Talk:The Lion King/Archive 1

Songs in Parentheses
When you write the plot for a musical, it is typical to also put in the songs in parentheses. This tells the reader when a certain song is sung. That's why they are there.--Linklewtt 07:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare Controversy
Moved the following from the 'Controversy' section:


 * Some people feel that the plot also bears a strong resemblance to William Shakespeare's Hamlet

because I'm not sure how that is controversial in any way. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:03, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I was the one who added it. I knew it should be in the article, but I wasn't sure where it belonged. That's why I put it with the other movie that the Lion King was allegedly copied from. Please reinsert it whereever you feel appropriate. &rarr;Raul654 23:26, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

Having just read the article I really feel that there should be more on the films MANY similarities both in characters and plotline with Hamlet, I would glady write such a section, though i'm not sure where best to put it as it is only really 'controversial' in that it offers evidence against Dinsey's claim that the story is original. MagicBez 15:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

There could be a section entitled "Resemblances to Other Works of Fiction" or something. Hamlet would be a major one, but there would be others. That would be a way to tie in the whole Chris Vogler/Joseph Campbell action too (story developer Vogler wrote that memo using Campbell's theories, etc.) Check out the article on Campbell's "Hero of a Thousand Faces" -- Simba follows the formula. Hamlet, Campbell, are there any other character overlaps?

On the audio commentary of The Lion King DVD. the directors and writers openly admit that yes this was an original story, but there are parts of Hamlet thrown in there. But on the whole, this story is original with minor similarities to Hamlet. --Linklewtt 03:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

S-E-X vs. S-F-X
I think most people are in agreement that the writing was meant to read SFX, not SEX (although I would have thought the artists might have thought of the possible mistake and so laboured to make sure that it couldn't be made, rather than leave that extra line there). However, as far as I can see, there are no sources or evidence stated that confirm that it was intended to be SFX, so I think the article should use softer language, saying that it was "probably" intended to be SFX, rather than just that it was. (I've also added a link to the relevant Snopes article) Justdig 20:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Could it be the name of the south korean animation studio, SEK? They look the same.--Finest1 18:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything in the subliminal messages section is just speculation. Disney has never made any statement on this issue. So for all we know this could be nothing. --ThePartyVan 10:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC -5)

Nobody can be oblivious to the fact that anything like "SFX" is extremely close to SEX. Meaning, it was obviously put in on purpose. I think that while the article should note there is no official word on this, it should atleast be generally accepted that it does indeed, say SEX.

Writing that it is "generally accepted" that the message spells "sfx" isn't the solution. See WP:WEASEL. I've reworded it slightly to avoid the weasel words. Feel free to edit it further if this is still an example of weasel words. Mr. Wood 14:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be more accurate to keep the picture, and say "the film allegedly enframed the word "sex" into several frames of animation" - to let the viewers make up their own mind. Just my opinion :) ... Hang on - why would someone remove the fact that the scene was removed in the DVD edition?

Yoda921 12:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)Yoda

Character misjudgment?

 * Why does it say that the story is told from the POV of Zazu? The author - whoever that was - states that the reason of this comes from the final cast credits. After watching the movie, I had noticed that the credits in question are listed alphabetically by voice actor, thus putting Zazu (Rowan Atkinson) first. So this means that the story is told from Zazu's point of view? He wasn't even there for half of it! Why should this "fact" be included? I propose that Simba (the character with the most scenes, and the focus of the film at that) be first on the list, and Zazu's entry moved down between Scar's and Sarabi's. --Thirteen 05:43, 04 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah! That has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything! So what if it was listed in alphabetical order? In movie credits they always either list the characters in order of appearance or aphabetize the characters or actors/actresses! And also Zazu was the first character to be seen (he first appeared flying over to Pride Rock to report to Mufasa that every animal was coming to the ceremony).68.164.86.210 01:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Names
Does anyone know the origin of the names Mufasa, Simba, and Nala? I seem to recall hearing that there was an interesting story behind each of the names. --Lowellian 07:53, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the other two, but I'm pretty sure that Simba is merely the Swahili word for 'lion'. AJD 22:45, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I know what all the names mean. "Simba", as the previous person said, does mean "lion" in Swahili. "Mufasa" is a proper name so it doesn't mean anything but the name was reported as the last king of the Bagada people. "Nala" means "gift" in Swahili but do not be confused with the DVD version of The Lion King II: Simba's Pride on the Matter-of-Facts mode of the movie when it incorrectly states that the name "Nala" does not mean anything. So if you want to know what the rest of The Lion King names are, just ask.


 * This is correct. The other two are just names. Mufasa is derived from Mustafa, some previous monarch of some African country. I am not aware of an "interesting story" behind the names of Nala, Sarafina, Ed, and all the others that aren't Swahili words. &mdash; Timwi 10:40, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I think the two hyenas other than Ed have names meaning things like trash and evil in Swahili. --Speedway 19:14, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

A website with much information about TLK is http://www.lionking.org/faq.html

According to the second Lion King movie, on the DVD in the special feature where while watching the movie facts pop up, it said "'Nala' doesn't mean anything, but it sounds pretty." Bhargav mr 17:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't be confused with the error on the movie pop-ups. Nala does in fact, mean "gift".

"Removed" scene?
The paragraph that begins "Some believe that a part of a scene was removed from the American version" is nonsense. Either it was deleted or it wasn't; this isn't a question of opinion, and it shouldn't be too hard to find out whether it was or not. If it was, we should just say so; if it wasn't, we should delete this whole paragraph. AJD 11:57, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

S-E-X
Would it be a breach of copyright to put up one of the 'SEX' frames? (IE. one of the ones found at Snopes Urban Legend Pages - Lion King). It would certainly add more clarity to the Contreversy section. --Joey Roe 12:27, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be a porblem. Cite the source and use the tag. --FuriousFreddy 13:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Controversies surrounding The Lion King
"The two child actors playing the lead roles of Simba and Nala in the Australian stage version were fired due to bad acting, lack of singing talent and inconsistent American accent."

Truth or legend? In the Broadway version they use four child actors because of juvenile working time regulations, and I don't imagine that Australia would be any different. Anyway, why shouldn't the Australian cast use Aussie accents? None of the characters is American! Is Disney really that Americacentric? Lee M 22:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, sounds fishy. According to the cast page for Australia, that production also uses 4 child actors for both Simba and Nala. So at the very least, the word "The" in "The two child actors" is incorrect. -LarryMcP, 24 Jul 2005

I work at TLK in the Melbourne Production, and can state categorically that the child actors do not use American accents, nor are they supposed to. (In fact, the only character who does is Timon, with his nasal Brooklyn-Jewish accent). Therefore, given at least one component of this 'fact' is false, the whole paragraph should be removed pending evidence for it's inclusion. W.Ross 02:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The main controversy I remember, besides the Kimba deal, about this film was the allegation that the hyenas were stereotyped versions of African Americans and that Scar was a gay stereotype. It was in the news for a week or so.--T. Anthony 01:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Mufasa's name
"The name could also be derived from "Mustafa," another name of Kemal Atatürk. The hyenas in the movie at one point pronounce the name in a funny way that entered '90s American pop culture."

Certainly, Kemal Atatürk wasn't the only person who ever carried this name. It's a common Turkish name, so I don't see why Kemal Atatürk needs to be mentioned here, seeing as he has nothing whatsoever to do with the movie. Apart from that, in which part of the movie did the hyenas pronounce the name in a funny way that entered American pop culture? I thought Hakuna Matata was the major thing from the movie that had become popular in the 90's for a while. Did I miss something?

Similarities to other films
The Lion King seems to have been influenced by at least three other films/plays:


 * 1) Obviously, Hamlet is the major influence for the plot.
 * 2) The appearence of the film partially comes from Kimba the White Lion.
 * 3) Most unusually of all, part of the film seems to come from Universal's The Land Before Time. Here are some similarities:
 * 4) *Both films have a dead parent (Mufasa or Littlefoot's mother.)
 * 5) *Both films have a male quadruped protognist getting lost in a desert (Littlefoot or Simba)
 * 6) *There is a fight between the main male and female protagonist in each film (Simba vs Nala and Littlefoot vs Cera.)
 * 7) *The Land Before Time was the first film to EVER use the pharse "Circle of Life".
 * 8) *Both films have a ghost in the clouds at the end.
 * 9) *Both films have a ghost appear in a pool of water.
 * 10) *Both films have the killer of the parent be killed (Scar dies; so does the Tyrannosaurus.)
 * 11) *Both films have an annoying little flying character (Zazu or Petrie)
 * 12) *Both films have a "wise man" character (Rafiki or Rooter.)
 * 13) *It should also be noted that The Land Before Time came out in 1988, 6 years BEFORE The Lion King.


 * Sigh. Annoying "comic relief" characters have been standard issue in Disney's animated features for decades.  The "wise man" character who serves as the hero's teacher -- I believe Joseph Campbell has explored this.  Having the hero's dead parent come back to offer counsel is not exactly new either -- cf. "The Juniper Tree".  Orphaned or half-orphaned young heroes have occurred in fiction since there was fiction, and the young hero ejected from a safe place to a "great outdoors" is not exactly new material either.  "There is a fight between the main male and female protagonist" -- wow, The Land Before Time borrowed from The African Queen.  And His Girl Friday.  And Much Ado About Nothing.  Cactus Wren 21:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the whole thing about Mrs. Tentacles, the mother of Squidward Tentacles, and speaking to Squidward in the Ghost Host episode of SpongeBob SquarePants was taken from both The Land Before Time and The Lion King. The Land Before Time took some of the James Horner music from Project X. TriStar's Legends of the Fall took some of the James Horner music The Land Before Time, which also had the music borrowed in the trailer for We're Back! A Dinosaur's Story. Dinsey's Honey, I Shrunk the Kids also took some of the James Horner music The Land Before Time. It also shown in Back to the Future Part II, that in the alternate 1985, Marty McFly is worried about his mother Lorraine Baines McFly being married to Biff Tannen and the death of his father George McFly, which may be similar to Littlefoot being worried about his mother's death. Both Dr. Emmett Brown and Rooter are wise guys, both Marty McFly and Littlefoot the Apatosaurus are worried characters, both Biff Tannen and the Sharptooth are villains, and both George McFly and Littlefoot's mother are dead parents. Also, it may not just be Hercules wearing Scar's skin in the Disney film Hercules, but the "Circle of Life" quote being the same as the "Go the Distance" quote as well because The Lion King used "Circle of Life" (taken from The Land Before Time) all the time and Hercules used "Go the Distance" (taken from Rocky) all the time and the "Circle of Life" quote may be similar to the "Go the Distance" quote.

controversy
I'm sure this isn't the place for wild speculation, but isn't it obvious to anyone else that the 'SEX' cloud is actually 'SEK' as in SEK Studio, referenced in the lower part of the article?

---No, the only sources you have to back up your claim is a blog and one newspaper. Now personally I don't think it says anything. Some soccor mom just got scared and said you're moving with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air. And Disney did not officially say anything about this! It is just generally accepted that the letters spell SFX.

Article for the Musical?
Am I the only one who thinks it would be a good idea to give the musical its own article? I think it deserves it, with a little tlc. Clarkefreak &#8734; 23:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The Lion King Musical does have an article. Go on something about the movie and look in orange box at the end of the page. Somewhere, there should say something like "Broadway Musical" or "Musical".


 * Done. Cburnett 06:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Similarities with Hamlet? I don't see it.
User MagicBez refers to the "MANY similarities both in characters and plotline with Hamlet." Having been a student of Shakespeare's works for many years, and having performed in two productions of Hamlet, I don't feel out of line in calling myself very knowledgeable of the subject. I see no true parallels between this movie and Hamlet. Both concern an uncle who commits murder to usurp the throne, but that's about it; any similarities end there. I certainly don't find "MANY similarities." Consider: In the Lion King, there is no character who can be considered a parallel to Polonius, nor Horatio, nor Gertrude, nor Laertes, nor Ophelia, nor even the character Hamlet for that matter. Yes, yes, the "father appearing as a ghost" scene might imply a reference to the play, but that is only IF one's familiarity with Hamlet is merely superficial.

Hamlet's father tells him specifically that his uncle committed murder. Mufasa simply tells Simba that he has lost his way. Simba has no knowledge or suspicion that his father's death is anyone's fault but his own, until the very end of the film. Hamlet spends nearly the entire course of the play consumed with the desire for vengeance (though he is tormented by his inability to act on this desire). Simba spends most of his story resigned to the idea that in essence, he killed his own father, and is completely unaware of events back home, or the truth of what has happened.

And the notion that Timon and Pumbaa are representative of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern is equally without foundation to anyone who has actually studied the play (or even simply watched it).

Furthermore, if it were true that there are "MANY similarities both in characters and plotline," or as another user put it, "Obviously, Hamlet is the major influence for the plot," then one would expect to find in the Lion King that:

1. Sarabi marrying Scar and pleading for mercy.

2. Nala going insane and killing herself because Simba has told her he doesn't love her.

3. Nala having a brother, who is intent on avenging her death by conspiring with Scar to kill Simba in a duel.

4. Nala's father being a trusted counsel to Scar, and while eavesdropping on Simba's confrontation of Sarabi, is killed by Simba.

5. Timon and Pumbaa, while on a mission for Scar, being ordered to their deaths by Simba, by means of a forged letter.

Admittedly, these are harsh examples, and I don't mean to insult anyone's opinion, but these events are each CENTRAL to the play, yet aren't referenced in the film. I'm simply trying to point out how far from each other these two stories actually are. Crazed actor 19:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. On the other hand, many Disney films have been based directly on a story and had as many differences. (I consider the "new lamps for old" scene to be the key feature in the Aladdin story, but it's not in the movie). Daibhid C 23:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Second it. Other then the somewhat funny part, with Scar playing with a skull, there is not alot of Hamlet stuff. And it would be creepy if any/all of those moents happened in the reall Lion King. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.144.236 (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Original Broadway Cast
I just added the Principle players from the Original Broadway Cast, however they really aren't in any order, just the order that IBDB had them. Anyone feel they know what order they should be in?

Also, does anyone think I should list the Ensemble members of the cast as well?--Swiftblade21 03:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Sarafina
Is it really necessary to list Sarafina in 'key characters', if the character only gets one line, and then vanishes for the rest of the movie? PlatformerMastah 02:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Sarafina doesn't technically vanish, as she's seen when Scar is informing the lionesses of Simba and Mufasa's death, and when Simba returns to Pride Rock to fight Scar. But I'll agree with you on the fact that she isn't a key character. Blue Phoenix 10:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Nomination
I was considering nominating this article to be a featured article (again), as I think it is pretty decent as far as a movie article goes. What do you think? PlatformerMastah 05:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler in "About the film"
I reworded a sentance that contains spoilers.

The original text was: (Bambi's mother was shot off-screen, and was not seen afterwards; whereas Mufasa's body appears in a scene in The Lion King.)

Here is my version: Bambi's mother was shot off-screen, and was not seen afterwards; whereas Mufasa's body appears in a scene in The Lion King.

Bye --Starionwolf 06:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Er, what's the difference between the two sentences?

transcript
Anyone know of a transcript for the film? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bole2 (talk • contribs).
 * Please post your name, and yes, here is one. PlatformerMastah 21:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Kopa
Kopa was the cub of Simba and Nala at the end of The Lion King. --Mrsanitazier 02:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi! Welcome to Wikipedia.  Your edits are welcomed, but they are conflicting with the edits and opinions of other editors.  If you have any evidence to support your claim, please post it.  Most editors agree that he is not in the movie series.  In the meantime, please stop adding Kopa to this article unitl the other editors give their opinions.  I have reverted your edits for now.  Thank you for understanding and have a nice day.  --Starionwolf 00:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Chaka is the newborn cub of Simba and Nala in the end of film as stated in the script of the film —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lionkingfan123 (talk • contribs).
 * Proof? Canon says it's Kiara. It wasn't Kiara before Simba's Pride was made, evidently, but I still haven't heard anything about Chaka. Kopa? Yes. "Fluffy", a joke name given to the cub at the end of TLK? Yes. Chaka? No. Blue Phoenix 00:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In an attempt to organize this discussion about Kopa and Chaka, please direct further comments to Kopa's talk page for the continuing discussion about Kopa and Chaka. Thank you for your patience and understanding. Cheers.  --Starionwolf 00:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Films containing giant ghosts

 * Since it's not just The Land Before Time or The Lion King that has giant ghosts, could you name other fillms that have giant ghosts? The "Ghost Host" episode of SpongeBob SquarePants referenced these two films and has a giant ghost who speaks to Squidward Tentacles; Mrs. Tentacles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.73.14.84 (talk • contribs).
 * Name them now! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.73.14.84 (talk • contribs).

Removed deleted images
Just a note to say that I have removed some images from the page beacuse they were speediable under either:
 * Category:Images with no fair use rationale
 * Category:Images with no copyright tag
 * Category:Images with no source

Or similar category. Kilo-Lima|(talk) 15:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Kopa II
Can we call the cub Kopa in the plot synopsis section. Simbafan34 11:47, 4 July,2006 (UTC)

Original poster vs other poster
I do not think the original poster displays the characters and other details well enough and there is no requirement forcing the original poster. -- Cat out 08:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The other Disney films are all using their original theatrical poster, as it reflects the period of the film's release which is more proper. It's seems weird putting that other poster and not every poster in the infobox has to display all the characters and details. Chris1219 05:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia about Kopa
The Lion King: Six New Adventures is a canon So that means that Kopa is definitely the cub at the end of the film. Mrsanitazier 23:41 7 July, 2006 (UTC)

Kopa III
I think it is neccasary that Kopa should be listed in the Characters section even though he makes a breif apperance. Mrsanitazier 13:10 8 July, 2006 (UTC)

(This section was updated three times).

Kopa IV
the person who animated Kopa was Judy Katschke Mrsanitazier 15:10 8 July, 2006 (UTC)

Names in other languages
What's the purpose of this section? Seems like a waste of space. DHN 06:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The "Titles in different languages" section? I find it incredibly helpful. Although the formatting could be a bit better I think. Blue Phoenix 13:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the person who started this header, but I think it was intended to mention that the names of the characters in The Lion king were derived from Zulu and Swahili. An example of this is that Mufasa means "One who can be trusted" in Zulu, and Rafiki means "friend". I don't have a source for this, but any respectable translator will back me up.

Swahili/Language Issues

 * In the Trivia section it mentions "The phrase "Hakuna Matata" is gramatically incorrect in Swahili. Literally translated it means "Worries have I none" but Disney felt the incorrect phrase was more marketable than the correct one." However, on the Wikipedia Page for "Hakuna Matata", it states that "Hakuna matata" is a Swahili saying meaning "no worries". Literally translated, it means "here-there-are-no concerns." Which one is right, anyone know?
 * The Hakuna Matata page also says that before the Lion King, a South African band had it as a chorus in one of their songs. Although in the end it was Disney's choice when it came to the movie I doubt that the native speakers would make that grammatical mistake. 04:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I just came back from Tanzania and people say Hakuna Matata all the time! Although in swahili the words are usually the other way around, in this I think it's just a phrase - it's not like we don't have enough of these things in English.  So I think this point of 'trivia' is wrong and should be removed. (ricjl 20:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC))


 * I think there could be a valuable section on this page about the different languages used in the songs and the names of the characters and places (e.g. Rafiki - friend, Simba - Lion). Does anyone know what language the backing vocals are in?  I heard once it was Zulu but I don't know.  A translation would be cool. (ricjl 20:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC))


 * Yes they are in Zulu, composed by Lebo Morake from South Africa who also did "The Power of One" soundtrack. You can find translations of the lyrics all over the web, so long as you know the name of the song. So e.g. the "theme" music (i use this term loosely as its open to interpretation) called Busa means "rule" in Zulu, which is why they keep repeating Busa Simba (Simba doesn't mean anything in Zulu so it works well as a name)

Mandrill/Baboon?
The article states that Rafiki was incorrectly referred to as a baboon, however in the movie when Rafiki is muttering nonsense to Simba and when asked what it means he says: "It means you are a baboon... and I am not!" Although this can be interpreted as a playful fib, he really isn't saying that he's a baboon. Perhaps he was making a more philosophical point that although he literally is NOT a baboon, what/who Simba is can be open to interpretation i.e. the eye of the beholder since he doesn't know what/who he is himself.

Note that i say what/who because the people actually ARE animals, so though in normal human society calling someone a baboon would mean they are not people, in the Lion King's world this would be different. You get the picture. 04:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like to make two observations here on this question. First, while Rafiki clearly possesses the facial coloration of a mandrill, in other respects such as the tail he more closely matches a baboon, so his exact species is somewhat ambiguous.  (He is not the only character like this; Zazu is identified as a hornbill, but there are many species of hornbills and an attempt to narrow which species of hornbill he is was inconclusive).  Second, what were the producers of the film assuming with regard to whether a mandrill is a type of baboon, and should that matter more than whether or not a mandrill is a baboon in a strict taxonomic sense? --

Mwalimu59 18:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the reason for this mix-up is because during the time The Lion King was made, mandrills were thought to be baboons.

Characters section (please help)
I added a table to the characters section, but I need help making it look good. I don't do too many graphical edits to Wikipedia, and would like some help. Do you think the table is even necessary? PlatformerMastah 01:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * XD. I see you. Um, a lot of other Disney musicals have the cast listed in a table. On the other hand, they don't have the additional columns that the table on this page has, and their singer/VA lists are divided. My suggestion is either to split the tables, and put the "Notes" into individual character pages, or to turn the list into prose a la Secret of Mana Theater. -  Corbin  Be excellent (TINC) 07:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Old computer game
I remember an old computer game for the pc, i think it was a dos game, 2d platform sort of thing based on the lion king. maybe it was just called the lion king. Is this worth mentioning?
 * Please sign your comments by typing ~ . Anyway, the game was simply called The Lion King and is already mentioned near the bottom of the article. It has its own article at The Lion King (video game). It always needs work, so if you have anything to add to it that would be great. Blue Phoenix 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

A new section?
There was a trivia section recently made for this article, which can be seen here. It makes some interesting points about the symbolism in the film, and I was thinking, should there be a new section in this article called Symbolism? Would that be necessary for the article? With the poetic influences the film had, such as Hamlet, symbolism should be an important part. What do you think? PlatformerMastah 06:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)