Talk:The Notorious B.I.G./Archive 4

Problem with two different date formats used in footnotes
There are two different date formats used in the footnotes. e.g. "Convicted Killer Confesses to Shooting West Coast Rapper Tupac Shakur". The Baltimore Sun. July 13, 2012. Retrieved 2012-08-21.

This is confusing to the reader and makes the reading of the footnotes difficult. Since the topic is an American one, I suggest the format used to date the source, e.g. July 13, 2012, be used for the "Retrieved" dates also e.g. "Retrieved August 8, 2012." instead of "2012-08-21" so the reader doesn't have to shift sets when looking at the two dates. Thanks, MathewTownsend (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree, and had put both the published and retrieved dates to MM-DD-YYYY format, only to have it reverted. Perhaps Gimmetoo can shed some light on this, as they were the one who insisted the two differing formats were appropriate via WP policy.--Chimino (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The form that was here is one of those shown in MOSDATE as acceptable. I find the format suggested by MathewTownsend to he confusing, as it makes the accessdate and publication date more difficult to distinguish, as well as makes them blend with the rest of the citation. But if it will make people happy, I would not be opposed to using yyyy-mm-dd format for both publication and access date. Gimmetoo (talk) 01:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with Chimino. It is an American subject and the sources used in the article use the MM-DD-YYYY format. Plus the article itself uses the MM-DD-YYYY format, so all dates used in the article and citations would be consistently formated if the retrieval date complied. This is easier for people like me rather than the jarring use of two formats, the retrieval date not following the format in the article and the sources, being all numbers and in a difference sequence. MathewTownsend (talk) 12:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article follows a consistent style explicitly authorized by MOSNUM. Per the same guideline, that it is an American subject does not prevent the use of yyyy-mm-dd format, so that part of your argument is without merit. The format currently in the article is also easier for readers like me rather than the confusing format you advocate. Gimmetoo (talk) 13:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * All other dates in the article follow the format you say you find confusing, Gimmetoo. Do you have difficulty reading the dates in the article and in the citations? (Only the retrieval dates are in a format you don't find confusing.)

Per WP:MOSNUM, the use of dates should be consistent.
 * "Where this manual provides options, consistency should be maintained within an article unless there is a good reason to do otherwise."
 * Your reverting of others on the date format issue appears to be your personal preference rather than the goal of consistency. MathewTownsend (talk) 15:22, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Per the guideline your arguments are out of order. The article is consistent, per the guideline. It uses a style explicitly authorized by the guideline, and the guideline explicitly says "YYYY-MM-DD format may be used in references or in tables, even in articles with national ties, if otherwise acceptable." You appear to be pushing your own personal preference contrary to the unambiguous wording of the guideline, on an article you never edited before. Gimmetoo (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the guideline doesn't recommend a mixture of date formats in a single article, nor does it recommend an inconsistent date format style, mixing British and American date formats. MathewTownsend (talk) 18:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The guideline explicilty authorizes the format used in this article. Do you accept the guideline, or not? Gimmetoo (talk) 18:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Does the guideline explicitly authorize a mixture of British and American date formats? Does it explicitly authorize inconsistency in date format? MathewTownsend (talk) 20:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what "a mixture of British and American" date formats has to do with anything here. As far as I know, there are no dates formed like "1 January 2013" here. The guideline does explicitly authorise the style used in this article and in the references. Do you accept the guideline, or not? Gimmetoo (talk) 20:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

To tell you the truth, I've been reading through all the guidelines, and I don't think they're clear. "1 January 2013" is not an American format but British; January 1, 2013 is American. Since the dates in the citations use the American format (as they are mostly American sources), consistency would dictate that the retrieval date would follow the same format. But while the guidelines give lip service to "consistency", they don't seem to address the specific issue we are discussing. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Access and archive dates in references should all have the same format – either the format used for publication dates, or YYYY-MM-DD." and "YYYY-MM-DD format may be used in references or in tables, even in articles with national ties, if otherwise acceptable." Gimmetoo (talk) 01:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The murder and investigation: "rare 9mm Gecko ammunition"?
"In April [2011], the FBI released redacted documents about their investigation into the shooting, revealing that the bullets were rare 9mm Gecko ammunition manufactured in Germany."

Although this detail is of significance to investigating the murder, this statement strikes me as highly misleading as to the significance of the information.

The first issue is the way the ammunition is described: when describing a particular chambering, the conventional way to do so is first by stating the caliber (in US or metric terms), and then stating the chambering name. For example: "9mm Mauser Export". "9mm Gecko" is not a unique chambering: everything I can find suggests that these are 9mm Parabellum ammunition. "9mm" almost always means "9mm Parabellum" as it is perhaps the most common centerfire pistol-chambering in the world today. This "9mm Gecko" seems to merely mean "9mm Parabellum round, manufactured by GECO (Gustav Genschow & Co)".

That would be a notable piece of evidence for an investigator, but is not anything sensational in general. The way this information would be to state that Biggie was shot with "9mm Parabellum rounds manufactured by Gustav Genschow & Co, or 'GECO', in Germany.". The name "Gecko" seems to be a mistake, perhaps on the part of the FBI.

According to a few folks I have asked and a check of the top google searches, GECO does have a reputation for high product-quality. This might be unusual for city police, as I expect most criminals use low-cost and low-quality ammunition... both because such rounds cost less and because they would be harder to connect to a particular sale. To kill a hip-hop giant though, an assassin might select a quality round instead. I have not read anything particularly remarkable about the rounds though: some sources claim that they were "armor piercing", but that is subjective. If they were true AP rounds, he might actually have survived as such hard bullets (designed entirely for piercing plate) do not rip-up and wreck soft-tissue nearly as well. It seems to me that the thug who killed Biggie used a normal 9mm handgun, loaded with a premium brand of ammunition in order to reduce his chance of failure. This is an investigative dead-end.

That said, any suggestions as to how this could be re-written? Bearing in mind that this is an open murder investigation and that should reduce the license we use in describing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luftschiffritter5 1 (talk • contribs) 22:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

At page 19: "ATF Agent [censored], an ammunition expert, stated the bullets that killed BIGGIE is called Gecko Ammunition and manufactured in Germany. The only two (2) distributors of this ammunition in the entire US, is [cencored] in Corona, California; telephone number [censored], and [censored] in Cluster, New Jersey, telephone number [censored]. It is unclear whether the 9mm Gecko ammunition has ever been compared to some of the 9mm ammunition found [censored], that is believed to also be Gecko ammunition." So yes, it's very well possible that "Gecko" is an informal term referring to the company GECO / Gustav Genschow & Co, a German manufacturer of bullets. They didn't state the name of the cartridges the bullets were in, probably because they didn't knew? Cheers, theFace 14:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting comment. The original FBI report, which can be found here, states this at page 12: "Ballistic examination of the shell casings revealed the weapon used was a 9mm and the brand of ammunition was made by Gecko. Gecko is a metal piercing round made in Europe and rarely found in the U.S."

Typographical Error
The brand of ammunition listed in the "Murder Case" section of the article should be GECO (Genschow and Company, a sub-brand of Dynamit Nobel/RUAG and a manufacturer of a wide range of ammunition) not Gecko (a small lizard that sticks to walls). I expect that someone read a machine transcript of the source TV program resulting in the homophone substitution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.168.173.156 (talk • contribs) at 05:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Nevermind. Missed the entry on the same subject directly above this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.168.173.156 (talk • contribs) at 05:12, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Several issues
There are several issues with the article:


 * "He was also known as Biggie Smalls (or simply Biggie) (after a character in the 1975 film Let's Do It Again), Big, Big Poppa, and as Frank White (after the main character of the 1990 film King of New York)." - excess bolded.
 * I did not see excess bolding in the article. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not in the article. What I'm trying to say is that "after a character in the 1975 film Let's Do It Again" and "after the main character of the 1990 film King of New York" need to be removed from the lead. 192.210.135.154 (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done; I moved this information to the article body. (Related to aliases, I'm not sure all three of "Biggie Smalls", "Biggie" and "Big" need to be listed, but I left these as they are for now.) – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * "Born in St. Mary's Hospital on May 21, 1972, Wallace grew up in the Clinton Hill section of Brooklyn, New York City on 226 St. James Place[10] near the border of Bedford-Stuyvesant.[11]" - better source: The Notorious B.I.G.: A Biography (Greenwood Biographies) (2007) by Holly Lang, pp. 2-3
 * Yes check.svg Done; this source specifically states this, whereas other AP source only states Wallace "claimed the Bedford-Stuyvesant area as home". – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * "Ultimately, the film grossed over $43,000,000 worldwide." - 43 needs to changed to 44 and a source needs to be added (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=notorious08.htm)
 * Yes check.svg Done &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * "He was the only child of Voletta Wallace, a Jamaican preschool teacher, and George Latore, a welder and small-time Jamaican politician.[12]" - better source: The Notorious B.I.G.: A Biography (Greenwood Biographies) (2007) by Holly Lang, p. 1
 * Yes check.svg Done; I added this as a source. – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * "In July 1994, he appeared alongside LL Cool J and Busta Rhymes on a remix to label mate Craig Mack's "Flava in Ya Ear", reaching No. 9 on the Hot 100." - source: http://www.billboard.com/artist/299724/craig+mack/chart
 * Yes check.svg Done – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Life After Death is listed twice in the discography section. It needs to be removed from the posthumous albums listing.
 * Yes check.svg Done &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done (again); although the album was released posthumously, it was recorded entirely before his death, unlike the other posthumous albums, which makes it seem like it fits better there. In any case, I don't see the point of listing it twice. – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * "Four days later, Wallace had his first pop chart success as a solo artist with double A-side, "Juicy/Unbelievable", which reached No. 27 as the lead single to his debut album." - source: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/the-notorious-big-mn0000892827/awards
 * Yes check.svg Done – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

192.210.135.154 (talk) 22:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have responded to parts of your request; see above. I am leaving this edit request open for others to decide on whether the remaining portions of this request are appropriate. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * "The Notorious B.I.G's children C.J and Ty'anna are set to star in a animated series called "House of Wallace". [78]" - excessive space before the ref tag. 192.210.135.154 (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:CHECKLINKS needs to be run. 192.210.135.154 (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Editors of About.com ranked him No. 5 on their list of the Top 50 MCs of Our Time (1987–2007).[7] In 2012, The Source ranked him No. 3 on their list of the Top 50 (Rap) Lyricists of All Time.[8]" - needs to be moved to the Legacy section. 192.210.135.154 (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done (all three); I moved/merged the MTV rank to the Legacy section as well. – 296.x (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Featured article?
I don't think the article meets the WP:FA criteria anymore. There are major issues with sourcing. 192.210.135.154 (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Anything in particular? It went through another (somewhat) review when it ran on the front page this past December.--Chimino (talk) 05:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Merge first two s?
The first two s are basically the same. Maybe make the first a named ref and link to that footnote instead of the second ref. --82.170.113.123 (talk) 18:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2014
Please change Wallace described his debut as "a big pie, with each slice indicating a different point in my life involving bitches and niggaz... from the beginning to the end" to Wallace described his debut as "a big pie, with each slice indicating a different point in [his] life involving bitches and niggaz... from the beginning to the end"

92.28.65.205 (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: Shouldn't it be, "a big pie, with each slice indicating a different point in my [his] life involving bitches and niggaz... from the beginning to the end"? — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 16:11, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Mo Money Mo Problems and Mase?
The article is about Biggie Smalls and yet Mo Money Mo problems has nothing but Mase rapping? Someone needs to remove that audio or replace it with Biggie rapping. Would I go to a george washington article to read a benjamin franklin letter? The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).
 * Information.svg Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
 * Seriously, you can change it yourself. If you need any help, leave me a message.  Λυδ α  cιτγ  14:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Split
I should probably explain this edit here. This page was longer than ideal, and covers Wallace's death extensively rahter than in summary. By splitting this page into Death of The Notorious B.I.G., we can shorten it by 20,000 bytes.

I noticed that the previous content of that page was written in a nice summary style, so I just copied and pasted it here. Λυδ α  cιτγ  09:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2015
Hi there is a mistake involving the car accident. It took place on September 16th 1996 not in 1997. 'Change the bold text section to 1996: More arrests, Tupac Shakur's death, Car Accident and second child. And change the bold text section to 1997: Life After Death 'Til Death Do Us Part. After [49] Start a new paragraph and add

On September 16th 1996 3 Days after Shakur had died Wallace was involved in a car accident that shattered his left leg and temporarily confined him to a wheelchair.[3] The injury forced him to use a cane.[36] He and Lil' Cease were arrested for smoking marijuana in public and had their car repossessed. Wallace chose a Chevrolet Lumina rental SUV as a substitute, despite Lil' Cease's objections. The vehicle had brake problems before the accident but Wallace dismissed them.[52] According to Lil' Cease, Wallace's leg was shattered when they hit a rail along with Lil's Cease's jaw. Wallace spent months in a hospital following the accident and had to complete therapy. Despite his hospitalization, he continued to work on the album. The accident was referred to in the lyrics of "Long Kiss Goodnight": "Ya still tickle me, I used to be as strong as Ripple be / Til Lil' Cease crippled me."[53]

Aaron106 (talk) 23:57, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mlpearc  ( open channel ) 00:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2015
I wish to add information regarding Biggie Smalls impact as being street smart and book smart. Meaning that he knew how to act on the streets with his people/being able to talk slang and smooth, as well as be smart in class. He did not try very hard however, which is what led to him learning to deal with the streets. I wish to add this quote I found which includes a phrase stating "The Notorious B.I.G. grew up in Brooklyn, spending much of his youth on the street as a small-time drug dealer and aspiring rapper who quickly became known for his smooth, swinging delivery and sharp wit." This phrase shows how B.I.G was creative on the mic and also shows how as a kid; he had to live and struggle on the streets to provide for himself or family. Basically stating, he was forced into the lifestyle.

Cmedhurst (talk) 06:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".

Frank White explanation has been removed, makes this part cryptic
The section of the article titled: "1995: Junior M.A.F.I.A., Conspiracy and coastal feud," has this sentence:
 * In July 1995, he appeared on the cover of The Source with the caption "The King of New York Takes Over", a reference to his Frank White alias from the 1990 film King of New York.

However, nowhere in the article does it explain what BIG's "Frank White alias" is. This may be due to earlier corrections. In the Talk section titled "Several Issues" it indicates that the part in bold was removed from the lead and transferred to the main body of the article:
 * "He was also known as Biggie Smalls (or simply Biggie) (after a character in the 1975 film Let's Do It Again), Big, Big Poppa, and as Frank White (after the main character of the 1990 film King of New York)."

However, it appears that this reference is now gone, wherever it was moved to. So, it makes no sense. When you click on the link to the film the King of New York, it shows the Christopher Walken played the role of Frank White. Some explanation is needed. Ileanadu (talk) 04:00, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 december 2015
It's a complete detail, but can someone change "Wallace is consistently ranked as one of the greatest rappers ever and one of the most influential rappers of all time" to "Wallace is consistently ranked as one of the greatest and most influential rappers of all time" in the first paragraph of the introduction.

89.88.183.54 (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done clpo13(talk) 23:19, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2016
In the death and funeral section, it states that Tupac Shakur was killed 6 months after Wallace which means that Tupac would've been killed in September of 1997, when in fact Tupac was killed six months earlier, in September of 1996.

Blynko (talk) 09:26, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: AFAICT it says six months after Tupac Shakur was killed. If I'm missing something, please reopen the request with a direct quote. Sam Sailor Talk! 15:14, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Edit Request - Text inconsistent with reference used in Legacy section
The Legacy section mentions "Editors of About.com ranked him No. 4 on their list of the Top 50 MCs of Our Time (1987–2007).[86]" However, following the link in the reference reveals a list where he ranks #3. The text should be updated to either reflect the current ranking and list located at that link, or a new link should be identified and used in the reference for the archived ranking where he is listed at #4. Martyf6 (talk) 08:17, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Avic ennasis @ 10:02, 6 Tevet 5777 / 10:02, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Alias update
The robbery expert. I feel this is important since it is one of biggies names as referred to on gimme the loot — Preceding unsigned comment added by JStamatiadi (talk • contribs) 06:06, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Interesting Sentence Structure
This article states: "According to Lil' Cease, Wallace's leg was shattered when they hit a rail along with Lil's Cease's jaw." Kind of conjures up an interesting picture as phrased. Might read better as: According to Lil' Cease, his jaw and Wallace's leg were shattered when the car hit a rail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.90 (talk) 14:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130204163022/http://www.thesource.com/articles/7752/Biggie-Smalls-Unsigned-Hype/?thesource-prod to http://www.thesource.com/articles/7752/Biggie-Smalls-Unsigned-Hype/?thesource-prod
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061213144725/http://www.mtv.com/bands/n/notorious_big/lyrics/ to http://www.mtv.com/bands/n/notorious_big/lyrics/

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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on The Notorious B.I.G.. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150410043403/http://www.egotripland.com/busta-rhymes-biggie-ready-to-die/ to http://www.egotripland.com/busta-rhymes-biggie-ready-to-die/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120829192529/http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/ktla-inmate-confesses-to-shooting-tupac,0,7066977.story to http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/ktla-inmate-confesses-to-shooting-tupac,0,7066977.story
 * Added tag to http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=1711041&title=Born+Again+%5BExplicit+Lyrics%5D&artist=The+Notorious+B.I.G.
 * Added tag to http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=4597591&title=Ready+To+Die+%5BExplicit+Lyrics%5D+%5BRemaster%5D&artist=The+Notorious+B.I.G.

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Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2017
[Intro] Yo, Big Shaq, the one and only Man's not hot, never hot Skrrat, skidi-kat-kat Boom

[Verse 1] Two plus two is four, minus one that's three, quick maths Everyday man's on the block, smoke trees See your girl in the park, that girl is a uckers When the ting went quack-quack-quack, you man were ducking (you man ducked) Hold tight, Asznee (my brudda), he's got the pumpy (big ting) Hold tight, my man (my guy), he's got the frisbee I trap, trap, trap on the phone, movin' that cornflakes Rice Krispies, hold tight my girl Whitney (my G) On the road doin' ten toes, like my toes (like my toes) You man thought I froze, I see a peng girl, then I pose (chilin') If she ain't on it, I ghost, hah, look at your nose (check your nose, fam) You donut, nose long like garden hose

[Chorus] I tell her man's not hot, I tell her man's not hot The girl told me, "Take off your jacket" I said, "Babes, man's not hot" (never hot) I tell her man's not hot (never hot) I tell her man's not hot (never hot) The girl told me, "Take off your jacket" I said, "Babes, man's not hot" (never hot)

[Verse 2] Hop out the four-door with the .44, it was one, two, three and four (us man) Chillin' in the corridor (yo), your dad is forty-four And he's still callin' man for a draw (look at him), let him know When I see him, I'm gonna spin his jaw (finished) Take man's Twix by force (take it), send man's shop by force (send him) Your girl knows I've got the sauce (flexin'), no ketchup (none) Just sauce (saucy), raw sauce Ah, yo, boom, ah

[Refrain] The ting goes skrrrahh, pap, pap, ka-ka-ka Skidiki-pap-pap, and a pu-pu-pudrrrr-boom Skya, du-du-ku-ku-dun-dun Poom, poom, you dun know

[Chorus] I tell her man's not hot (man's not), I tell her man's not hot (never hot) The girl told me, "Take off your jacket" I said, "Babes, man's not hot" (never hot) I tell her man's not hot I tell her man's not hot (never hot) The girl told me, "Take off your jacket" I said, "Babes, man's not hot"

[Bridge] Man can never be hot (never hot), perspiration ting (spray dat) Lynx Effect (come on), you didn't hear me, did you? (nah) Use roll-on (use that), or spray But either way, A-B-C-D (alphabet ting)

[Refrain] The ting goes skrrrahh, pap, pap, ka-ka-ka Skidiki-pap-pap, and a pu-pu-pudrrrr-boom Skya, du-du-ku-ku-dun-dun Poom, poom, you dun know

[Outro] Big Shaq, man's not hot I tell her man's not hot (never hot) 40 degrees and man's not hot (come on) Yo, in the sauna, man's not hot (never hot) Yeah, skidika-pap-pap — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.144.235.240 (talk) 11:12, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * How very enlightening. Thanks so much. Martinevans123 (talk)