Talk:The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (novel)/Archive 5

Copyedits
Time to lay down the grammar hammer =). This article still needs a whole lot of work but I made a dent in the grammar and word usage.

Japanese translation woes:


 * There's *way too many words*
 * Use of semicolons when the sentence needs to be rearranged —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SayWhatYouMeanAndMeanWhatYouSay (talk • contribs) 08:22, 28 July 2006 UTC.


 * Copyedits? While I may admit that there is a lot of Japanese terms unexplained in the context of the article, most of them were put in there from the information given by the anime and it's not like they were copied from an article or website like the template you provided suggests.
 * Plus, some of the edits you made made me wonder a little. First, you changed 'first year' and 'second year' which pertain to Japanese schools to 'freshman' and 'sophmore' which pertain to American schools. This story is told in Japan, so a fair amount of Japanese terms must be used accordingly. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 09:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand what a copyedit is. See How to copy-edit. Copy-editing involves the improvement of grammar and punctuation, and the correction of misspellings. Copy-editing extends to rephrasing to improve tone, style and cohesion and texture. The term copy-editing comes from organizations that deal with printed media; it is loosely applied here. --SayWhatYouMeanAndMeanWhatYouSay 10:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, you win on the sophomore/freshman stuff. The grammar of this article is still appalling, and major copyedits will need to be done to improve this article. --SayWhatYouMeanAndMeanWhatYouSay 10:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed it to a regular copyedit tag since this article isn't a rough translation of the Japanese article. --TheFarix (Talk) 15:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This might not belong here, but it does relate to it. The new line, "Kunikida also seems to be very down-to-Earth, much like Kyon." sounds very speculative to me, and the only events in the anime I can think of that support this are the times when he goes against Taniguchi's idea of picking up girls or rating girls. Perhaps something less speculative can take its place, though I'm not sure what. --Wirbelwind 11:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I will be making some grammar edits here and there. KyuuA4 22:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Integrated Data Entity
I don't understand this section of the article at all. It is the least clear section of this article.

This section of the article has been cleaned up for GRAMMAR ONLY, and it needs somebody else to go over it a second time for grammar again because I'm sure I missed a few errors. This section is very unclear about what "nonphysical data" is, how humans "seek and obtain" nonphysical data, and why Yuki Nagato becomes a member of the team because of the "necessary silent character" requirement. --SayWhatYouMeanAndMeanWhatYouSay 19:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there another English word that could be used instead of "nonphysical data"? It's clumsy. --SayWhatYouMeanAndMeanWhatYouSay 19:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Try to use as few words as possible. Less is more. --SayWhatYouMeanAndMeanWhatYouSay 19:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Article size
Alright, so the article is now at 37 KB, so would it be possible in any way to split the article again? The first thing I thought was split the characters section, since it seems the most logical option if the split were to take place. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 08:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * To be honest 37 KB doesn't seem large enough to split, really. -- Ned Scott 08:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, but it has been growing steadily for the past few weeks now, and I'm just giving a heads up on a possible split in the future. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 09:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is an size warning when one goes into edit. I agree that characters would be the best page to split off.  I guess it just depends how much smaller the page would be if we split it off. FleetAdmiralJ 14:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to rush it, as it doesn't have 436 petabytes of data yet. But on a more serious note, the article should just be monitored if it gets bigger for now, since I don't think it's growing alarmingly fast.  --Wirbelwind 03:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The character section is also largely duplicated on the Suzumiya Haruhi (series) page. Merging one into the other, or splitting both onto a new page is probably good idea.  BlckKnght 00:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with that since they are both redundant of each other and having them in one place would be simpler for viewing. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 00:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If it gets too large, the characters section can be split into a section of its own, with a summary left on the main page, similar to Fullmetal Alchemist and Main characters of Fullmetal Alchemist for example, and then linked from both, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and the Suzumiya Haruhi (series) page. Ganryuu 06:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

So, what do the main folks of Wiki recommend regarding article file size? This Haruhi article is average in comparison to most Wiki articles. KyuuA4 23:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think splits are mostly needed when a section gets too large, not the article itself. As long as everything stays balanced, articles can usually get pretty large without much of a problem. As it is though, the character section really dominates the article; I think it should probably be split. --SeizureDog 23:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's still 37kB after a month, so I don't really see a reason to yet. It might go down if we cut down on the number of genres you people are putting it under though =D  j/k --Wirbelwind 00:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And also to once again bring up the prospect of merging the characters section from this article and the Suzumiya Haruhi (series) article together due to redundancy. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 01:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Philosophical?
What's "philosophical, postmodern, psychological" in The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya?
 * The thought that God might not know she's God. -Iopq 03:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It covers Existentialism pretty strongly. 172.206.199.192 02:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It certainly makes me start to ponder that kind of thing (i.e. if God might do that if she doesn't know she's God, what would she do if she did know?) .... &mdash;Yar Kramer 14:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Underlying theme?
Call me crazy,but I believe that Kyon,who has lost his sense of wonder,is stuck with Haruhi,who retains hers. R.G. 04:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Focus this page on the anime
I think it is very awkward that this article covers both the light novel volume titled The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and the anime of the same name. This makes it overlap a great deal with Suzumiya Haruhi (series), and as a result, neither article seems to know precisely what its topic is. I propose that we make this article be about the anime version, and the other page can be more specifically about the light novel series (and perhaps the manga), with a big link here when it mentions the anime adaptation. The parts that are already nearly the same between the two versions (the characters, for example) should be merged together, probably onto a seperate page.

Perhaps we should even rename this page to The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) and have The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya redirect to the new name or to Suzumiya Haruhi (series) (or be a disambuguation page). Actually, as I think of page renaming, Suzumiya Haruhi (series) should probably become Haruhi Suzumiya (series) to comply with the manual of style.

Anyway, if there is a consensus in favor of this (or at least no consensus against it) I will start making changes in this direction. -- BlckKnght 02:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * First off, like it or not, this is the main article of the Haruhi Suzumiya series and even though the Suzumiya Haruhi (series) article is about the source material for the anime itself, it is still sub-par to this article with sheer content alone. Also, the fact that the light novel is touched upon in the article is to show what the anime is based on and where the name "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" spawned from. It's not that awkward to have such a layout. However, I do agree with the character split and a merger into its own article. And as for the renaming of the Suzumiya Haruhi (series) page, the reason that it was kept the way it was is because of the manual of style. It says:


 * If the name in question is a title (i.e., of a book, an award, etc.), the name order within the title itself should not be changed. For example, the Ina Nobuo Award should not be changed to Nobuo Ina Award even though Nobuo Ina is a modern figure as defined above. However, a redirect pointing at Ina Nobuo Award should be put in place for Nobuo Ina Award in order to avoid any possible confusion.


 * So no, I do not agree with this proposal and believe it should be kept the way it is. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 04:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that this article has more and better content than Suzumiya Haruhi (series), if we intend for this page to be the primary article for the novel and manga series as well we should merge all of the content into it and get rid of the series page. If we intend to keep more than one full size article, I think we need to focus them more than they are currently. My proposal is that this page (which has the name of the anime and of one volume of the novel series) should specifically deal with the anime (it largely does already) and the series page deal with everything else. Mostly it is just the introduction that seems badly confused at the moment, as it starts two several paragraphs about the novel, but only minimally discusses it again. Some of the description of the manga and novels are duplicated between the two pages, though the depth and quality varies. I think we should move the novel and manga descriptions to the series page and put some text at the top of this page (possibly generated via a template) saying more or less: ''This article describes the TV anime series titled The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. For the Japanese light novel and manga series of the same title, see Suzumiya Haruhi (series).'' The article intro would of course still refer to the anime being based off of the novels.

I understand your argument about the page renaming, and though I don't have a very strong opinion, I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you in this case. I guess I don't see "Suzumiya Haruhi (series)" as a proper title in itself, but rather a description of the series of novels featuring the character Haruhi Suzumiya (in contrast to The Lord of the Rings and Hyperion Cantos, two series that do have proper names). Furthermore, this article is titled with the name in western order, so it seems inconsistant for the article about the series to keep the Japanese order. Should this page move to The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi or Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu? I don't really think so, but it would be less awkward that the present situation. If an official English translation existed, it would help resolve the issue, I suppose, since the MoS says to use official translations where available. Anyway, I don't intend to move pages any time soon, though I may start making some merges between the two articles as I find time. -- BlckKnght 07:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, so you have some good ideas with your first paragraph to maybe make it more article-specific for the main one to be about the anime. But let me explain your flawd logic in your second paragraph. The article of the series is named Suzumiya Haruhi (series) because of the MoS and the fact that the novels in Japan are all listed as Suzumiya Haruhi no ______. This series cannot be accuratly described any other way due to each of the novels having a different ending word, though the thing they all share is the main character's name. Also, per this screencap here, we can see the official English title given. Those are not subtitles included with a fansub and appear in the original version, not to mention when the series gets licensed it will have the title The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya because that is the name it is already well-known by outside of Japan. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 06:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Additionally, Newsweek has referred to it as The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.--SeizureDog 21:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to concede the naming argument for now, but I wonder if we'll need to readdress it if/when the novels get official translations. Since their titles will presumably each be The _____ of Haruhi Suzumiya it would seem appropriate for the series page to use the western name order at that time. To the extent that I had a point in the discussion, it was that we could anticipate that event and rename the series page now. Anyway, that was not the main part of my proposal, and I'm glad to see there is some understanding about focusing the pages better. Now if only I had more time to work on them... --BlckKnght 23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The Stalking Haruhi site
Could this be used as a source for the setting portion and moved from the external links into the references/notes section? I think it feels more like reference material for the setting than it fits with the other links in EL. Kyaa the Catlord 08:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Rendering issues
Something on this article is causing firefox 1.5.0.7 to incorrectly render a lot of whitespace and/or garbage at the top of the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carterhawk (talk • contribs).

Ive removed the offending infobox until this issue is resolved.

Carterhawk 07:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This really isn't Wikipedia's problem. If you're having trouble with that browser, use a different browser. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 07:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This isn't occuring on mine and I'm using the same version of Firefox. Kyaa the Catlord 08:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Not seeing any rendering issues in Firefox 1.5.0.7, IE7RC, Lolifox 0.2.5r26 or Mozilla 1.8a4. What resolution are you using, can you take a screen shot of the problem and have you tried disabling all plugins? Shiroi Hane 21:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont have this trouble with other articles, at least none that i have seen.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9600/badpagesk5.png This image shows a snapshot of my firefox, at 1600x1200. I had to set the text size to the very lowest to get everything to show up within the browser window. Please note how small the horizantal scroll bar is, the page appears to be extremely wide. I can move an entire screen's width to the right, and the bar does not move. Carterhawk 03:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well.. that's not normal. Have you conpletely cleared your browser cache in case you've got some screwed up CSS cached? Shiroi Hane 16:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)