promptly. Badagnani (talk) 05:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it! - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Jan. 24 edits
Aside from grammar/punctuation, copy editing, and citation requests (most of which will probably come from cited pages in the book listed), I've adjusted the various references sections according to WP:CITE, WP:SOURCE and MOS. "External links" are "for further reading" links ONLY, and not links used to support facts in the article (such as such basics and names and spellings, which the official site is for). No more than five or six are to be used. Where there are general references used in addition to footnotes, then a "Notes" or "Footnotes" section is broken out separately. Finally, only one link to a site is allowed, generally to the main page; additional links to interior pages is disallowed. Oh, and the YouTube link was a WP:COPYVIO. --24.215.162.198 (talk) 14:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Beatniks.jpg
The image Image:Beatniks.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * Image:Closeupb.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --09:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

=

Fair use Rationale

a) the image belongs to copyright holder Bob Shane and appears on the website identified.

b) there are no "free" alternatives.

c) Copyright holder Bob Shane has given me written permission to use images from his website for Wikipedia articles.

d) No monetary damage would be done by downstream use.

a) the image belongs to copyright holder Bob Shane and appear on the website identified.

b) there are no "free" alternatives.

c) Copyright holder Bob Shane has given me written permission to use images from his website for Wikipedia articles.

Good article?
Is it ready to go to be assessed for GA status?Airproofing (talk) 04:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Not quite yet, I think, as I understand the GA process. Two related tasks remain: 1) provide a correctly formatted list of all sources, and b) format the 91 notes according to WP:MOS, which differs considerably from most other formats. I'll try the source list first, and that may help me understand what looks to me to be the rather tedious process of formatting the footnote/refs, which I did logically and largely according to MLA. Now, you seem to know more of the ins and outs of Wiki procedures/formats than I do, so please let me know what you think. I believe that in terms of content and style the article may be ready. Regards, Sensei48 (talk) 05:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I think we're ready to try for GA status. I added what I think is a complete source list in what I think is correct format. Also, I read extensively in the many, many Wiki pages about citing sources. The bottom line seems to be that a) they want verifiable sources, and b) they take no position on whether or not an editor should use their reference templates. Since these tend to be rather complex and at points counter-intuitive, I've maintained the modified MLA format that I've used throughout. The kindly guidelines also suggested that if there were problems with reference formatting, other editors would help.


 * Now, since I worked extensively on this, I believe that I cannot nominate it for GA. Additionally, I have to go back and check to see how an article is nominated for feature article status, because I think there's a possibility of that, too. But first things first - I'd be happy right now for GA. Thanks for the discography, the album articles (I may add some minor extra stuff to those), and all your help! regardsSensei48 (talk) 01:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I nominated this article for GA Status. Airproofing (talk) 22:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm delighted that you've done so. I think it's ready for review - at least if there are serious perceived deficiencies, we'll hear about them. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 05:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

They have camps!
My friend's dad paid $2500 to play with them at a camp in 2008. So they are doing that, as well. Citation needed :) ClintJCL (talk) 01:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Then I must be your dad's age, CJCL, because I've been to the last eight of those camps. The reason I didn't include that detail in my rewrite of this article was because the focus of an encyclopedia article needs to be "notability," and what makes the KT notable is rooted largely in its first 10 years. This might make an interesting footnote, but it's not a big part of their story. BTW - even if your dad doesn't want to pay the $$$ to participate formally, a couple hundred of us simply pay for the room, enjoy the shows, and stay up all night playing music. I've done both the $$$ thing and the informal thing, and I won't miss it as long as they keep doing it. Sensei48 (talk) 04:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)