Talk:The Machine (social group)/Archive 1

1st comment

 * [name removed], i respect your work and i truly belive that you are doing what you think is best. But the members you posted have done nothing to you. Do you want to have hurt that many people's reputations. Write all you want about the history and what false accusations you post but please if your trying to beat the "Machine" lets try and leave the individuals out of it. It could hurt them for a long time. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.100.153 (talk • contribs) (later deleted by User:68.62.145.57)

To the person who first responded

 * You should know that I did not post this new information in Wikipedia, nor did I write the original article. Your accusations are not only dangerous, but false. I will admit to possessing "the list" beforehand, and I will vouch for its accuracy (for the most part). I also applaud the anonymous person who posted it. You should feel no guilt or remorse for exposing those who spread fear and hate across our beloved campus.
 * As for the rest of you, I would beseech you to not give in to intimidations or threats. Voting is a precious right that has been hard-won with real people's blood and guts, and the Machine is a sick perversion of those rights. The members of Theta Nu Epsilon should be ashamed of themselves for their behavior, and those who excuse and appease their actions are no better.
 * I am tired of veiled threats and harassing late-night phone calls. I am tired of weak-kneed greeks and administrators who refuse to own up and do their part. I am tired of meek independents who are afraid to speak out. I am tired of closed doors and anonymous sources. This is my real name, and I am proud of it:

- Taylor Reed Nichols -- (added by User:68.62.145.57)

list

 * The list was received and has now been distributed to those who can do something with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.62.135.109 (talk • contribs)


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reputations

 * If the members of Theta Nu Epsilon are worried about their reputations, they probably shouldn't have joined in the first place. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.160.166.216 (talk • contribs)

EXACTLY
EXACTLY so why would they join if they were worried about their reputations? BECAUSE THEY ARENT. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF. IT IS 2005, THINGS HAVE CHANGED AND PEOPLE ARE READY TO MOVE ON AS A CAMPUS. ANY ELECTION INCLUDES POLITICAL STRATEGY AND THIS JUST HAPPENS TO BE ONE. THEY WORK HARD FOR THE PEOPLE THEY SUPPORT BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN THEM AND BASICALLY, BECAUSE THEY ARE FRIENDS OR MUTUAL FRIENDS WITH THEM. ITS COLLEGE, NOT D.C., THE SGA NEEDS TO BE MADE UP OF REAL PEOPLE, NOT PEOPLE PLAYING DRESS-UP AS PRESIDENT FOR THE YEAR OR SENATOR. They arent worried about their reputations, the secrecy, its just a fraternal ritual. Honor societies, sororities, fraternities, and organizations all over the world have secret methods....remaining anonymous is simply a provision of Theta Nu Epsilon. I do not know what happened in the years past but since the Minda Riley incident, NOTHING bad has been done to anyone except for the simple act of campaigning for QUALIFIED candidates. The Greek system is tight in terms of friendships and those that are a part of it know that your closest friends rarely are limited to your own pledge class. The fact of the matter is...you call it a machine and say horrible things to TRICK people into voting against it....thats dirty politics and that is taking the low road. Last years election was very close and up until the voting ended, it remained very clean. It was the perfect example of how two candidates, with promising goals, competed for a spot. One candidate won, the other lost....thats the way it goes. It was clear that the election was not in any way shape or form one-sided or rigged. Tactics like this website and the list that lie and create a false image of what you consider the enemy are LAZY. A long time ago some people got together and strategically put together a plan for campus elections. It was organized and it worked. Get off your lazy and pessimistic ass and talk about what is important for this campus and this state. The losers always make "the machine" an issue....I think its an excuse to get the administration's and the Dean's sympathy...the truth is, nothing wrong has been done. In case you already hadnt guessed I was Greek but dropped out of my sorority sophomore year because of time commitment. I never had the desire to get in SGA or anything else really but I am a straight A student, I study all the time and you know what, I like to hang out with my friends and drink beer every once in a while. I am sick of the CW and people like you putting yourselves above the Greeks and acting as if we are illegitimate people without our own brains to think for ourselves. As for the machine and the "sick perversion" of voting rights, anyone with a brain knows they can vote for who they want to and no one would know. DUH! Have you ever entertained the thought that they might vote a certain way because they like that person and can relate to that person? That person may have been a leader within a pledge class, or a close friend during fraternity or sorority rush, or and dare I say it...a fellow bar hopper that'll go to the library with you for hours before Gallette's but would make sure they were the sober one to take everyone home safely. Taylor, leaders come in all forms and your narrowminded outlook and judgmental attitude is one that couldnt possibly know whats best for the entire campus. The Greeks make up a lot of the campus and are a pretty diverse group of people regardless of what you may think. If the SGA was run by people like you, you wouldnt acknowledge the greek system and since you've always put yourself above it then well, the average student, that parties every night and misses at least a class a week but still is focused on their future, you'll totally ignore them. You and the people you work with do not have any understanding or concern for the average student. Bottom Line: Dont talk about what you dont know and realize that attacking the Greek System hurts A LOT of people's feelings as well as pisses a lot of people off. And the list, come on Taylor, go to the Strip every once in a while and see the patterns.....it was and never has been a "real" secret about who is in it....its our friends and they are cool, awesome, and RESPECTABLE people and while sometimes people disagree with what they decide....they get over it bc they wouldnt jeopardize a great friendship for the sake a campus election this early on in life. Instead, they work together. As for voter apathy, you are the reason for it because you act like the elections are always more complicated than they really are. Acting like there is this supernatural force called the machine is what makes people NOT vote bc they dont think it matters. Instead you work on getting Greek votes by criticizing their peers which clearly shows that this isnt about the good of the campus, this is about revenge and taking power. Wrong approach, wrong approach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.132.247.97 (talk • contribs)

Note from an administrator
Hi, I'm the administrator who protected this page from editing. I understand that this is a very controversial topic, but it's not good to edit war like the two (or more) of you have been doing. As an uninterested party, my suggestion would be to leave the list of Theta Nu Espilon members out...I don't believe it's necessarily encyclopedic, and since the information is not readily verifiable, it shouldn't go in Wikipedia. I'm not going to take one side or the other, again, but my opinion is to leave the names out of it. There are other places (free web hosts like GeoCities, for example) to bring biased opinions to. Our goal is to eliminate bias, retaining a neutral point of view that does not condone one view or opinion over another. Please keep this in mind when the article is unprotected. Ral 315  16:47, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sources ???!!!!
If it is an original research it should be deleted. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex Bakharev (talk • contribs)
 * Hi, I have no connections whatsover to Alabama University, but should the contoversial subject like this be sourced?

incorrect information

 * The information in regard to this year's SGA president is incorrect and should be corrected or removed. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.117.71 (talk • contribs)

Unprotected
Protected for eight days from vandalism. --Tony Sidaway Talk 12:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Informational article

 * Personally I don't care if you leave the article up, but it should be turned into an informational artcile and all speculations should be taken out. This has nothing to do with fear or intimidation, as you claim, Greek candidates are good candidates. Don't lie to yourself and act like you don't think the average sorority girl and fraternity boy are dumb children wasting there daddy's money on an education of sex and alcohol. Well the job of the "machine" is to prove that these speculations are not true.  Greeks deserve someone to fight for them. I have been in interviews were I was chastised for being Greek.  How is that fair?  The Greek system, as a whole, is an intelligent organization, look at our GPA's. I think that Greeks are intelligent enough to vote for good candidates and you are just mad because they are actually willing to.  I am sorry that Greeks are ambitious but you should have known that, they had enough ambition to join a Sorority or Fraternity in the first place.  Don't act like people are getting beat up and yelled at, that is simply not true.  I would never continue my membership in a Greek organization if it was. You use that to get people, including administration, on your side and that is just as sad as using intimidation and fear.  Grow up, get organized and then we can talk. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.62.148.45 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 26 September 2005  (UTC)

A Long-considered Response

 * I was fairly hesitant about dignifying the above comments with a response, but since there are legitimate editors who have questions, I decided to post again. I would appreciate honest discussion about this topic, rather than the same old tired propaganda.  It would be refreshing, I think.

Before I discuss the article itself, allow me to address the context. Editors, you may skip to the last four paragraphs.

I'm glad that Miss Anonymous thinks that the SGA needs to be made up of "real people, not people playing dress-up". I think so too, I just wish she would put her money where her mouth is.

I resent the implication that I am lazy--you apparently aren't very familiar with me. I also resent the implication that I don't represent the average student or care about Greeks. It is a hallmark of Machine reps and supporters to frame the debate as Greek vs. Independent, when Theta Nu Epsilon in fact hurts the Greek system as much as it hurts independents. You shouldn't have to be friends with "the right people" to run for office--that's the beauty of democracy. The division Machine politics create on our campus is palpable--the "us versus them" mentality is detrimental to our social atmosphere. It's pretty sad when people intentionally avoid each other just because one of them is in a social club and the other isn't. Virtually every single one of my friends at other universities (Greek or not) believe that our campus society is horrible, and I agree. It's downright corrosive.

Some of us have managed to overcome it--though I am a self-professed "Goddamn Independent" (who doesn't know his place), many of my best friends and even my girlfriend are Greek. In fact, I often speculate that I would have gone Greek myself had the Machine not existed. I would even dare to suggest that I might be an asset to the Greek system. And if I were in office, I certainly wouldn't ignore Greeks--they contribute a lot to our campus. The difference is that I wouldn't ignore independents.

It's hilarious that you would suggest that the annual harassment and intimidation are somehow my fault. Theta Nu Epsilon knows exactly what they're doing, and they know it's wrong--that's why they're secret. It's also laughable that such a large and "diverse" Greek system who represents the most disenfranchised electorate since the Soviet Union would somehow magically all support the same candidates without a hint of dissention or challenge.

To the second Machine supporter: the article is informational. It is clear that you are either lying or are not fully informed, but your ignorance of the events occurring at the University of Alabama is no reason to remove factual material. I readily admit that some facts are probably not entirely accurate--in particular, information about budgetary and organizational structure are somewhat suspect. If Theta Nu Epsilon were to engage in open political debate rather than underground corruption and cronyism, the erroneous information could be removed. As it currently stands, this is not possible.

To clear up other arguments and suggestions: no, "the list" is not encyclopedic--but then I doubt the original poster thought it was either. It's appropriate that it be removed.

The information posted is not original research--much of it is openly available in campus newspaper archives, and much of it was known to me personally before its posting. It could be appropriate to treat it in much the same way you would treat articles concerning the Mafia or the Ku Klux Klan--what is not absolutely proven probably cannot be, due to the secrecy of Theta Nu Epsilon (in essence, there is no "other side"). That is not to say it cannot be double-checked.

For those editors doubting the veracity of the article's claims, it should be understood that TNE's existence is for all intents and purposes a fully accepted fact on campus, among students, faculty, and administration, and has been the subject of newspaper reports, magazine exposes (the Esquire article is particularly good), and even a documentary film by Alabama Public Television. TNE's daily operations are observed by Greeks who then pass it on as they see fit--it is extremely difficult to remain secret while attempting to control several thousand people. The list was in fact originally released by a Machine rep.

I am willing to be open and honest--if there are questions regarding specific facts, you may ask and I will respond as time permits. In the meantime, I'll be studying for my beast of a midterm.

- Taylor Reed Nichols --(added by User:68.62.145.57)

A
-A --(added by User:68.62.148.136)
 * Hi, I'm a member of a fraternity here on campus; one that has quite a heavy involvement in the machine. I know how it works. Much of what people say about the machine is out of frustration. They use words like "corruption" when the machine is simply a very good form of organization. The election is never rigged, and no real cheating ever takes place, not anymore. We endorse canidates, and if you want to vote for them, you can, but you don't have to, but then again, most all of us do because the things we choose to vote for do the most for us. In this country there are two main parties. What is there was the Republicans, and then a bunch of third parties? The Republicans would win every time. That's how the machine works. Plain and simple organization. Think of it as a political party. I would however, leave the individual names out of it. The machine plays by the rules, but that doesn't mean it has to. Just a piece of advice : ) If you have questions for me let me know, I'm not going to go telling secrets or anything, but whoever reads your little article might as well be getting accurate info.

Greeks

 * So, Greeks are saying that "the machine" doesn't force people to vote, and that the Greek system is composed of a diverse array of people. Well, I am also Greek, and I think that the Greek system here at Alabama is pretty screwed up.  As a freshman I was specifically told to vote a certain way, and was also threatened with repercussions if I did not.  All of the pledges were told that our "superiors" would KNOW who we voted for, so we better do as told "or else."  Personally I don't think that encourages independent thought and action.  I knew that no one would be able to tell who I voted for, so I voted for the candidate that I personally believed was the best.  And I am proud of that. I am ashamed to be a part of an organization that encourages lying and psychological manipulation. On the second note, diversity?  You have got to be kidding me.  Yes, there are many different types of people in the Greek system, but they are expected to conform to "tradition" and the group consensus.  If you don't conform in at least a few areas, you will be shunned and abused.  And unfortunately, the "group consensus" is formed by a select few people who gain power in a way that is much like a mini-Machine, and like the Machine, they maintain their power by keeping other's as ignorant as possible and deliberately manipulating.  There are many good people in the Greek system.  But unfortunately, it is human nature to be a follower, and once people stop thinking for themselves, they become dangerous. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.28.154 (talk • contribs)


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In Response to A

 * A's description of the Machine is to be expected from someone who hasn't been involved in campaigning on campus for an SGA position (especially AGAINST the Machine). He is right when he says that the machine is a good form of organization (they should be commended) and that the election is never rigged (though they've tried and failed). However, if he were to have read the University's SGA elections campaign rules, he would realize that indeed the Machine does cheat and does not operate within the confines of those rules--which is one of the major reasons that the organization is underground. Many frustrated people do use words like corruption, but their reasoning is grounded. Every year (not just in the past, but every year) the machine cheats its candidates into office--primarily through, but not limited to, financial means. Blatant overspending of the $600 budget limit (by hundreds of dollars) and failure to disclose this spending are the norm. This money (initially paid as dues to the machine from Greek houses that is then filtered down to candidates) goes to rent vans to transport their voters to the polls and pays for hundreds of dollars worth of chalk, fabric, paint, paper, banners, t-shirts, flyers, stickers, buttons, signs, etc. One has to realize that the Machine exists to make sure that their candidates get into office AT ALL COSTS. So, overspending is part of their strategy. And even more shocking, when seriously threatened, you have situations like the assault of Minda Riley by Machine cronies in the early '90s.

Yes, the Machine should be commended for its organization and for its effectiveness in electing its people into office, but the 'pats on the back' should stop right there. The Machine IS corrupt and is a relic of a time long gone.

-John C. Watkins V (wiki member: Jorge1767) - added by User:Jorge1767)

deletion not reverted

 * This page is too busy for me to know it was a vandal.Mikereichold 23:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Machine Doode

 * I was a machine member, candidate and head of the machine and so write from facts not the endless BS that is in the main article and this discussion page.

This entire article is almost 100 % BS.

The campus politics is like at the child level and mainly running around to no purpose.

The machine has had though a longer list of later well known politico's.

The main changes the past decades since I was there is to include female candidates, which always in earlier times participated but mainly via the male run machine.

I think the dirtiest events that ever occurred during times I know what occurred were all from non machine politicos who stuffed ballot boxes, started endless severe false rumors about opponents esp the last moments the nite before a vote. All forms of fraud and all done by the opponents to the machine, an aspect of this article not covered at all. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.72 (talk • contribs)

Cleanup needed
A few things I see, but I've only glanced: I hope that others who know more about the topic can help by cleaning up this article -Harmil 20:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The intro section is 7 paragraphs long, placing the TOC beyond the end of the page for most browsers, and providing too much information for someone looking to skim the intro for basic facts.
 * Many key terms are not linked
 * "SGA Senate" and other local terminology not explained.

Cleanup done

 * I believe that the article is sufficiently cleaned, and I am removing the tag.

As for the POV check, the subject has been debated in the discussion page, but no factual errors have been pointed out, nor have there been any changes to the article itself despite the available means to do so. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.102.36 (talk • contribs)

322

 * Gee, why doesn't the timing of the Newsweek article surprise me?

"Newsweek published a web exclusive article on March 22, 2004"

Good old March 22, beloved by many powerful people and wannabes.

Not to be forgotten is February 23... but that's another matter.

Perpetual motion does not exist - ALL machines eventually break. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.186.47.170 (talk • contribs)

Cleanup of article

 * I pretty much overhauled the article, trying to reduce redundancies, POV, unverifiable statements and controversial unsourced statements. There is a great deal more to be done, especially with the referencing. For the time being I'll just keep an eye out for malicious editing. --Dystopos 02:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed sections
I removed the following sections because the content is unsourced and largely unverifiable:


 * ==Influence==
 * The Machine almost perpetually holds a supermajority of seats in the SGA Senate (the representative legislative body of the SGA) due to the majority of students voting for their candidates and all but one of the offices in the SGA Executive Board, including the Presidency and the five Vice Presidencies. Currently, the token non-Machine office is the Executive Secretary.
 * The Machine also has a history of being inducted into honor societies, insuring that each honor society has a majority of greeks who may vote for the slate of candidates for offices within the honor society, and who will perpetuate the Machine majority for the next year's inductees. Honor societies alleged to be under Machine control include Lambda Sigma, Cardinal Key, and Omicron Delta Kappa.
 * The Machine also organizes candidates for the Homecoming Court and candidates for Homecoming Queen.


 * ==Methods==
 * Depending on the urgency of the election at hand, the Machine may simply state (through its reps) that it expects fraternity and sorority members to vote for the Machine nominee. Given its sometimes violent history and ominous mystique, this is often all that needs to be done.
 * On election days, the Machine coordinates shuttles that give rides to Greek members to ensure they vote. In the past, the Machine has been known to "stack" voting lines with Greek pledges or subordinates in order to make voting a longer process. This is apparently done to pare down the voting pool.
 * In order to attract candidates and volunteers, the Machine often makes promises such as membership in honor societies or appointed positions in the SGA. Candidates are provided with a campaign stipend, often far in excess of limits imposed by the University administration -- executive candidates receive as much as $2000 and senatorial candidates receive as much as $150-200 (the University imposed spending limits are presently $600 and $100, respectively).

Wikipedia is not the place to make allegations. Since the group is largely secret, it is unlikely that the extent of its influence is documented. Its methods may be, but specific accounts are needed, not "often does this" or "has been known to do that". --Dystopos 23:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup of talk page

 * Using the page history I have tried to reconstruct the sequence of comments and other edits and applied signatures for the numerous unsigned edits. This may be more tinkering than is strictly called-for, but I've done it in good faith for the benefit of later editors. --02:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleo Thomas

 * To someone who is better at editing wiki pages than I am: Cleo Thomas was a member of the Mallet Assembly. He wasn't simply "backed" by them. Also, I am unaware of any associations he had with any black fraternities. He did, however, use the sororities to gain votes and help him campaign. The information regarding that part of it is correct.

My authority comes from the fact that I am a Malleteer and he is one of our most treasured members. If someone could clean up the section about him, that would be awesome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.160.217.169 (talk) 21:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Check for neutrality
Can anyone provide his or her opinion on the neutrality of this article? The structure of this article lends itself to bias IMHO. hello, i'm a member  |  talk to me!  00:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC) After a quick browse, I do get a feeling that the article is somewhat biased in tone against The Machine, but it is a fascinating and lengthy treatment. It needs some minor editing for NPOV and also considerable citation. I hope, however, that such editing is done with a light touch, as this obscure but important and interesting topic is what Wikipedia is all about. I'd hate to see the baby thrown out with the bath water.
 * Outside Comment

Quite frankly, it could also use some editing for grammar and style. Apollo (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Lee Garrison
It should also be noted, though not mentioned in the article, that Lee Garrison was elected to the Tuscaloosa City Council while still a student at UA. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.223.27 (talk • contribs)
 * You should mention what Garrison (and his female companion) had to do with the Machine. Then, provide the source, and add it. Drmies (talk) 04:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

1st person account / 2015 update

 * Smith, Alex (October 26, 2015) "Why I'm leaving the Machine" The Crimson White --Dystopos (talk) 01:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Elbein, Asher (October 13, 2015) "A Shifting Tide?" The Bitter Southerner --Dystopos (talk) 19:21, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Established date?
Does anyone have specific suggestions on what should be used as the Establishment year for The Machine? (I'm looking to add this to and what to know what should be XXXX (note, the decades and the centuries have categories as well, so a suggestion of 1880s (for example) is fine.Naraht (talk) 16:56, 11 May 2016 (UTC)