Talk:The Magic Flute (1975 film)



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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the debate was no consensus. Since there was consensus to move Die Zauberflöte to The Magic Flute, this has to be moved, though, so I did. &mdash; Nightstallion (?) 00:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I have suggested that this article be moved to The Magic Flute (film) or The Magic Flute (Bergmann) to leave primary usage for the opera; and to diambiguate before Branagh;s film shows up. Septentrionalis 06:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * We may as well anticipate the Branagh film and have the Bergman one at The Magic Flute (1975 film) and the Branagh one at The Magic Flute (2006 film). I believe that it's standard to disambiguate films with the same title by year rather than by director. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

However,
 * Oppose That overcomplicates the matter. There is also a book named Magic Flute, and other work. Gryffindor  01:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppposed to moving to Magic Flute-Bergman since it is overcomplication.
 * Agree that moving to MAGIC FLUTE (film) does make some sense, as other versions may come along over time and all can be grouped together. I wrote/edited most of what we now see under the Bergman film. Vivaverdi 01:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

(Disambiguation)
How about The Magic Flute (1975 film), The Magic Flute (2006 film), and The Magic Flute (children's book)? Her Pegship 06:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable to me, but then I wanted to disambiguate before. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a good idea until the 2006 film and the book have articles written about them that are more than stubs. Tamino 09:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Tamino. Let's wait till there is something to werite about. Vivaverdi 16:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

(Children's book)
I have moved the children's book to the main Magic Flute article, since it doesn't belong in an article on films. The Singing Badger 20:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

(Adaptation)
I think that the article should mention more of Bergman's deliberate changes from the libretto or traditional staging. Supposedly the opera is set in Egypt; Bergman uses a snowy northern setting (Sweden?) and the "Masonic" Temple looks like a monastery. Monostatos is portrayed as a white man, thus avoiding the unpleasant racist connotations in the original libretto (the English subtitles still call him a "Moor" but I don't know if that was in the original Swedish script). Papageno's mentor ad-libs a line "Why do they send me the problem cases?!" At the end Sarastro does not preside over the finale but abdicates and departs on a quest (an idea that originated with Goethe and has been used in some other productions) CharlesTheBold 18:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * He not only altered the plot, he also translated the libretto (from German into Swedish). Bostoner (talk) 01:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Magic flute.jpg
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BetacommandBot 23:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

PoV/OR in "Adaptation" secn
I suppose the elevator speech against that section is that it implicitly claims to read the director's mind. I reworded from "and has a good claim, morally and legally, to her custody." bcz we have no idea of the local laws, every reason to believe Sarastro sees himself as the spokesperson for true morality (above the law), and the morality of family relations is fraught with PoV. I removed
 * The Queen presents herself as a good person and grieving mother - but she casts a sly sideways glance at Tamino, as if asking "Is he buying this?"

bcz the wording suggests the editor's personal construction (NOR), and bcz even the "real" meaning of actors' gestures ("sly", "as if ...") is non-notable without evidence of substantial consensus among professional critics of serious opera and film. I reworded as indicated by the strikeouts in the following:
 * Bergman is not alone on this point. This scene is more annoying than entertaining, and is often left out of productions of The Magic Flute.

Don't read their minds; provide a ref for aesthetic judgments. Similarly:
 * In fact, there are no longer any indications that the story is set in ancient Egypt . It becomes a universal story, not tied to any specific , and only architecture and technology hint at time or place.

(I insist that the temple set, and the Leonardesque vehicle carrying the three boys -- Hmm, i expected them earlier than where "Drei Knäbchen" is Englished as "Three spirits" (when they are predicted at p. 44-45), so they seem to sing on pp. 53-55 -- do speak, loosely, of time and place, and even no tie at all to time and space may fall far short "a universal story".    I'm not well-informed about the stage-production conventions, but when the character of Papageno is established beyond the immediately preceding famous aria (where he claims to be "known to young and old throughout the whole land", and which Tamino has just hidden to listen to), we have (original German and English rendering both per G. Schirmer 1941, 1951 English edn, based on 1728 edn.):
 * (At p. 24)
 * Tam.: (tritt ihm entgegen): Heda!
 * ((steps in his way) Hey, there!)
 * Pap.: Was da?
 * (Who's there?)
 * Tam.: Sag mir, lustiger Freund, wer du bist.
 * (Tell me who you are, my jolly friend.)
 * Pap.: Wer bin ich? (Fūr sich:) Dumme Frage! (laut:) Ein Mensch, wie du. Wenn ich dich nun fragte, wer du bist?
 * (Who am I? (To himself:) Silly question! (To Tamino:) A man, like you. Suppose I asked who you were?)
 * Tam.: So wũrde ich dir antworten, dass ich aus fürstlichem Geblüt bin.
 * (Then I would tell you that I am of noble blood.)

(I note that, in contrast to lyrics, these spoken passages are translated with no more idiomatic liberties than rendering "Was da", literally "What there?", with "Who's there?": None of the above translation surprised me nearly that as much as that single line.) Please note that Papageno, the thoro rustic, is probably not even offended at going unrecognized; he may simply be no respecter of persons, rather than defensive, and responding "Why would you ask? A man's a man for a' that, so who cares?" If so, Tamino's response of "Well, since you ask, i'm a prince" shows no sign of him taking Papageno for more or less than an ordinary peasant; his wearing of feathers may, as far as any concern on his or anyone's part, well be adequately explained by his occupation: "the Bird-catcher, that's me indeed!", the guy who has all the feathers he could ever want available. In any case, for all we know from the text when "the Moor" (p. 46) and Papageno encounter each other unexpectedly (pp. 48-49), each takes the other for "the devil, surely", seeks pity and mercy, and flees the other. If something in the traditional staging clarifies why these two mocked figures find each other devilish, and (in the case of how the moor sees Pap.) pins it on being "strange" and "bird-like" rather than just dressed with feathers, we need more info on that, rather than our editor's insinuation that Papageno is portrayed as monstrous in anyone's production. I simply removed to here, for future consideration when there's more info:
 * Papageno is no longer a strange bird-like human, but an ordinary human being, as is Papagena later on. Accordingly, the plot twist of Monostatos being as frightened of Papageno as Papageno is of him is totally eliminated.

bcz i cannot tell even if Pamina's temporary escape is cut, nor if the whole trio is cut, but only that the passage we had is PoV-ridden and un-ref'd.    I simply cut
 * The latter is now followed immediately by the Queen of the Night's invasion of Sarastro's domain.

That detail may be significant, but it is just pointlessly confusing unless we are told how it is relevant to the interchange of two events which results in the juxtaposition. Could it be about pacing? I cut
 * In the Bergman film, as in most stage versions, she is depicted as thoroughly evil.

What communicates that, BTW? In any case, the "Adaptation" section should be about Bergman's innovations, not what he left alone. I rewrote the 2 mysteriously alienated 'graphs
 * When the invasion is defeated, Monostatos commits suicide with a dagger.


 * The Queen, on the other hand, laughs. She knows the game is far from over.

as one:
 * Upon the defeat of their invasion, Monostatos commits suicide with a dagger, and the Queen laughs.

with both the gratuitous contrast and the unsupported claim as to its explanation omitted. If qualified critics have spoken on the explanation, we need to cite them. --Jerzy•t 06:23, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Who are the Three?
Does anyone have the names of the young actors/singers who play the Boys/Spirits? Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Young girl in the audience is Bergman's daughter, not his granddaughter.
The description was changed in "23:47, 1 April 2011‎ Vlastimil Svoboda", based on incorrect information: "all of Bergman's daughters were far too old in 1975 to match the appearance of the young girl in this film" to quote the comment of the change. Bergman's daughter with Liv Ullmann was born in 1966, so she was 8 or 9 years old around the time of filming, perfectly matching the appearance of the young girl.

Furthermore, in "Bergman's Muses: Aesthetic Versatility in Film, Theatre, Television, and Radio", author Egil Törnqvist identifies the girl as Bergman's daughter (but does not identify her further) (see p.68 of the edition on Google Books).

So unless there are objections, I'm going to change the description back to "daughter" from "granddaughter". Ndokos (talk) 06:30, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Daughter or granddaughter, for cinema viewing she should have been cut, as anyone who has watched the film with an audience of schoolchildren will confirm.   After the second appearance they sense manipulation ( they can sense it at lightyears' distance) and she is catcalled.    Pity she was kin, but it makes no difference.   The single weakness in the film, but almost fatal.Delahays (talk) 12:35, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Suit yourself.


 * The little girl is now grown up and has become a distinguished figure in the field of literature; see Linn Ullmann. It seems reasonable to draw the connection so I put in a mention. Opus33 (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Oops, re. daughter
Steene, which looks like a very serious source, says in effect that the claim that the little girl in the audience is Linn Ullmann is an urban myth, and specifies who is really was. I've amplified the footnote to indicate this. Opus33 (talk) 21:01, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Sam Gamgee
After watching Håkan Hagegård's interpretation of Papageno this film, I found a parallel with Sean Astin's Sam Gamgee in the Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films. A quick Internet search doesn't find a relation, but you may find a source about Jackson's team getting inspiration from Ingmar Bergman. --Error (talk) 12:30, 21 July 2018 (UTC)