Talk:The Mountaineers (opera)

Starting the article
I will eventually get it all in here. Just give me a little time to do the references and things. We'll figure out the rest later. Slfarrell (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good work, so far. I changed the word "retired", because after this, Helen continued to run the touring company until her death.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I found this ref that may be helpful from The Musical Times -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Plot summary entered. May need cleaning up for clarity and brevity. Slfarrell (talk) 14:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look later today. Looking forward to the refs throughout.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Photos and refs
I'm not putting the entire chapter from my book in there! LOL. Next entry will be critical response. I'm a little stumped for how to do photos, and some of the ones I have will not scan properly. What should I do? Slfarrell (talk) 14:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you e-mail the files to me, I'll upload them for you, although the Uploading images tutorial is fairly easy to understand. Probably two images are enough.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the quality of them - what I think is acceptable might be different in your eyes, so I'll send you several and you can pick the ones you like best. I have added the critical response, but I think it needs expansion. In our classic Swiss metaphor, "What do YOU think?" (That's a line from the opera!) The photos I have are from the newspaper. Now, newspaper copyright is 70 years, so it shouldn't be a problem, but I can't improve the originals in any way. Slfarrell (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No copyright problem for photos before 1923. Can you give a page number for your Times cite?  Was there a name or title of the article?  Was the author credited?  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It was page 11, Issue 39078, column C. Too detailed? [smiley] It is simply titled "Savoy Theatre." with no named author. At least not one that I can see. Do we need to credit the photos? I think they came from "The Sketch." Slfarrell (talk) 20:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Yes, we should add "Savoy Theatre" and the page number.  I'll do it.  Yes, I need the photo source and credit information.  Can you find out what date they were published in The Sketch?  Thanks! Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "The Sketch", Oct 6, pg. 397. Of course I kept all my research materials! Slfarrell (talk) 20:45, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * My research has not turned up any revivals, so I'm inclined to believe that there were none. How do you disprove that none occurred? Maybe it should be deleted. We can say it has been absent from the professional stage, that's easier to check than amateur performances, of which there may have been a few. We just don't know about 'em. Slfarrell (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

They only way to prove it is if Ganzl, for example, always listed revivals but there are none here? I wouldn't worry about it too much. If we can't reference it, the statement doesn't seem too controversial for now. We reference what we can. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:52, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Song list
What are the songs that are not numbered? Were they left out of the numbering system on purpose? Do the numbers follow the published score? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, they do not appear in the published score, but they are documented as having been performed. I have the lyrics of Workman's added song, but only the first verse. That's pretty much it, but I thought it relevant for inclusion. Slfarrell (talk) 20:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, but the numbers that you do have there: do these follow the published score, or are they just sequential? Oh, and the other numbers: where are they "documented" as having been performed? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I couldn't say if they follow the score. I don't have the whole thing. But the ones I entered are correct, based on the libretto's placement of songs. And based on what I do have in my folder. "The Era", Oct 23, quotes Workman's song, and gives the first line of Rose's song. They were first performed on Wednesday Oct 20. I checked my MS Works Calender and that confirms the date, as does "The Era." They are called "interpolated songs" in the other reviews. As for where they appear in the show, I couldn't say. We are just not given that information, but it is likely that it went into the second act. Rose's song probably replaced "I should like here to state" - they are almost the same song, I think. "Era" says the second act has taken the majority of the improvements, so I'm inclined to think this is where they appeared. Oh, and there isn't additional dialogue. It was completely rewritten in place of the old dialogue. Slfarrell (talk) 21:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure we understand one another. I'm asking about the *numbering* of the song list. I am guessing, from what you said, that you cannot confirm that the numbering of the song list matches the numbering exactly in the score? If we are not sure, we should use bullet points (see my change). However, if you know the number given to each song in the score (table of contents?), then we should give the songs in the list the exact numbers from the score, as we do with the various G&S operas. Let me know. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope, still don't follow. The songs appear in this order in the libretto; what I have of the vocal score seems to confirm this, and I've no reason to believe the order is different. The numbering is the same, but the added songs do not appear in that edition. That's why I left them out. Are we still concerned about their inclusion, or is that a different subject? I saw your changes, and the songs of the Finales are not separate - they are part of the finale. was that your question? Also I think we should take out the bit about the revival since we don't know if there were any. Until we learn of some, let's leave it out. I'll take it out. Slfarrell (talk) 14:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I was never concerned about their inclusion, I am only concerned with how we number and describe them. They should all be included, and as you see, I dropped a note to try to indicate that they were not in the published score. You say above, the "numbering is the same". Do you mean, it is the same as listed in the TOC of the vocal score? My question is about whether to number them in the list, or just to leave them all as bullet points. If you can reliably number them according to the published score, please go ahead, but don't use the # sign; instead say "No. 1" or "No. 2a" or whatever. Songs of the finales? Not sure what you mean - are you listing numbers WITHIN the finales? It's a little hard to understand these details without speaking in person, so please try to add notes that explain things to a reader that does not have the score. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I see where we are getting confused. Yes, it is the same as the table of contents. Do the other pages have them as numbers or as bullets? And yes, I listed songs within the finales, which do appear in the score as well as the libretto. Slfarrell (talk) 14:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, then please go ahead and fix the song list, using numbers like "No. 1" and "No. 2a", and clearly indicating which songs are part of the finales. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Slfarrell (talk) 14:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have received pages from Berkeley and they have the second edition of the score. I will be adding the new songs to the list when I get their titles and participants. The Entr'acte, which I just added, was just an omission from earlier. Slfarrell (talk) 23:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Connecting Fallen Fairies
I really think the information about FF should be removed. I think it clutters the article and pulls away from "Mountaineers". This information should be saved for the FF page. Slfarrell (talk) 14:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, it puts it into historical context, but I'll take out some of it if it bothers you. Give me a second. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Next steps
I have added the reference for "The Era" and the comic opera syndicate. Does this article need more or should we just add the photos and leave as it is? Slfarrell (talk) 16:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, it's a nice readable little article, and I have nominated it for DYK. If you have more background info - like how Eden and Somerville came to write it, and how they met Workman, by all means add it.  Shouldn't we be referencing your book?  That's a published source.  All the best.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have the conception of the opera, how it came about, but that's all I could find. Of course, I wanted to keep it separate from the article. Gotta give my readers a reason to buy the book, don't you know. I will come up with something. Slfarrell (talk) 19:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course, I gave in and the conception has been added. Is there aught more? Maybe one of us (probably me) should do a bio page of Claude Flemming. Look how many of these people don't have a Wiki page! Oh, Somerville doesn't give a date for when this idea occurred. It might not have been June 1908. I think we should leave it ambiguous. It doesn't affect much. Slfarrell (talk) 20:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Super! Was Somerville's train trip in 1908, or is the source vague?  Was Flemming a big star?  I think the two ladies that I have redlinked probably each deserve a page, but no rush.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Source is vague. He just says "some years earlier", nothing else. Flemming was known in London for many things, then his film career in the 20's and 30's. I've pressed David Stone to give him a bio, but he said "no". What I lack is decent photos of Flemming. Slfarrell (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

All right, I think we've got a fairly decent article here. Next month I'll put in TMM - it'll be a little more work because the opera is presently in pieces. It was hard enough to put it in my book. But that's another story. Let's keep our fingers crossed for a DYK mention. Thanks for that, I was going to suggest it. Slfarrell (talk) 20:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Claude Flemming and others
In an effort to remedy the lack of familiar and clickable names on the page, I did a little more searching for Mr Flemming on the Internets. In addition to his mini-bio in my book, I found several little tidbits of info as well as a photograph or two. We might be able to cobble something together, however small, but I shall do nothing further about it until you return. I will need some assistance in putting it all together legally and correctly. Later, we may want to make a couple pages for the others. Maybe. Slfarrell (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Unsuccessful?
One of the tidbits that Tim Riley found, and that I cited, says that there was an agreement to rehearse and present Fallen Fairies before Christmas, and so The Mountaineers had to be withdrawn. Perhaps it was too hasty to say that The Mountaineers was a failure? Another of Tim's tidbits is about a South American production. So, the piece had at least two tours. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

A new photo
I found this:

http://www.sheetmusicwarehouse.co.uk/details.php?ref=66376

There was an arrangement of selections from the opera for piano, and it had this beautifully illustrated cover. Can we use it in the article? It's certainly better than any of the pictures in MY possession. Slfarrell (talk) 21:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Is it under copyright? If so, you'd need to request permission (click here) from the copyright holder, to be sent to permissions-en@wikimedia.org.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I have no idea. It was printed in 1909 or 1910, so it was definitely published before 1923. But... don't know, lol. Slfarrell (talk) 21:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see: The Music Lovers Library No. 55 – The Mountaineers, piano-vocal selections, Composer Reginald Somerville, Publisher: Ascherberg, Hopwood & Crew Ltd., London, 1909.


 * I can't figure out how to capture the image. If you e-mail it to me, I'll upload it to Wikipedia.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

As if the madness would never stop... http://www.amazon.com/MOUNTAINEERS-OPERA-SAVOY-THEATRE-ALBION/dp/B005B7Q3SK Two more photos - entirely new to me! - may be found here. There's a publication date and (oh joy!) the articlol can even be bought online. Maybe we can use its contents? Slfarrell (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Legend of the Edelweiss
I now possess an MP3 of the famous song from the opera. I've seen on some Wiki pages that a sound file can be included. Do you think its inclusion here would be of benefit to the page? -scottlfarrell 2602:306:CCA7:D190:7965:430D:FF62:B8FF (talk) 02:42, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure, as long as the recording is free of copyright. I have no idea how to make a sound file for Wikipedia, but if you can figure it out, go ahead.  Otherwise, just list it as an External link.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it's out of copyright since it was my group's performance of the song. I don't know how to make sound files either, nor how to post them for external links. I just recently diskivered I can do this. Will try to find help. Slfarrell (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * UPDATE. Not gonna happen. My file is a WMA sound file, which is not supported on the Wiki's system. It's not that important. Slfarrell (talk) 20:14, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * User:Adam Cuerden might be able to help you convert and add the file if you contact him. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Aye, just e-mail me. I'll get it. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I have put it in and we'll see if anything happens. Thanks Adam! Slfarrell (talk) 22:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Radio Times listings
After all this time, I've located something my research missed back in 2009. The opera was broadcast twice in 1924 over wireless radio, and were listed in the programmes published in the Radio Times. I have long since forgotten how to do this editing thing on Wikipedia, so this is what I'm looking at. genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/page/39d741241887430d9f757201b99c80e3 Also genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/page/d1e12344a00949c9af5032ee62936c1a Look how detailed that is! Even gives us a cast list. They clearly performed the second edition of the opera, evidenced by the quintette of act two, and the waltz song of act three. A significant find! Slfarrell (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Slfarrell, would you please give me the exact text that you think ought to be added regarding each broadcast? -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)