Talk:The Late Show (franchise)

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I have just modified 2 external links on Late Show (CBS TV series). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222015146/http://mancave.cbslocal.com/2011/04/11/david-letterman-keeping-us-up-late/ to http://mancave.cbslocal.com/2011/04/11/david-letterman-keeping-us-up-late/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150605021252/http://www.wdef.com/content/stationblogs/amy-o-meter/story/CBS-releases-list-of-Summer-Showcase-programs-to/OLNP1MdxnU29EJvUQ3TzQA.cspx to http://www.wdef.com/content/stationblogs/amy-o-meter/story/CBS-releases-list-of-Summer-Showcase-programs-to/OLNP1MdxnU29EJvUQ3TzQA.cspx

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Requested move 22 August 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved Late Show (CBS TV series) to The Late Show (franchise) and The Late Show (Fox TV series) to The Late Show (1986 talk show). (Closer's note: these are improvements but I suggest even better disambiguators can be found). (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 18:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

– There are several issues here. The first is that "Late Show" has been known as "The Late Show" since Stephen Colbert took over in 2016 (and was often referred to as "the Late Show" even under David Letterman), so the title should be moved/updated to reflect this. Second, "by network" disambiguation has been deprecated under WP:NCTV as too obscure for readers (esp. for international readers), so these need to be switched to "by year" disambiguation as per WP:NCTV. Third, neither of these are a "TV series" (i.e. with "continuing story elements" as per WP:NCTV) – indeed both articles, and the disambiguation page The Late Show, all make clear that these are "talk shows", so that is how they should be disambiguated as per WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:04, 22 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me &#124; my contributions 20:28, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Late Show (CBS TV series) → The Late Show (1993 talk show)
 * The Late Show (Fox TV series) → The Late Show (1986 talk show)

Survey

 * Oppose as proposed. The current could be improved, but, Oppose losing the network in the qualifier. Fox/CBS are important information. If “1986” is to be used, it calls for “1986-7” to avoid misrecognition for such a short run so long ago.  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:51, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Support Fox proposal / Oppose CBS proposal (see comments below) . --Gonnym (talk) 08:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Just so there won't be confusion - per disccusion bellow I Support The Late Show (franchise) for the CBS article. --Gonnym (talk) 19:41, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
 * No objection to the alternative The Late Show (franchise) proposal for the CBS article, mentioned in the Discussion section below. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support moves, the current titles are just plain wrong. No objection to the franchise suggestion, either would do IMO. The other title should be a redirect whichever way we go, to aid searching. Andrewa (talk) 15:18, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

My problem here, which has come up elsewhere, is that we tend to not differentiate between a singular TV series, and a plural of TV series using the name prefix/suffix. The Late Show (CBS TV series) article is not a TV series, as it talks about the "thing" called Late Show that aired on CBS, while The Late Show (Fox TV series) is a TV series. For lack of better word, I'd call the CBS article a franchise and use that to disambiguate it -> Late Show (franchise). The Fox version does indeed need to be disambiguated as proposed. --Gonnym (talk) 08:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't oppose Late Show (franchise), though I personally think it should be at The Late Show (franchise), for the reasons I gave above – namely, that the show has been called The Late Show ("officially") since 2016, and was often referred to as "the Late Show" (informally) even before that. (But Late Show (franchise) should certainly be a redirect...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the addition of the "the", I didn't even notice I didn't use it, as I just modified the current link in my example. --Gonnym (talk) 15:06, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The above was closed with a WP:Supervote. The closer has imposed titles not well considered. Granted, the old titles were poor, but the RM above shows a productive discussion but not a consensus. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:29, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Consensus about the inappropriateness of the current titles is undeniable. Three out of four participants supported or did not object to the franchise disambiguation; nobody objected explicitly objected to it (personally, I object to it, but that doesn't matter as we have a lot of leeway for disambiguation wording). The same three out of four supported the Fox change. My preferences did not weigh into this finding at all.  I happen to agree that the network information is important in the disambiguation and should not be lost, but only one participant mentioned this.  --В²C ☎ 22:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The Late Show and The Late Late Show trademarks
According to the United States Patent and Trademark Office the words/marks "Late Show" and "The Late Late Show" (See here and here) are owned by David Letterman through his production company Worldwide Pants Incorporated and not CBS Briadcasting Inc. nor its parent company ViacomCBS even though CBS and ViacomCBS apparently still think they do. So would it be worth mentioning that fact given the history of the Late Show and Late Late Show franchise? YborCityJohn (talk) 15:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)