Talk:The Night Gwen Stacy Died/Archive 1

Merger
I don't suggest that ALL of the Gwen Stacy article should be moved here, but I think the section regarding her death, the controversy that surrounded it, and the impact on the comics industry should be split off. The two articles contain a lot of duplicate information... but the issue itself is considered a defining moment of the Bronze Age of comics and probably deserves its own page. -- HKMARKS 23:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I feel it should be merged in the opposite direction. --Chris Griswold 06:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Kraven's Last Hunt, The Death of Jean DeWolff, Spider-Man: The Other, The Death of Superman, A Death in the Family etc., and many other major storylines all have their own pages. Gwen Stacy's page should be more biographical; too much emphasis is on her death and too little on the character.  Also, The Night Gwen Stacy Died contains information specific to the issue that definitely doesn't belong on the Gwen Stacy page.  -- HKMARKS 01:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge The Night Gwen Stacy Died into Gwen Stacy. "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" doesn't have the formalization of being a TPB separated story, it's basically two issues of a comic (and as far as I recall didn't have the 'title' as this article does). I agree it's a far more important story in Spider-Man history that, well, arguably any other, but that just means a detailed description of the events, significance and effects would nicely enhance any main Gwen Stacy article -Markeer 16:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The story was collected into a TPB, called "The Death of Gwen Stacy" (probably a better name for the article). (It's also included in the "Spider-Man vs. the Green Goblin" TPB).  "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" was ASM #121, and "The Goblin's Last Stand" was #122.  (The Death of Captain Stacy is also in TPB.)
 * I'm not 100% married to either direction. If "NGSD" is merged into "GS" or isn't, GS needs a pretty big reorganization.  -- HKMARKS 17:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm in if you are, Helen. --Chris Griswold 20:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Gwen's death is obviously part of her biography, and since we don't actually live in the Marvel Universe, the real-life impact of a character is just as important as her biographical info. Redxiv 23:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Much of the detail about this storyline should instead be moved from the Gwen Stacy article to here.  Considering how this story also deals with the death of the Green Goblin, and especially how it has been retold in other media with Mary Jane substituted, the story is larger than just the character and so cannot be contained as a mere subtopic of the Stacy article.  Postdlf 23:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Gwen Stacy is her own chracter and there is a lot that surrounds her and her life in general throughout various incarnations. With the Spider Man 3 movie on it's way, this page is going to get a lot more hits, and it's going to be a shame if the first thing fans see is, in bold letters at the top of the page, "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". Huge spoiler, and will stink for new fans. AntiCruise 14:27, 1 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Good point. --Chris Griswold 22:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have 3 options going: Please be specific. HKMARKS 23:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Put it all in 'Gwen Stacy'.
 * 2) Leave it as is.
 * 3) Leave some in 'Gwen Stacy' (ie "she died, it was tragic and controversial, more at "NGSD") but move parts *specifically* related the Plot, Controversy, Aftermath, and Tributes, retellings, cover image, etc. to 'NGSD'.
 * I'm for #3 HKMARKS 23:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Me too; it makes the most editorial sense. Postdlf 23:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm for #3 as well. Give Gwen her own page, but keep everything about her death in one place. --InShaneee 00:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Put it all in Gwen Stacy --Chris Griswold 01:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That would make the article pretty gi-normous. --InShaneee 01:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

After 5 days with no comments, I'd say this is a clear No merge. CovenantD 05:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have separated it out as described in option 3, and expanded the Gwen Stacy bit a little to give a short overview of the story and why it was controversial. - HKMARKS 00:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Death threats against creators
I remember reading several years ago that the Marvel offices recieved death threats after killing Gwen. (And that naturally, being only human, they forwarded them to police.) But I cannot remember where I read this. Does anyone know, or know of another source for that information? I probably read it in a TPB collection released in the 1990s. - HKMARKS 00:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The NIGHT Gwen Stacy Died?
Why is the story called the NIGHT Gwen Stacy died when it wasn't dark outside? (Or was it dark outside?) UnDeRsCoRe 02:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's one of life's great mysteries. In the scene where Norman goes nutty and decides to kill Gwen, the sky is black.  However, for the rest of the story (before and after that) it's blue -- but sometimes a darkish blue.  Maybe it was a summer evening?  Maybe "night" just sounded better than "day?" -- HKMarks TALK CONTRIBS  02:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And another thing, why is it that Gwen is seen dead in her green trenchcoat, but then on the cover of 122, she wearing a pink one? Is this another inconsistency, or am I just color blind? UnDeRsCoRe 17:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No big mystery there -- the cover was probably coloured by someone other than the person who coloured the interior. (And drawn by John Romita, while the interior was drawn by Gil Kane.)  The interior art is consistent, though.  Colouring used to be done in a rather piecemeal way.  The colorist sketched out the colours in marker, then -- as I understand it -- a room full of little old ladies cut out Zip-A-Tone and pasted it to get it ready for photography.  Eventually the room full of old ladies were replaced by computers, so in the early days of computer colouring the colorist and "separations" were credited separately.  Then someone noticed they could combine the two and save some time.  (But I digress...)
 * Errors like that are not uncommon -- Blood Spider had two completely different costumes entirely due to the colouring. -- HKMarks TALK CONTRIBS 18:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

When is someone going to point out that shocks from falls do not kill people? --141.225.77.194 21:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Another source of confusion
In the prose novel Goblin's Revenge by Dean Wesley Smith, the Chameleon posing as the Green Goblin also kidnaps MJ Watson and takes her to the top of the Brooklyn Bridge.

Enda80 12:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)Enda80

Did Gwen really die at the bridge?
Gwen is not shown awake or for that matter breathing after we see the Goblin approach her in Peter's appartment. For all we know, she was already dead when Spider-Man arrived at the bridge, and the whole event was just a ruse to get Spider-Man to surrender himself. It may not have been the creators' intention, but there's no reason it can't be interpreted that way (particularly in light of recent retcons). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MultipleTom (talk • contribs) 15:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

I don't buy the "shock of the fall" theory. Impacts kill people, not falls. If she had a pre-existing heart condition, the realization she was falling to her death (if she was conscious) could have caused a fatal heart attack. But I don't believe there was any pre-existing medical condition. That leaves the Goblin killed her before the fall, or Spider-Man accidentally killed her.

And wasn't there a story set in "the bar with no name", where Osborne tells a bunch of other Spider-Man villians that he did kill Gwen? --Mightyfastpig 22:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"Replays" redundancy?
I was reading this article and noticed that there seems to be a redundancy in the "Replays" section. It says how Mary Jane fell from a building, and Spider Man, learning from his mistakes with Gwen, caught her with multiple strands of web, rather than just one. And then after that, it tells a shorter, but identical story, only citing it being from a different book. I'm not familiar with the Spider Man stories at all, so I can't tell if it's simply an error, and the same occurance was mentioned twice or not. If they are, in fact, different occurances, perhaps someone should make that more clear, so it's not as confusing. CherryFlavoredAntacid 03:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It's been fixed, so nevermind this. CherryFlavoredAntacid 00:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Asm121.jpg
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Misogyny
Do we really need this section? A lot of it, from what I gathered, seems to be more directed towards the trend of female deaths in comics and less to do with Gwen's death being a case of misogyny. If no one has any problems, I'll remove it later. And the section title in itself is dubious as well, mainly because section later states that it hasn't been called as such.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It does seem problematic that all the sources are from Women in Refrigerators. I think a mention is certainly warranted, but not necessarily a whole section. A  ni  Mate  19:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll remove the section but include the gist elsewhere in the article.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would fit nicely in the "Why Gwen?" section. A  ni  Mate  19:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'll move it to there. Thanks.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I really don't know where it'd fit in that section as most of it appears to be an in-universe plot summary of what went on in the comics.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I recently expanded the section, reasoning that if we were going to have a separate section for this, it needed a better explanation. It's a tricky proposition, though. Women in Refrigerators never explicitly calls the trend "sexist", much less "misogynistic". Certainly, those terms come in the discussions about the trend, but the point of the list was to foster discussion, not to label and condemn each instance as clearly wrong. So, it's debatable whether WiR can be construed as calling Gwen Stacy's death an example of "misogyny". As such, I have no problem with the elimination of the section. Then again, I merely expanded the section, I didn't create it. So, there's probably at least one person who feels differently.

I do think that the refs help to show the notability of the subject, so I'm glad that at least one ref to Women in Refrigerators was preserved. I've also added back the ref from the Comic Buyers' Guide which refers to "Gwen Stacy Syndrome". --GentlemanGhost (talk) 19:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone remembers something like this?
I barely remember a comic book issue with a character, who can shape himself with various superpowers with their looks(i rememeber that he thought that his child died because of spiderman, i can remember his child jumping from a building acting like spidey, and i think i remember he was like obsessed with a number if you can say so, i think it was 300 but not sure), so, i remember him entering a building with a bomb disguised as a woman and goes to the roof of the building, when spider-man comes there he drops the bomb down the building, and spidey tries to catch the bomb just like he tries to catch gwen, but since the bomb was programmed to explode so when it was stopped like this, it explodes or something like this.. if i find the comic, i will give more info and such.. Cemreserpal (talk) 22:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed section
I removed this entirely uncited section from the article. Unlike the "Why Gwen?" section, this one might have merit, depending upon whether the information within the section can be fully cited. Without it, it cannot return to the article.


 * Different versions of the "bridge scene"
 * The "bridge scene", in which the Green Goblin hurls Gwen Stacy to her death, has remained one of the most iconic scenes in Marvel Comics and has been redone several times. Striking is the fact that in many re-imaginings, Mary Jane Watson &mdash; Spidey's future wife &mdash; plays the role of the victim, and in contrast to Gwen, always survives.
 * Gwen's death has been repeatedly revisited by many writers and artists:
 * In Paul Jenkins' Peter Parker: Spider-Man - A Day in the Life, The Chameleon commits suicide in a grim recreation of the sequence: After tricking Spider-Man to the bridge where Gwen Stacy died, on the pretext of having kidnapped Mary Jane Watson Parker, he declared his own loneliness and love for Peter. When Peter laughed out of surprise, he threw himself off the bridge.
 * Marvels #4: Gwen's death is seen from the point of view of the protagonist, Phil Sheldon, a photographer. He had been researching Spider-Man's involvement in Gwen's father's death, and had become quite close to Gwen herself. Her death disillusioned him and prompted him to retire.
 * Spectacular Spider-Man: In Spectacular Spider-Man #200, Harry Osborn, losing his sanity as the Green Goblin, takes Mary Jane to the top of the bridge where Gwen died. The bridge is not named, but the Brooklyn Bridge is depicted.
 * Web of Spider-Man: In Web of Spider-Man #125, the fourth Green Goblin (Phil Urich) places the Gwen Stacy clone, Gwen Miles, on the top of the George Washington Bridge after her husband crashes their car into the Hudson River; she accidentally falls off the bridge, but is saved by Spider-Man.
 * Spider-Man: In the film, Spider-Man's webs are often much more elastic, like a bungee cord, behaving like a shock absorber. Mary Jane Watson (assuming the "role" of Gwen Stacy) is thrown off the Queensboro Bridge by the Green Goblin. The situation is especially tricky, as the Goblin also sends a cable car loaded with passengers falling to the ground at the same time. Spider-Man manages to save both by first catching Mary Jane in his arms, and then catching hold of the car's cable, before webbing the bridge to anchor himself. Also, Spider-Man then follows the Green Goblin, aka Norman Osborn, to an abandoned building on Roosevelt Island when he then fights him (unlike in the comic where he fights the Goblin before he throws Gwen off the bridge). This fight ends in much the same way as the original, with Goblin accidentally impaling himself with his glider.
 * Spider-Man: India: With Meera Jain (the Indian counter-part of Mary-Jane) in the role as the victim. However, this version of the bridge scene has much more magical look-and-feel to it.
 * Due to rules imposed by Fox Kids' Standards & Practices department, no characters could be killed on Spider-Man: The Animated Series. Writers excluded Gwen from the series as they felt they could not use a character who was destined to die. In the episode "Turning Point", Mary Jane fulfilled Gwen's role, but she and the Goblin fell into a portal to the Negative Zone. Due to the series' cancellation, they never returned (aside for a brief mention by Madame Web at the end of the series' finale episode) although the creators had intended to bring her back in the never-made sixth season. Like Gwen Stacy in the comics, a clone of Mary Jane appears in the fifth season. In spite of the rule against death that kept Gwen out of the show in the first place and caused Mary Jane to fall into a portal instead of falling to her death, Mary Jane's clone actually dies. In the comics, the clone of Gwen Stacy lived although the original died.
 * In The Amazing Spider-Man #513, Gwen's daughter, Sarah, after being shot by police, falls off the Brooklyn Bridge, and Spider-Man swings down to save her, reflecting how he wished he could have saved Gwen if he had just one more chance at it all those years ago.
 * In Ultimate Spider-Man, the Goblin attempts to kill Mary Jane. In an attempt to save her, Peter shoots webbing to her legs. She doesn't die because Spider-Man jumps after Mary Jane and attempts to match the speed of Mary Jane's descent to his before he shoots the webbing, which had some elasticity to it. However the violent deceleration causes her to pass out. MJ survives, but suffers from deep trauma after that. Gwen herself dies in a completely different way: she is killed by the Carnage creature.
 * In Earth X, there is a scene in which Gwen pushes Norman from a great height, although it is only an illusion. Later, when the Skull kills Norman Osborn, the scene is reminiscent of Gwen's fall.
 * In Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane #10, Liz Allen references the scene by telling Mary Jane "Bet you'd love to bump her off a bridge."
 * In Spider-Man 3, a different scene is done without a bridge where Parker swoops down and fights his way through falling rubble to save Gwen and they later begin dating for a brief amount of time.
 * In the Marvel Knights: Spider-Man saga, The Last Stand, Peter saves Mary Jane from falling of the George Washington Bridge because of the kickback from her handgun. Spider-Man's rescue worked this time since he supported all of her major joints (elbows, knees, etc.) with multiple weblines so that she wouldn't suffer the same fate as Gwen. Here Spider-Man explained that he replayed Gwen's death in his mind over and over again, allowing him to come up with a correct, non-lethal way to save her. Writer Mark Millar makes a distinction between the bridges here, as the Green Goblin tells Spider-Man he chose a different bridge (the George Washington Bridge) to kill Mary Jane. The story arc concludes with Peter taking Aunt May to the Brooklyn Bridge, remembering Gwen's death.
 * The scene is also parodied by DC Comics in Superman/Batman #22, when the girlfriend of a hero named Bug, obviously based on Spider-Man, is thrown off a bridge before being saved by Superman, who comments on his wife being in the same situation frequently, a reference to Lois' role as a damsel in distress.}}

- Jack Sebastian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:56, 15 May 2010 (UTC).

"Packing for a trip"
I've removed the following bit:
 * "According to the book Stan Lee's Amazing Marvel Universe, Roy Thomas and John Romita were said to have decided to kill off Gwen Stacey after deciding she would be the perfect decision to shock readers. The two started off thinking that they would kill off any major character, but decided it should be a woman. At the time, Mary Jane was only one of Peter's friends and Aunt May's death wouldn't come as too much of a surprise due to "frequent heart attacks". Lee himself agreed because he was "busy packing for a trip" and "just wanted them out of his office", and when he returned he began asking why they killed Gwen."

It had a citation tag dating back to July of 2011, and the info makes Lee (and the other people responsible for Spidey) look like buffoons. It's a pretty bold claim, so it requires equally solid citation from a reliable, notable source. Without it, I am afraid it cannot return to the article. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:34, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

A fall from that height would kill anyone — before they struck the ground!
Skydivers fall from even greater heights all the time and survive. It's the impact, not the distance.173.58.96.84 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Spoilers
Seeing as how Amazing Spider-Man 2 hasn't even premiered in American movie theaters yet, should the fact that Gwen dies in the new movie really be listed on this page? I found out now and had the moment spoiled for me. I'm going to remove it for now, but post the text here so that it can be added back in 24 to 48 hours. Does this sound good?

In the The Amazing Spider-Man 2, Gwen (as played by Emma Stone) dies in a similar manner. Harry Osborn (as the Green Goblin) kidnaps Gwen after piecing together that Peter is Spider-Man. He drops Gwen into a clock tower where Spider-Man saves her. She falls again and Spider-Man manages to catch her with a webline. While holding onto the line, Harry attacks Spider-Man. The webline becomes snagged in the cogs of the tower and snaps just after Spider-Man subdues Harry. Gwen falls to the ground and Spider-Man snags her just as she hits the floor. It is left ambiguous whether the webline causes her neck to snap as it did in the comics, or the impact of hitting the ground kills her and the webline simply reached her at the same second as she struck the bottom. In a rough cut of the movie, her death is different, with the Green Goblin merely snapping her neck in front of Peter. This act also prompts Peter to brutally beat Harry, an addition not seen in the final cut. As homage to her comic death, the clock reads 1:21 am.

-- Tom H12 (talk) 17:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Snap removed?
According to comics scholar Brian Cronin at Comic Book Legends Revealed, there's no evidence that Marvel ever removed the snap sound effect. See this article. Should we edit the existing sentence to acknowledge that it's just a legend, or delete it all together? Aristophanes 68  (talk)  19:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)