Talk:The Master Musicians of Joujouka

Archive
Re: the archive: it is easy to point to any item you want to talk about by just going to the history file, bringing up the version you have an issue with and making a link out of it to talk about.

Disambiguation and Editing
The admin did the initial disambiguation beginnings according to things I saw him say on his talk page prior to my even coming into this page.

I haven't previously edited the article before doing the talk page discussion but have been an editor who could have edited in here for a long time. I had pretty much left wikipedia though before finding these MMOJ articles. Since the disambiguation, I have worked on trying to focus on giving acknowledgment to both bands with neutral tone and no non-verifiable or poorly sourced things being in any article I work on. Looking at the comment down the page, it may be that I will have to stop working on this because I can't work on it and start dealing with talk page arguing too.

I would like to work with anyone who has a complaint about any work I do but not to the point of having to deal with long arguing because my health is not the best.

There are now three group pages to differentiate between the groups for people visiting an article in any of the three articles: Master Musicians of Jajouka, Master Musicians of Joujouka, Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The third one will likely be redirected to the Master Musicians of Jajouka page because it's redundant given the group uses both names, such as on soundtracks.

On a side note, I think it looks like footnotes are back in vogue, so I guess the References sections I made from past guidance I'd received a long time ago from an admin not to use jump link Notes is not the current view, and so I'd better go back to jump links for the References section. I'll double check that soon with admins who have been focused on that subject in past citation style message board discussions in wikipedia. Emerman 05:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

question
Can someone confirm via published articles anywhere that Ahmed Attar "leads" the Master Musicians of Joujouka?
 * Never mind, I found the answer is yes, from old post in talk page history. Did not remember that had been said before. So that's great, I'm glad to know. Emerman 14:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

archive, discussion bias
I think this discussion should be unarchieved and that Emermans editing history and edits need to be examined. I will not be able too contribute to this much until the weekend. However if the change history of User BKlissenbee and User Emerman are examined on then you might see a similar agenda. I shall point to examples later. Emerman has been an antagonist in this debate and has then, after unprotecting edited several pages at his whim. His footnotes selective and incomplete to say the least and designed towards a certain spin. There is loads of material out there.

Creating a page for Frank Rynne when he is obviously hostile is poor show. Admin was this what you had in mind when you unprotected. Re The Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka page that I will post on that discussion at the weekend and the Joujouka page.But hold on there, this needs some more examination and time!!!

User:Opiumjones 23 02:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope you could you let us know if Ahmed Attar leads the group that you produce? And as for my footnotes, the only thing I didn't include that you had put in was a Clandermond book that doesn't appear to be listed in any library except at your personal store (had been searching for the publisher info left out of the site). I have added a ton of more references to the articles and the ones you previously were involved in often that I was at had no references at all previously. I'm not editing at a whim, and I thought my article on you was very NPOV. Do you have a problem with something in the article about you? Please let me know if anything in the article on you is incorrect. I'm still trying to add more info as I learn it but I have been trying to research a ton and it's a lot to do.


 * Unprotecting had nothing to do with my eventually going into edit. I could have edited any time I wanted to before then because I am not a new user; I just had not seen the articles previously. I'm sure I've been here longer than you. Protecting the page only affected people without a registered account in the way that it was previously protected. Emerman 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

List of Items User: Opiumjones23 Believes Should Be in Article
After checking in email I need to make sure that we address if there is anything more User:Opiumjones23 believes should be in this article. If so, it probably needs to be discussed here, not in email but I didn't realize that yesterday when I was first becoming aware of how public talk pages are. Unless he decides he is fine with email instead of dealing with here (he is busy just now and will get back to it on the weekend). I'll assume he likes this talk page for it unless I hear otherwise from him. Sorry I didn't understand the depth of this issue previously. I'm not sure I'm going to be the one who has the time to do all the reading involved in this but I can at least start this discussion back up because it needs to be done. There's a lot I didn't understand when I first came to the discussion board, I think and some ideas I had about Hamri's life were from the 1992 Davis book, but I found a timing discrepancy in that book today, I think, so I'm not sure about that book's credibility till I recheck. Both sides would need to list sources since this seems to still be in dispute from what I can see in email. I'm not sure I have time to deal with this much longer myself but I hope all is sorted out fine. Emerman 23:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

List of Items Related to the Article:
 * If any part of the story is disputed, please remind us of reasons and third party sources other than rumor or supposition but something reflecting the official current records. Please list any other items that you believe should go into the article such as those you think might be disputed because I don't remember just now all the differences between both groups. And sources we should consult.


 * Question I have - is the Clandermond book one that is sold outside the Hamri/mmjoujouka official website store? Who is the publisher - that wasn't in the previous citation. I can put it back in if it is a book sold outside a band site. I had trouble finding the publisher but will call my library today to do a worldcat search. Emerman 23:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC) Never mind, I had a librarian do a search of Books in Print and Worldcat today; it's not there. I think it is evidently a limited release book just at the Hamri/MMJoujouka online store. I'm sure it's interesting to read and I'll try to read it some time but it seems extremely limited in availablity unless buying from a band store website. Emerman 02:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

publisher Laurence Arnott Gallery Tangier, 2004 i guess their website has a phone no? also available on joujouka.net


 * Thanks, and I see that those two authors are listed elsewhere as having written an art dictionary. I will put the book back in related places like the Hamri article. I had to recheck the gallery spelling; it's "Lawrence" and is mentioned on some artist sites. Emerman 16:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Master Musicians of Joujouka credits 1971
User Svest Admin on this page, I think, has been emailed scans of the sleave notes including artist credits for   Master Musicians of Joujouka Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka, Rolling Stones Records 1971.

The Lp was recorded in 1967 and released in 1971.That puts Emermans assertion that this group cant include this disc in their discography in a different light.

Furthermore and much more importantly it proves that the name was being used by a Hamri group nearly 30 years before Emermans credited date of "forming" in the MMOJoujouka article.

In light of just this several of Emermans "facts" will have to be changed across all the pages he has been editing. User:Opiumjones 23 20:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have already answered the above comments at several other pages you also posted the above at so I won't repeat the answer again here. Emerman 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Awaiting admin
Awaiting admin on above

User:Opiumjones 23 02:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Most discussion has been removed to the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page on some of this. I have also responded to an email request from a concerned individual by editing myself (only, not other people) for sensitivity.

most of the players listed with this band and "credited" on the brian jones record, steel wheels record, laswell record, were either not born yet for the brian jones, nor record nor have they ever played with sub rosa group. any that have played with subrosa did not record on the records listed. several members listed are now dead, never played with the sub rosa group, and those that are alive, are currently playing with the master musicians of jajouka featuring bachir attar. the information posted is false and unsubstantiated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therealmmoj (talk • contribs) 17:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Clarify the issues in dispute please
The page Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka has a notice on it that 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.'

I'm surprised there isn't a notice, on this and other related pages, that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. I would recommend it.

This is a very interesting discussion, but the exact issues in dispute are unclear. Could Emerman please give a concise summary of his claims. This issue is very sensitive because so many of the parties are still living, and at first glance I wonder if this is the correct forum to resolve them in. It doesn't appear that there is any dispute concerning these issues any where else in the public domain.

The argument here also seems very one-sided, and interested parties should be given notice of the dispute here, and have an opportunity to respond.

My particular interest in this is over the effect of Westernising native tradition, and the international law implications. I'm going to post notice of this case to some specialists in human rights and native law, such as early Irish and native American, and see if there is any precedent on these issues. I'll get back to you in a while.

I would advise caution in proceeding too hastily with this matter. I'd also suggest narrowing discussion to one forum, since it is being cross-posted over numerous pages such as Master Musicians of Jajouka and Joujouka Tuathal 00:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I answered at the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page. Emerman 01:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC) Emerman 15:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources re "tribal leader" in fifties plus further inaccuracies
The below sentence from article is untrue.

"The master musicians of that early group were led by tribal chief Hadj Abdesalam Attar."

The above is factually incorrect in both of its main assertions 1/ re tribal leader and 2/ re being "leader" of the musicians. This one even if accompanied by a modern source is still 100% incorrect. Sherkin was lead rhiata player at this time (1950s}. As to "tribal" leader ????. The mountain range that Joujouka is in is called Ahl Srif after the tribe who live/lived there. I have never heard of the leader of the Ahl Srif tribe being from Joujouka. This is one of many inaccuracies in the current article. The group have been performing rather longer than the dated 1995. Gysin recorded them in 1950s. Timothy Leary? "Four Thousand Year Old Rock N Roll band" Jail Notes (London, 1970) places their origins in pre-history.  The first record was a french release in the sixties, the second Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka 1971, the third Master Musicians of Jajouka recorded 1972 released 1974. This was Mastered by Miles and Hamri in London possibly in 1973. Some musicians who have recorded and/or play  with this group have also recorded on all Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar output since the late 1980s. This may further complicate things for editiors with agendas like Emerman. In certain cases musicians actually from Joujouka/Jajouka who became involved in Bachir Attar's version have been allowed back into the Master Musicians of Joujouka i.e. the traditional Sufi group/brotherhood. I personally knew all the musicians still alive at the time of my first visit in 1994. Between the musicians there is no problem. They just didn't elect Bachir leader, a press release did. Those who have continued playing their sacred trance music in an authentic way lead themselves and their community in Joujouka. That is the way it is there in the vilage. I am sure that some editors will place the facts in order. The truth will keep the music alive!!!!!

User:Opiumjones 23 02:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Article protected
I've just protected this article and a few other related articles as per the mediation process going on at User:FayssalF/JK. Thanks for your understanding. -- FayssalF  - Wiki me up®  15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

any and all musicians still alive that played on the Brian Jones record, the Ornette Coleman record, the Joel Rubiner Record, Steel Wheels, and the Laswell record, are and were (until their death) members of the Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. his father, Hadj Abdesalam Attar was the undisputed leader until his death in 1982. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therealmmoj (talk • contribs) 17:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

New external link
I would like to add a link to the MythiMedia research project (Bologna University, Italy) http://www.mythimedia.org/. The project explores the presence of Greek mythology in today's culture, and contains an article entitled "W.S. Burroughs, Brian Jones and the Pipes of Pan of Joujouka" (http://www.mythimedia.org/pipes_of_pan_of_joujouka%20.html) [this is the address that should be linked]. The site is written in English. Fallingdrapery 00:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

this link is bogus

thanks for the help
cooperation is nice the page looks good seems better will look at the other pages soon have much research done now but will avoid long posts on discussion pages from now on!!

somewhat
indeed images are nice but maybe some more?

album covers?
if you have some perhaps upload?

perhaps a page for each release???
with links? do you have the cds etc?

or can doawnload covers later

details need footnotes how to do?

info box
Info box there remove tag?

re fair use brian jones original cover image
this seems to be the group of hamri the painter who brought this village and group to global attention, it is an album cover and therefore fair use regardless of one admin opinion. Only on astehic grounds should it be moved from the info box to elsewhere on the page I think. comment below. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.229.160.72 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it would be fair use to display an album cover in an article about that album. Adding it to an article about the artist is simply decorative, which isn't covered by fair use. Please review Wikipedia's fair use guidelines (specifically: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)"). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected
I have just semi-protected this article for 1 week, due to the ongoing edit war over external links, references etc. Also see the (apparently unresolved) mediation attempt (see User:FayssalF/JK). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The Master Musicians of Joujouka, Brian Jones and the Rolling Stones
In 1968 Rolling Stones Brian Jones recorded the Master Musicians Joujouka. Ref the LP Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Joujouka sleeve notes. The record was released on Rolling Stones Records in 1971.

User:Opiumjones 23 02:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion Moved to Mediation at User:FayssalF/JK
User:FayssalF/JKOpiumjones 23 (talk) 01:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Note re external links
I note that an anon Ip has blanked the external links on this page. It would be wise to reinstate them as they contain many refs and info re Master Musicians of Joujouka/Jajouka. NB I added some weeks ago external links on Master Muisicans of Jajouka featuring bachir Attar eg an interview with Bachir from the Walrus maga in Canada. The interview refs the original group and Bachir's one so it should be here too.Opiumjones 23 (talk) 10:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation
I am pretty sure that there used to be a hatnote at the top of this article, distinguishing this subject from The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar. I can't remember if there was a reason for removing it but I think the hatnote was, and will be, helpful. But given the editing history of this particular article, I thought I would mention it here before doing so. (Note that the other article does have a hatnote.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Y Done. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Schism
(Cross-posted to Talk:The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar) I am not sure why Lee Ranaldo's essay was removed as a source. The paragraph beginning with "In the time since my visit to Jajouka I have been made aware of a situation ..." is an even-handed, neutral account acknowledging (if not describing) the schism between the two musical groups. I propose restoring a brief explanation, based on Ranaldo's writing, to both articles. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added a "Schism" section to briefly deal with the split between the two groups. I hope I have done this in as neutral a way as possible.  I have used the same text and references (including the Lee Ranaldo piece) in both articles.  The split should certainly be mentioned. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 02:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Another potential source: New York Times article from 1995 . this appears (without a link) under "Further reading" in the Jajouka article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And another, from The Independent, 1995 . This was at User:FayssalF/JK, where FayssalF was attempting to moderate the article issues; one of the involved parties rejected it outright over the "Jajouka/Joujouka" spelling, but not for the actual content itself (so far as I can tell; see also TL;DR).  It is certainly suitable for citing the fact that the schism exists. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Professor Philip Schuyler's essay is also a source for the schism but some of his conclusions and suppositions are based on the 1990s don't seem accurate today. Philip Schuyler Joujouka/Jajouka/Zahjoukah Moroccan Music and Euro-American Imagination from Mass Mediations Ed.Walter Armbrust, New Approaches to Popular Culture in the Middle East and Beyond UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS 2000 available to read, http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8k4008kx&chunk.id=s1.6.43&toc.id=ch6&toc.depth=1&brand=ucpress&anchor.id=d0e4065#X — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.152.161.176 (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

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Jajouka between the mountains
I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjQefHjLSTo which is an album by this group that's not in their discography. I know little of this band or the type of music surrounding it and I can't find much citation about this album anywhere, I am encouraging people who are knowledgeable about this band (or are better at digging out information than I am) to research this album and either confirm or debunk its existence as a Master Musicians of Joujouka album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.121.66 (talk) 23:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's part of the other band's discography (Jajouka, not Joujouka). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)