Talk:The L Word/Archive 1

Massive Editing on the Way
In order to increase the rating of the L word article, during november 2006 it will be undergoing massive editing. A considerable part of the information provided may be replaced and new sections are to be added. Hopefully someday the article may show up in the main site! --TLW 08:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

First Massive Update

 * Season Synopses for seasons 1~3 will be replaced by shorter out-of-universe versions. In-Universe versions will be temporarily moved to separate articles until quotes can be provided for each season and episode.


 * Character cast info will be added.


 * Restructuring of first paragraphs also made.

-- TLW 03:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Second Update
Trivia within the article has been split up into references in Pop-Culture & Trivia. This has reduced the extension of the trivia section. At the same time, character list has been moved up to Cast & Characters.

The reference on pop culture section will be undergoing editing as well in order to either transform it into a separate article or to eliminate bullets from it. -- TLW 18:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The L Word Peer Review
This is basically the feedback obtained so far concerning the article's general quality, anyone up for extensive research and general restructuring of the article?

Most crucially, I think, the article needs to reorient its focus away from generally unencyclopedic content such as plot and character descriptions - which are all inordinately long and threaten to violate WP:NOT - and towards encyclopedic subjects such as real-world factors that have influenced the work, its reception by critics, the influence of the work on later creators and their projects, etc. The key guideline here is WP:WAF, which is highly recommended reading for anyone working on TV show articles. Of course, all the plot synopses could just as well be deleted as WP:OR, as they're unsourced. Also, per WP:TRIVIA, long trivia sections are bad practice. Sandstein 22:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I will be posting a to-do list on the talk page. -- TLW 00:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

About the L word's "L" revert war
As you might have noticed, there has been a little revert war going on with this article, concerning the following phrase:

The title the L Word refers to Lesbian but many L words are used as motifs in the series. In a fun spirit of Alliteration the series is literially, lusty ,lovely lady, lesbians living, loving and learning in the limelight lifestyle of Los Angeles.

As long as there is no specific citing of where this information comes from, the line is biased and should not be added to the article. (WP:Bias). -- TLW 22:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

However ALL these "l Words" are clearly displayed in the first seasons opening credits. The use of Alliteration of key themes of a body of work such as the series The L Word does not necessarily indicate a bias. The desire to spitefully remove such a sentence could be seen as Censorship. October 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.188.186 (talk • contribs) 16:10, October 4, 2006


 * A statement that the credits contain other L words (with examples) is fine, that's a basis of describing the themes of the show without partisanship or an POV. A "cute" (even if enjoyable) version demonstrates that one is a fan of the show which breaks WP:NPOV even if the comment added content to the article (which in this case I don't believe it does).  It's a fun alliterative sentence, I agree, but in my opinion it's more appropriate to a fansite than an encyclopedia entry.  Wikipedia is [not a soapbox] -Markeer 22:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think we're near needing it, but if recent problematic edits (see article history) continueso, this article should probably request temporary semi-protection. However, a couple of borderline vandalism shots aren't worth it just yet in my opinion.  Just linking the request page for editors in case it seems more urgent in the future. -Markeer 15:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the problem is the repeated deletion of the article's introduction paragraph that explains what the "L Word" means. Perhaps someone could simply add a short CITED explanation of the orgin of the "L Word" and what it means. If you look at other editors comments further down many are confused as to what the "L Word" really means. As a global village of Wikipedia editors we need to address this question. After all why are we keeping this information as a secret? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.188.232 (talk • contribs) 14:08, October 6, 2006
 * There is no secret about this! There is just no source for this assumption! -- TLW 04:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC).

The L Words Brother at Showtime Queer as Folk wikipedia article explains what that title means. This is good as the series title is obscure British slang Americans may not understand. There is a source that was found on the Internet using the search engine Ask. The quote from WWW.TVTOME.com/LWord describes the series as "The L Word is the intimate story about the LIVES and LOVES of a froup of LESBIAN friends LIVING in LOS ANGELES." I offer this up as a possible less Biased and "cute" Alliteration that if properly linked and not violating copyrights could be added. As an alternative compromise mentioning that the series uses L Word as Motifs and that the titles of most episodes begin with L is simply an innocuous statement unlikely to ruffle sensibilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.188.186 (talk • contribs) 20:13, October 7, 2006

I have just read the Cuban novel Si, Somos Lesbianas by Maria Fuentes. It details the closeted love life of two Cuban factory workers. The main desire of the two women is to stand up and declare they are lesbians but the political culture of Cuba will not allow this. This is an excellent reason why we MUST define what the "L Word" is. Stand Up be proud and embace the "L Word" as LESBIAN.Cr8tiv 5:32 22 March 2007


 * I'm a bit confused by the above comment. The show being about lesbians is stated clearly in the first sentence (at least as of this writing). -Markeer 21:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

YOU MUST read this novel Si, Somos Lesbianas if you have ANY question to why we MUST proudly declare the "L WORD" to mean only one thing and that means LESBIAN. The story of two women facing prision for love is a must read Cr8tiv 8 June 2007 6:00

Whoever still has doubts about the fact that the L word does not clearly specify that the "L" stands for lesbians, should go back to the First Season DVD's and see what they have to say. -- TLW 22:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC).

Music ???
why is the music such a prominent part of this article??--Jaysscholar 04:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it kind of takes over the whole thing, even the table of contents up front. I do like having this information available, though--it's fascinating to review.  Why don't we spawn a new page (and link to it from here) of "The L Word (Music)" or something?  Anyone know what the precedents are on Wikipedia for that sort of thing? -- PKtm 04:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, no one has commented one way or another after three weeks, so I've moved the music listings to a separate article. --PKtm 22:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Where's this page gone? Can't find it anywhere?!! -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.67.221 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 30 July 2006
 * It was put up for Articles for Deletion at the beginning of July, and was deleted after a short vote. See Articles for deletion/Music from The L Word. -- PKtm 16:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there anyway to get this page back? i'd be really interested to read about the music throughout the season..

If someone knows how to create a music page, and if it's alright to make one, I have the episode music guides, since season 1, episode one. Let me know! Lexhatesyou (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

L as a word
So which word is the "L word", exactly? Love? Lust? Lesbian? Lollipop? I am no insider to the series and would love clarification 62.178.193.144 08:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

NOTE The L-Word refers to Lesbian but also MULTIPLE "L-Words" are used in the opening credits and as motifs such loving, limber, lashes, Los Angeles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.188.186 (talk • contribs) 15:59, October 4, 2006


 * I don't believe this is exactly explicitly stated in the series. Dysprosia 08:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The "L" stands for a number of things, so it is open to unofficial interpretation. ~ Wapiko 23:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe it is saying that the "L word" is Lesbain, as in it is a hard word for people to say, understand and stuff. Which is of course from "the L" word as in Love, like two girls gossping about their girlfriends "I still can't get him to say The L word". The word Love is hard to say out loud, talk about openly and such in a relationship, it is treated with much fear and respect that they refer to it only as the L word. I think it is saying the same as a title, like "OMG look at us, L word, naugty, Lesbians on TV, outrage, watch me now I'm edgy". A great name for a show too, as you can see from your questions it works on many levels. Shame about the show though, at least where I live the episode was pretty bad, may have been an early episode though. The show seems too unrealistic, as in it feels like a sitcom JayKeaton 15:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The L word is not one thing, its whatever it means to you, i think their trying to say that one thing isnt the same for everybody, so if the l word is lesbian for you it might be love for someone else displaying that everyone is idividual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.76.82 (talk) 23:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Major script / plot changes between Season 2 and Season 3
There should be mention in the article of the drastic changes in the tone and plot style of the show between Season 2 and Season 3 - the show's PR blurb described this as a decision to make the show funnier and more exciting (I (and I know I'm not the only one) would describe it as a radical dumbing down of the show's plots and dialogue in favour of general wackiness and CSI-style stating-the-obvious dialogue). POV stances aside, the show's publicity material itself emphasized that there was a conscious decision to change the style of the show for Season 3. Also there are glaringly obvious changes in the show as the 180 degree personality change in Helena Peabody, who went from power-tripping rich bitch to the friendliest and nicest heiress you could ever meet. Bwithh 02:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Helena did change tremendously during seasons 2 and 3. One can assume this happened after having been admitted to the group. However, something did not change: her prodigal behavior was a clear constant in both seasons. It was always obvious Helena didn't care about money at all throughout the series. Neither in her relationship with Tina or her affair with Dylan she took a moment to consider sparing a penny. 16:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Season 3 DVD?
Anyone know when the Season 3 DVDs are coming out? (no pun intended) Cromulent Kwyjibo 23:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Expect it by October 2006. 16:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * October 24, according to Netflix. Donnabella 23:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

actor category
many tv shows have a "'showname' actors" category, it would be nice to add this for 'the l word' as it has quite a few guest stars and cast members. and the list of guest stars is getting out of hand.


 * I was actually wondering that myself. The L word has quite a long actor list, maybe we could all start working on a list of characters in the series. TLW 17:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be an interesting project. How about combining it with my idea of making a list of relationships in the series? --SLB 09:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * How could we do this?? TLW 20:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, a start could be to start the article List of characters from The L Word, and for each character put in their name, which episode they appear in and in what context, and a list of relationships under each character. Example:

A
...
 * Alice Pieszecki &mdash; main character seasons 1-4
 * Dates Gabby Devaux until episode ...
 * Dates "Lisa" the lesbian identified man in episodes MM-NN
 * Has slept with Nina

C
--SLB 09:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Clayborne &mdash; alluded to in episode XX season YY
 * Has dated Robin and left her at the altar


 * Ok! I'll do Alice and maybe Jenny... anyone feels like writing down Shane's connections? TLW 20:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Chart
I was wondering about a few things regarding the chart: This is not meant as a challenge of any sort, just trying to get into a constructive dialogue instead of a revert war. :) --Siljelb 03:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Where does some of the information in the chart currently in the article come from? I know I updated mine according to it, but suddenly realised I can't remember ever hearing anything about for instance Marina and Robin or Lara Perkins and Gabby Deveaux getting together. And where does this Nick Brakshov appear? And was Clayborne ever actually featured in the series, or just mentioned?
 * 2) Wouldn't it be easier to have a chart graphic that's more easily updateable in the article, as no doubt more characters and interrelationships will be introduced in the next season(s)? I'm updating my graphic for the norwegian article anyway, so it will be updated as the series progress. I could try and make it more similar to Alice's online chart (fonts and no bubbles for instance) if that's the issue.


 * Nevermind, I do not feel challenged whatsoever for this, I just want what is best for the article. =)


 * About your notes:


 * Information provided in the chart comes directly from the shows. Every single connection established is either mentioned or referenced to.
 * Remember Marina had been courting Robin on and along the 'Provocations' exhibit. Jenny's encounter with Marina and Robin prompts her to leave the CAC.
 * The Lara-Gabby relationship has more background... In episode 3.01 'Labia Majora', Alice speaks about it. Going back to season 2, If you remember Gabby's appearance, the first thing she mentions to Alice is that she has found new love. This new love is no other than Lara Perkins, which causes Alice to start telling Mimmy at KCRW about it and leads to her explanation of the chart. Another reference is when Lara first meets Dana during season 2, where Alice comments about her relationship with Gabby. Lara also tells her they are no longer dating.
 * I don't mind you replace the chart with a newer version. I replaced yours with my last version because I tried untangling the portion entirely (I left no cross-lining), and tried to make it resemble the one Alice placed online.


 * I believe we can both collaborate to make it a cool section, since the Chart itself is a pretty interesting and particular topic of this series! TLW 17:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It definately seems like you've researched this thoroughly! There might even be enough information here for a separate article about the chart or maybe just "Relationships on The L Word"? That would serve as a very nice reference for the chart as well. ;D
 * On the graphics; I've made a new version that's got a look more similar to Alice's and that has no crossing lines. It's also very easy to update without having to redraw anything by hand, as all the graphics are rendered automatically from the data in the talk page. The downside is it's hard or impossible to control the details of how the graph is laid out, but that would have to change with the addition of more nodes and edges anyway. -- SLB 09:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow! Now I like this version of the Chart =), However, the Chart itself doesn't seem to have yet enough information to be an independent article, maybe the Planet would have a longer history! TLW 20:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And about the background research, consider Alice is in fact my favorite character =Þ~ TLW 20:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Doesn't "The Chart" appear on a white board across Alice's apartment in the pilot, rather than by season 3?

71.63.36.232 05:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

User box
Need some help making this one a user box!! What do you guys think?




 * Nice. The colors need tweaking (or are you deliberately limiting to Web-safe colors? Let me know when you finish it and make it available in the template namespace. Donnabella 23:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to stick to web-safe. But I could fine-tune them anyway too... maybe I'm a little colorblind =P~. Do you know what are the tones? -- TLW 03:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not that technically oriented, though, I would just tweak the colors in a color wheel until I found the shade that felt right. I like the pink at the right, but the pink at the left seems kinda garish to me. Or maybe I need to have my boyfriend recallibrate my monitor. Donnabella 23:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What about this option?? It is color matched to the show's official website.



--TLW 23:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I llllove it! Please make it available as a template and let me know at my user talk page. Donnabella 21:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Add a Cultural Relevance & Critique Section?
Has anyone thought about adding sections on Cultural Relevance or Critique (artistic, cultural, etc.) of the l word? It hardly seems realistic not to do so. For instance, there has been much discussion about whether or not the show should mirror average "real life lesbians". Other queer shows have articles that do this thoughtfully and with respect. Deebki 08:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * IMHO, I am not so sure the L word could really be able to portray the "real life lesbians" that have been suggested in several messageboard posts. There once was a very good article covering this dilemma in the After Ellen website, it should be up somewhere over there. It is obvious the writers have intended to show these girls have a particular way of thinking and are very judgemental of whom they relate to; and the show itself depicts differences both between social classes and ideological beliefs. --TLW 22:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with your critique. And I believe the article deserves a section that lets readers know there is such debate going on about the show. Do you think we should add the section?  Deebki 08:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Should read over WP:NPOV and WP:NOR before you embark on something like this. - Debuskjt 04:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article needs a section detailing criticisms and cultural relevance. There's no such thing as a television show that takes no flak from its viewers. I was under the impression that it was fairly standard procedure on Wikipedia to include a variety of perspectives on popular media; for instance, there is a "Criticism" section in the article about "Sex in the City." However, this article's POV is fairly one-sided and I think that an alternate POV is needed to balance it out. 69.205.41.94 18:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Portugal
It's also being aired in Portugal, by RTP the public television. It's aired daily, currently on the second season.

Fan Sites
Per discussion on my talk page I've removed what I felt was a self-promotional fan site (edit [here]). The individual who placed that fansite link has made the argument that because the link to [AfterEllen.com] has been in this article for some time, this sets a precedent for encouraging fan links in this article.

Personally I feel no fansite links are appropriate for popular culture articles, and there will always be an underlying POV issue with picking and choosing which ones should be allowed, but rather than being overly-bold and deciding that for myself, I'm posting here for comments/arguments regarding acceptance of the one but no others (which has seemed to be the case for some time). -Markeer 16:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The user should read External links, which states "On articles about topics with many fansites, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate, marking the link as such." Any wish to replace the one fansite editors have chosen for an article should be taken with significant deliberation on talk. Not only that, but the External links section specifically states one, and only one, fansite will be tolerated here. Disregard for Wiki guidelines and editor consensus is... troubling. If they want to force the issue, then, yes, any and all fansites should just go. - Debuskjt 16:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Hasbian
The L Word didn't introduce Hasbian into the vernacular. The GLBT community has been using this word for donkey's years.

POLITICAL REASONS TO DEFINE L WORD"
After reading Si, Somos Lesbianas I believe that for political, moral and under common sense reasons we must list at the top of the page a redirection to Lesbian. Women are killed and/or imprisioned in many countries such as Cuba or Saudi Arabia for the mere mention of the word Lesbian as part of their character. WE MUST NOT ALLOW THIS! Do not allow a "nudge,nudge wink wink nudge" attitude to happen in the alleged free world/free press. Stand up and declare that the L Word means Lesbian Cr8tiv 20:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Serious question:identity & actors
Are the actors on the "L Word" L or B or Q? If not, doesn't this marginalize LBQ actors that need the work? What do people think about authenticity of portrayal? Arbol25 23:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * True equality means that LGBTQI actors can play any part just as non-LGBTQI can. Benjiboi 18:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ignore my ignorance bue what the hell does the Q and the I stand for in LGBTQI? .. XD meteoritu (talk) 15:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Protection?
Should the article be semi-protected? It seems it's been having a bit of trouble with people playing around with it these days. --TLW 04:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Synopsis of Season 4? Awards The L Word has received?
Why is there no mention/elaboration of either in this article?

Cultural Implications and trivia sections?
These are pretty punky and need to go. As much as the information may be interesting they detract and distract from an encyclopedic article. Any usable information should be sourced and woven into the rest of the article. Benjiboi 18:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Music
L-Word has at least one CD compilation that I know of plus the series is know for using music as part of the shows. A section referencing music would seem appropriate. Benjiboi 18:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Category up for Deletion
FYI - the category Category:The L Word is up for deletion. Scarykitty 02:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible point of discussion
This would need to be sourced, but an interesting topic that should be covered in this article is the sexual orientation of the actors. According to the article on Katherine Moennig, for example, because of her role in L Word (and because she seems to specialize in playing LBGT roles) she once had to state in an interview that she was actually heterosexual to clear up the question. I've also heard anecdotal debates over whether, say, Jennifer Beals is gay because of her role here, and so on. Obviously one would logically assume that most people would be able to separate acting from actual orientation - the two stars of Brokeback Mountain are in reality as far from gay as one could possibly be -- but there's been enough debate regarding the stars of L Word that I think it might be of interest to indicate who - if any - of the actresses have actually identified themselves as being gay. Obviously WP:BLP demands sourcing, but I don't think that would be too hard to find. PS. I just noticed someone last summer posted a similar question, but I think I've worded it better and it's not meant to be a question as to whether straight Actress X does a good job playing gay or whether gay Actress Y might have been cast for that reason. 68.146.41.232 (talk) 00:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Bisexuality-related?
Does this show really belong in "Category:Bisexuality-related television series"? There isn't a "Lesbian-related" category, which would be my first thought, but it's already in "LGBT-related", which would seem to fit just fine. Having it in bi-related seems incorrect and redundant. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 14:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The Characters List?
Why was the list of main characters removed? I could understand elaborating with that new page but the main characters should be left on that page it makes it easier to understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.53.69 (talk) 02:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree, the removal of the main characters section is a bit dramatic. Please bring it back. It could be confusing to new members. Lexhatesyou (talk) 09:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)