Talk:The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (novel)/Archive 6

Nominated for GA status
I've nominated this article for Good Article status. Good luck!

--TcDohl 02:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination failed
I failed this article due to it not meeting several of the GA criteria, and the lack of some critical information. Some of the more important problems are:


 * Almost complete lack of information on how the anime, manga or any related products were recieved, this should be covered in a seperate, well-referenced "Reception" section which covers the critical (and popular, if you can find references for it that adhere to WP:RS) reception of the subject. See Final Fantasy VII's "Reception" section for an excellent example of what to shoot for.

I agree, also talk about the precedent setting situation on youtube -empire

2. Be factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect:
 * According to the Good Article criteria, to qualify for GA status, an article must:
 * (a) provide references to any and all sources used for its material;
 * (b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required;
 * (c) sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources;
 * (d) contain no elements of original research.

For this article to meet those criteria, it is going to need a lot more than six references, which is all it currently has. Also, original research, even if true, has to go, that is official Wikipedia policy, and cannot be ignored. Verifiability, not truth.

What are we to reference other than the show itself? -empire


 * An over-abundance of non-notable trivia, especially in the character sections. For example, this information on "Kyon" actually being a nickname: "The name Kyon is actually a nickname bestowed upon him by his aunt. His sister is responsible for spreading its use to his schoolmates, much to the chagrin of Kyon, who misses being called Onii-chan (お兄ちゃん, Onii-chan? Lit. "older brother"). His real name remains unknown."
 * The information that it is a nickname and that his real name is never revealed could be useful, but as far as I can tell, how he got the nickname is completely irrelevant, and could be cut without compromising the integrity or comprehensiveness of his section.

Other examples of this unnecessary, sometimes fancrufty, detail are:
 * "an ability that Kyon refers to as "bogus magic.""
 * We don't need to know what Kyon calls it, the information is all but useless, and could be removed without any loss in quality.
 * "The President is never given a name other than "Computer Society President" or variations upon that term (all that is known of his name is the first syllable: "ya")"
 * Similar to Kyon, all we need to know here is that his real name is never given, the information that his name starts with "ya" is useless, and should be removed accordingly.
 * The "Chart history" section isn't very useful in its present form, which is just a bit of orphaned trivia floating around in the article, serving no real purpose. This particular bit, though, could be used in a "Reception" section, and does not have to be removed.


 * I don't see how this information damages the integrity of the article, or why anyone would ever want to REMOVE information in the first place. If the sentences are awkward rewrite them, but don't decrease the amount of information(usefulness) in the article. Imagine for a moment that you want to know what the first syllable of the computer club president's name, where do you look? Wikipedia! You my friend, are no fun at all. -said by empire —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.244.78 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 29 November 2006.


 * No, you go to the SOS-dan wiki for that kind of stuff, not Wikipedia. It's easy to forget that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a circle fanwank. Wikipedia may be fun to write for and read, but what you put into it is serious business. Please see Wikipedia's essay on Fancruft. It's not about the readability of the article itself, but the relevance of the content. --TcDohl 19:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This talks about the Integrated Data Entity as though it actually exists in the real world, rather than it existing as a fictional entity within a fictional universe.
 * A good amount of the article needs to be edited to comply with Manual of Style (writing about fiction). An example of the in-universe perspective writing that needs to be edited is this, "The Integrated Data Entity, also known as the Data Integration Thought Entity (情報統合思念体, Data Integration Thought Entity?), was born from the sea of data which covers the entire universe. As this data accumulated, the data gained consciousness and continued to evolve while obtaining more data until it met its own evolutionary dead-end."

Those are the major problems, but there are still a number of more minor (but still enough to make the article fail to meet the GA criteria) issues; these can be addressed after the major problems have been taken care of. Hargle 09:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge characters?
I once again bring up the issue of merging the characters sections from this article and the Suzumiya Haruhi (series) article together into its own article entitled Characters of Haruhi Suzumiya or perhaps Characters involved with Haruhi Suzumiya or maybe Characters relating to Haruhi Suzumiya. Whatever the article would be called, I would like to know what you guys think of this. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 00:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Per the fact that no one has even brought up anything more on this in the past 11 days, I am going to Be Bold and do it myself. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 06:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What are these?
Hi everyone, I'm looking for some info of what are these creatures:

http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imagen1wh8.png

May be, your could add some info of these draws that appear in all episodes, I have not idea of what are they...


 * Taken from SOS-dan Wiki, Trivia section: Aya Hirano, the seiyū of Haruhi Suzumiya, drew illustrations of her original character NekoMan for the background of sponsorship credits every week. -- (  十八  |   talk  ) 02:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You can see her drawing some on a blackboard in the extras for the 3rd (4th) DVD. Shiroi Hane 08:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Too much fancruft
Instead of making additions, why don't you guys trim down the size of the article and remove the fancruft/speculations, and leave that to the SOS-dan Wiki? You guys should really read why the GA nomination failed. I know this article could do so much better, and so instead of showing off the little nuances that only you seem to have picked up on, why don't you reduce everything down to the essentials and start referencing stuff?

--TcDohl 01:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Because that would suck and reduce the value of the page -empire —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.244.78 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 29 November 2006.


 * Please explain why and how that conforms to the Wikipedia manual of style or its policies. --TcDohl 19:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The Agency
It's true that "The Organisation" would be a more accurate translation, so some people might be wondering why "The Agency" was chosen instead, especially since Wikipedia has a big italicised scare sentence which basically implies the translations were wrong. :-)

The reason is probably that during Disappearance, when Kyon asks Itsuki if he's heard of an organisation called The Agency, Itsuki makes a crack asking whether Kyon meant the Central Intelligence Agency. And indeed, The Agency is a common nickname for the CIA, so it all falls together.

I wonder if we need to put a note like that in place of the scare. 150.101.121.216 11:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Good Omens
Has anyone read this book? I found a striking similarity between the situations of Adam Young and Haruhi. --Raijinili 04:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A little bit but the two stories aren't very alike otherwise. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 07:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That doesn't mean that there isn't a strong connection between the two characters. --Raijinili 18:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, the idea of a godlike but oblivious child/teenager certainly is suggestive (for all the differences, such as a focus on classic Americana like aliens and time-travelers as opposed to Adam's more traditional and rural "focus" for lack of a better word). But Good Omens hasn't been translated into Japanese, according to the GO page. The idea would probably have come from the author, Nagaru Tanigawa, but there's no mention of whether or not he is bilingual and so could have read it. I think there probably isn't a relationship, but on the other hand, I wouldn't've said that there were any links to Dan Simmon's stuff either! --Gwern (contribs) 05:36 18 January 2007 (GMT)

Could Haruhi Suzumiya be considered a "romance" as well?
The underlying romance aspect of this series really isn't the central theme to the whole story, but could it be argued to list Romance under the genre portion of the factbox? You can tell Haruhi has a tsundere thing going on with Kyon... 69.47.221.218 20:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if that can be argued, it's never central to the plot unless you think about the reason the things went the way they did in the final episode is because she was jealous that Kyon was showing more attention to Mikuru than to her. Still, this series already has even genres in the infobox, and since this one isn't explicit to the series, I would say not to include it.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 01:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 99% of any shows or films have some romantic sub-plot. The show doesn't revolve around it, so I say no. --SeizureDog 04:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The romance aspect does have much emphasis.  When it comes to categorizing anime by genre, it is best to look at the central theme.  Naturally, it is still possible to place certain series across different categories. KyuuA4 18:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't the origin of the story, Haruhi's interest in Kyon? That's what kicks off the club, her talking to Kyon, everyone mentioning their relationship... 132.205.93.88 21:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There isn't anything beyond infatuation yet, even though from the audience's perspective it is dead obvious from the Mystery Search or even the classroom seating. There is accusation from Haruhi in the later novels however, but nay, still nothing considered "romantic" for the entire series. ULTRAZORD 13:33, 19 December (UTC)
 * Except for Haruhi getting so jealous that Kyon was "straying" that she nearly rewrote the world. Kyaa the Catlord 13:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that all the rest was just a pretext to express how teen and pre-teen romances can "mean the end of the world" even if (and even more if) nothing happens. But of course that's just me. What would be the main genre then? Mistery?--SidiLemine 15:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Technocore / Data Integration Entity
The data integration entity has a whole lot in common with the Technocore from the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons. In fact, It's the same thing: A huge bunch of Impossibly intelligent and mighty AIs with no physical location, that attempts to get out of its evolutionary dead end by gaining empathy. The two first books of the Cantos (Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion) can be seen in Yuki's hands. I'd be amazed if the creators of the show never commented on that, so I'm leaving this here for further research. --SidiLemine 15:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's probably their way of giving kudos/reference, since it's harder to show something so subtle in the novels, aside from their actual similarity which people unfamiliar wouldn't pick up. That should be noted for Yuki, and if there's enough solid evidence, maybe a trivia section could be added.


 * The novels noted that Nagato was "reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that." 72.64.32.231 05:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If you actually freeze the frame on the book Nagato gives to Kyon, you will actually see that the book is in fact, Hyperion.
 * As I stated above, she also reads the sequel, the Fall of Hyperion later. --SidiLemine 13:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I' wrong, but is not the DIE a singular entity? The TechnoCore was very pluralistic and definitely multiple intelligences. If anything, I'd say that the machine UI is a much better candidate for being the inspiration for the DIE. --Gwern (contribs) 05:38 18 January 2007 (GMT)


 * Actually, you are ;). Yuki says several times that the different parts of the DIE do not have an accord on the Haruhi case, and that "a faction" wants to kill Kyon, while the others want to wait and see. This is precisely what threw me on this lead. The resemblances was just too strong with the three factions of the TC.--SidiLemine 13:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I hate to differ again, but when Yuki and Ryōko Asakura are fighting, I understood the conversation as revealing two factions among the humanoid interfaces, not in the DIE itself. (Incidentally, I can't help but see DIE as both an ominous acronym, and being an anagram for IDE, which has obvious anagrammatical resemblances as well as sharing a root word). Besides, the TC had at least 4 factions - the Stables, Volatiles, and Ultimates were only three of the more active factions: don't forget about the Reapers. What's the third or fourth factions among the interfaces (or DIE, if you please)? You only list two. --Gwern (contribs) 19:21 18 January 2007 (GMT)

rqimg
Could someone add the Haruhi-ism screencap to this page? (either the black H or red H - from the title or end credits - OP/ED)

132.205.93.88 21:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be unreasonable to simply add in the picture. Perhaps if there was a section on Haruhiism (since a search on that terms yeilds a redirect to this article), though there isn't really any reason to include a section on Haruhiism anyway.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 14:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

requested redirect
Can someone with an account make the redirect Haruhism point here? (It's a reasonable misspelling) 132.205.93.88 21:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 14:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

News on asosbrigade.com?
It's 22 December, 2:18 Central US Time, and the site now has a flash video and a MySpace link. Any clues yet to if this is really news about the North American release, or just some really elaborate fan site hoax?

The video has some live action actresses, with whoever playing Haruhi is in front of a Bandai banner. I'm still in the process of watching said video now... Evilfishytank 08:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC) UPDATE After watching said video, and reading the credits, I have now determined that: 1) My lame Nihon-go can't understand whatever Mikuru and Yuki said at the end, besides picking out "Bandai." 2) "This promotional video is copyright 2006 BANDAI ENTERTAINMENT INC. I can now reason that Bandai has some sort of hand in the release of Haruhiism in English/North America. I'm still waiting for details to come in before making any concrete edits to the article. Evilfishytank 08:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The invasion has begun! Grab your rifles, load your ammunition, and get ready for the beachhead landing at midnight! ;)


 * Well, now that we've confirmed that Bandai is licensing, we'll have to wait it out for updates...on asosbrigade or sos-dan? Will both have the same info soon?

Theodorel 08:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Macron usage
A lot of people have been adding an extra "u" in the word yūtsu, resulting in "yūutsu". I would like to point out that this form is incorrect: Wikipedia uses Revised Hepburn romanization, which renders "yuutsu" as "yūtsu". Please see the Japanese Manual of Style for more information. --Ppk01 12:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

But it's "Yuuutsu", not Yuutsu. Triple U's. Kurigiri 14:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Kurigiri is right. The two kanji used in the word Yuuutsu (憂鬱) are pronouced yuu for the first kanji and utsu for the second kanji. Via Revised Hepburn, the first kanji's romanization is turned into yū due to the double u on that kanji, but for the second kanji there's only one u and it must be kept for the word to be romanized correctly.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 15:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that. I retract my earlier statement. --Ppk01 18:13, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

ENOZ?
Why is there a new section on the fictional band ENOZ in this article? It seems more like fancruft to include it and it serves no real purpose for notibility in the entire series aside from one scene in episode 12. Can someone give some good reasons to include this?-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 08:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. If it had to be included somewhere at all then it would be on the characters article, not on this one. --Squilibob 08:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed the section and added it to List of characters relating to Haruhi Suzumiya; thus the ENOZ article was merged with that one as well.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 08:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Series Setting and Trivia
Will anyone object to moving the Series Setting or Trivia Sections onto their own headers? They seem more pertinent to the Melancholy as a whole rather than to the fact that it is an anime at all. The series setting seems a bit out of place, as well... Does is belong in the article, either? Mekryd 07:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The trivia section should only be a mention of the wiki in "See Also". About the setting, I'm not sure as I've never read the books or manga. Is it explicitly mentionned there? If not, it should remain in the anime section. If so, it should move out, possibly in the plot section.--SidiLemine 09:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Moving the trivia link to external links sounds like a good idea. As for the Setting: This article is specifically for the first novel and the Anime itself, so it wouldn't be out of place there.  I'm more thinking that it goes under trivia and should be removed if it's already in that external trivia link, though...Mekryd 18:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"The Organisation"
The English language has many synonyms, meaning that Japanese words can be translated into similar words. This is the case with "The Organisation". In Kingdom Hearts II, XIII機関 is translated as "Organisation XIII". In the Deep Dive concept video for KH2, it was "13th Order". My Japanese dictionary says "Institution". Here "Organisation" is used, but it says translations have used "Agency". I say, use "Agency" as it has been used before, and wait 'til the licensed version is out and see what they're using. - Zero1328 Talk? 12:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone has mentioned before though, that Kyon, in the books, I believe, that he had a conversation with Itsuki along the lines of: "Do you know of 'an Agency'?", "You mean like the Central Intelligence Agency?"... etc. Unless I'm just remembering things that didn't happen, then the book sets a standard that means that it, while not necessarily being "The Organization", is also not an "Agency". Mekryd 16:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like an anon mentioned that a couple months back, it's still on this talk page, at. I have a feeling that "Organisation" was used because KH2 used it, but all of them are valid translations, so it would be easier to use the word currently used most often to refer to them. The CIA reference in the books means that it was referred to as some sort of 'Agency', so it's the closest thing we have to an actual name. - Zero1328 Talk? 00:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Or just wait till the official English translations come out *groan*. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 00:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And what are we going to put there for the time being? That's why I brought this up. - Zero1328 Talk? 02:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you put anything other than Agency, you're going to have a hard time explaining why you're changing it back to Agency later on when you either read "Disappearance", or watch it in animated form (assuming they get around to animating it.) The CIA joke simply won't work if you use anything else. 150.101.121.216 12:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Introduction
Hey, the more I look at the intro, the more bulky and unwiedly it looks. Most of the stuff seems like it could be delegated to the Media section of the article, as well. We don't need to give full detail on release dates of every single bit of stuff, etc in the intro paragraph. We just need to acknowledge their existence, right? They can look in the exceptionally long infobox or in the media section to find out more.

Maybe it would look less tiresome to read if we found a slimmer picture for the infobox as well?Mekryd
 * But the lower the width of that picture becomes, the longer the infobox will grow, so if it is to change, the width should not, IMO. But I do agree with the issue about the lead being too cluttered.-- (  十   八  ) 01:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"Chronological" order
I wonder if we should be careful about use of "Chronological" order when referring to the novel's ordering of events. The reason I wonder is that it causes all sorts of pain once time travel enters the picture.150.101.121.216 08:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, but time travel barely even affects Melancholy. As far as I can remember, there was just that episode of future Asahina making a visit. Maybe everything rehappens in a later novel, but that's outside of this article's scope.--SeizureDog 05:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a second season in production, supposedly. It was supposed to air last next (Honestly, I typed last, and didn't realize. I'm not a time traveller.) year, but because of the popularity, they hastened the production so it should be released sometime in 2007. That might pose a problem for the chronological order, but we won't know till it airs, if it airs. But yes, from what I have heard, at least one of the light novels have a lot more time travelling, but I do not know the details. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we can fix that when and if it happens then. As it stands, trying to be overly technical on the order of events would probably serve to be more confusing to the average reader.--SeizureDog 06:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I second leaving it as is till it actually poses a problem as well. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 06:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a common misconception on how the chronological order works and why they did it that way. I dislike it when people say the correct viewing order is.....etc. The reason why they wanted made the anime this way is because quite simply there is not enough episodes to cover volume one. They also didn't want to jump right into volume two. Instead they just stuck mini episodes (that isnt integral to the plot) that occured in other volumes so that it would fit the 14 episode format. If you notice, the only thing that goes in the correct chronological order is the actual plotline up to the end of the first volume. If you notice, there is no advancement in plot in the chronological episodes following episode 14. I think once they get into the larger volumes (like 7 and 5), you probably wont see the discontinuity.

Similarities between episode 8 and Ace Attorney
It has been noticed that near the end of episode 8 (Lone Island Syndrome Part II), Haruhi made Phoenix Wright's (Ace Attorney) gestures. Can this be included on the page? 155.31.211.9 05:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the detail is rather minor for inclusion here. KyuuA4 00:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It was part of the 'Triva' section until it the entire section was replaced wit ha link to a fan wiki.Mekryd 15:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Gaza incident
Hi. Should the article note the Gaza incident and demonstration where Haruhi appeared?--GunnarRene 22:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm...can you provide some context about it? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I saw the AFP photo and honestly, I am surprised that is not a photoshop. The photo I saw was at (Japanese). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It probably doesn't deserve mention until it has reached Evil Bert fame...though I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese people pick this up and make a big deal about it. _dk 06:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone help me out here: why is Haruhi in that picture? The text says something about it being a protest against some kids that got shot in Gaza or something. It really does look like a photoshop though, and the text doesn't mention Haruhi at all. This site is reliable right?--SeizureDog 07:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd think Agence France-Presse is very reliable. Of course the article wouldn't mention Haruhi, it was translated into Japanese. Why was she there? ....Why do you suppose Bert appeared alongside Osama bin Laden in a pro-Taliban protest sign? No reason. _dk 08:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, does Haruhi have an Arabic speaking fanbase somehow? No Arabic Wiki article I notice.--SeizureDog 09:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * My buddies think it was photoshopped. While I trust the AFP; Reuters and other news organizations were caught using photoshoped photos during the Lebanon-Israeli War of 2006. I would not be surprised if this was shopped too. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say that's pretty likely. I mean, the rest of the board uses fingerpainting. And are computers (as I'm assuming that one would have to print the image off, if it's real) common in Gaza? I would assume they're rather rare.--SeizureDog 09:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) If so, what purpose does it serve for AFP to photoshop Haruhi on there? This makes no sense, unless they're trying to smear the anime....which also makes no sense. _dk 10:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe the original photographer had a strange sense of humor? Or maybe AFP steals images off the internet :O --SeizureDog 10:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)