Talk:The Lightning Thief/GA1

GA Review
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I will review The Lightning Thief. I suspect it will take me a day or two to read and comment on the article. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 03:17, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Pmlinediter   Talk 07:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I've now read the article, and it doesn't meet section 3 of the Good article criteria. That is, it doesn't address the main aspects of the topic. The article is heavy on the plot summary and weak on everything else. You might want to look closer at a similar GA article: Septimus Heap.

I'll put The Lightening Thief on hold for a week to give you time to develop the article. A really good GA article is The Hardy Boys. You might wish to consult it also. To give you an idea of the skeleton of your article: it should look something like this: ✅ ✅I have written a section that is entitled Development and Publication. As the reviewer you are aloud to help me with little stuff so I was wondering if you could copy edit is for me and add more links to it. Thanks.--( NGG ) 00:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC) Each section should be about the same length. That is, the article should be balanced and not all plot summary.
 * Background
 * Plot summary
 * Characters
 * Setting
 * Genre
 * Publication
 * Reception

Also, here are a couple of possible references.


 * The Lighning Thief This has a lot of good info including an award list.


 * Mount Olympus for Kids Wall Street Journal

Cheers Wassupwestcoast (talk) 03:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Talking with Rick Riordan Statesman
 * I'll try to address these problems but your not giving very good examples here. The two good article you inked me to are about series and characters. So please give me a more reasonable example to go by and this should be GA in no time.--( NGG ) 14:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll have another look at the article. The two GA articles I linked to were examples of childrens's / young adult literature. It is irrelevant whether the articles concern one book or a series. (The Lightning Thief is part of a series.) As to what should be in each section of the article, your sources / references will guide you. For example, you should have a character section on Percy Jackson because several references discuss the character. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 05:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, why don't you merge all the books in the series, and the author bio, into one article? Most of the content in The Lightening Thief applies to all the novels.


 * At the moment, the biggest problem is the lack of adequate sources. This isn't your fault. They just don't exist. Since Wikipedia doesn't allow original research, it is very hard to construct a GA when there are few sources.


 * The second problem is that the plot summary dominates the article. The plot summary should be the least important part. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 05:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

This article will be on GA hold for two more weekends. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 05:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Really, don't panic over this. Wikipedia is a hobby. There is no rush! Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 05:36, 18 May 2009

(UTC)
 * I would like to withdraw this nom. I have been researching this topic for hours and there just isn't enough. I think this article may have to stay a B article.--( NGG ) 21:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait until the weekend. I think there are enough sources to make GA. For example, you haven't added the awards info which is in the reference above. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Further comments

This article has had much improvement since the GA nomination. Before→Current It isn't too far off from passing.

Lead section
 * The lead should summarize the entire article. After "alive in modern times" start a new paragraph. Add one or two sentences about the development and publication.
 * Added new paragraph and expanded it with YALSA Award and New York Times Best Seller list


 * Get rid of "several starred reviews", meaning is ambiguous as it can read in a number of ways. Redundant since "critical acclaim" is used.
 * Removed "several starred reviews".


 * Mention 1.2 million copies sold.
 * Mentioned.


 * Mention a couple of the most notable awards.
 * Mentioned.

Plot summary :I have not removed this since this is really not hampering the article. Further comments are appreciated. Pmlinediter  Talk 11:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Citation aren't really needed. It is understood that the book itself is the source, as the accuracy of the plot description can be verified by reading the book. Exceptions to this rule may apply to plot details that are unclear or open to interpretation, in which case the various interpretations should be cited to reliable sources.
 * ✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 12:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

✅ Done - Provided you are referring to those from the plot summary. Pmlinediter  Talk 11:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Link to character articles, if available.
 * Some of the links go to disambiguation pages.
 * Can you point out which? Pmlinediter   Talk 11:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 11:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 11:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Some characters need a "descriptor", something that tells the reader who or what the character is when first introduced. eg. "fed ambrosia by Annabeth Chase" → "fed ambrosia by a girl named Annabeth Chase". There a quite a few instances of this that needs fixing.
 * "Ares campers" - what are Ares campers?
 * ✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 11:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "is revealed as the son of Poseidon." - too vague, how is it revealed?
 * Not by me though. Pmlinediter   Talk 11:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Percy then is granted a quest" - by who?
 * Sorry, but this can't be added for it'll be original research. We can't say that the oracle granted him the quest since it is up to Percy to accept it. Pmlinediter   Talk 11:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Near their destination, the war god Ares gives Percy and Annabeth new clothing and backpacks to replace their travel-worn clothes." - Removed, unnecessary detail.
 * ✅ Done Extremepro (talk) 12:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 11:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "He finds out that Ares had tricked him and he got out of the Underworld leaving his mother." - A bit confusing who the "he"s are.
 * "gods heel" → "god's heel"
 * ✅ Done Extremepro (talk) 12:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "He was given the Helm of Darkness he gives it back to Hades." → "Ares gives Percy the Helm of Darkness which he gives back to Hades."
 * ✅ Done Extremepro (talk) 12:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 12:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Although Percy is a child of Poseidon who has made Zeus angry already, he risks taking a plane to reach New York City, since Olympus is now located atop the Empire State Building." - Rewrite this entire sentence.
 * Merge the last two short paragraphs together.
 * How do you go from Percy dying to the end of summer? How does Percy survive? What happens in-between?
 * ✅ Done Explained a little bit on how Percy survives. Nothing happens in-between unless you want the conversation between Percy and Annabeth. Pmlinediter   Talk 12:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Development and publication
 * Delink months and years
 * Delinked

Reviews
 * Currently the weakest section of the article. Needs to be expanded.
 * ✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 12:05, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Doesn't exactly assert "critical acclaim" which is mentioned in the lead.
 * Can you please explain? Pmlinediter   Talk 12:05, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Add more comments from notable publications
 * ✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 12:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Not just quotes but name aspects of the books that have received praise from critics. (eg. style of writings, characterization, etc.)
 * ✅ Done One ref added, will work on more. Pmlinediter   Talk 11:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Any negative reviews/comments? WP:UNDUE: "the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." So, some negative reception=some coverage of the negative reception. Small amount of negative reception= small amount of coverage of the negative reception
 * ✅ Done Pmlinediter   Talk 11:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

kollision (talk) 06:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Citation for Honors.


 * I'll cleanup the article today itself. But regarding the reception section, we have found it impossible to find negative reviews. I'll try nevertheless. Pmlinediter   Talk 07:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, no time today; I am busy at simple. Will definitely do it tomorrow. Pmlinediter   Talk 09:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is definitely getting better. A couple of comments. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Themes - you might want to include a bit on themes, or genre, if you can find any references.
 * Audio book - film adapations aren't the only sort of adapations. There are audio books and plays.
 * I've found another reference - It's not really the end for Rick Riordan's gods and demigods - while it is about the last in the series, there is info about The Lightning Thief. For example, "According to Simon, his books' appeal is due partly to the Greek mythology, partly to his simple writing style and partly to the fact that the Percy character "is believable [and] feels like a regular kid."", might be useful. Also, "Kidsbooks co-owner Phyllis Simon said Book One: The Lightning Thief (2005) "came out of nowhere."" And, "...where he'd been autographing copies before an evening appearance that drew 600,..." Anyway, there is stuff here that could be folded into the article.
 * I've just noticed that you have the audio book info as a caption. I say put it in the article proper.

See The Time Traveler's Wife for an example of including Adaptions in the text. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The Lightning Thief article is much better. However, the prose is not quite good enough. In the Good article criteria, the prose must be clear and the spelling and grammar correct. Some trouble spots: Plot summary
 * "During a Capture the Flag game, Percy is attacked by the children of Ares for making a fool of Clarisse." - not clear. who is Clarisse?
 * ✅ Fixed. Pmlinediter   Talk 10:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Luke then calls out a poisonous scorpion and leaves, meanwhile Percy is stung and nearly dies. However, Chiron saves him and at the end of summer, Percy decides to attend another school found by his mother, although he's sure he'll be kicked out." - not clear.
 * ✅ Fixed. Pmlinediter   Talk 10:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Development and publication
 * "Development for both The Lightning Thief and the Percy Jackson series as a whole when Riordan first began making stories for his son Haley who had just recently been diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia." - grammar and syntax problems.
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Y Fixed. Pmlinediter   Talk 12:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Riordan had been a Greek mythology teacher in middle school for many years and was able to remember up with enough stories to please his son." - grammar and syntax problems.
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Y Fixed. Pmlinediter   Talk 12:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The plot summary is 680 words long. See if it couldn't be tightened to 400 words. At the moment, the middle section and the last few sentences ramble. The development and publication section needs to provide some commentary on the 10 years between the manuscripts completion and its publication. To me, this sounds like a long time. If it isn't, simply quote someone saying it is normal. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The syntax problems you raised are quite true since they appeared on Word 2007. I have been working on them, but other than the weekends, haven't got any real support. However, I'll try to improve the article. Pmlinediter   Talk 07:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

GA fails
While the article has been greatly improved, at this time the article does not meet the Good article criteria. Specifically, it fails GA on 1a - the prose is not clear with grammar and style problems, and 1b - does not comply with the fiction guideline. The plot summary is the most problematic. The plot summary dominates the article. See Manual of Style (writing about fiction): "The length of a plot summary should be carefully balanced with the length of the other sections." The plot summary is roughly 700 words compared to everything else (totals about 900 words). The plot should be the least important section in the article. The plot summary is only an aide to the reader. Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 05:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)