Talk:The Old Guard (2020 film)

Superhero film?
I haven’t read the comics (and there’s no Wiki page about them to educate myself) but having seen the film I’m confused why we’re labeling it as a “superhero” film and not just an “action” one? Just because they’re immortal? Or am I missing something here? Thanks! TropicAces (talk) 15:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Both the director and critics refer to it as a superhero film:
 * https://www.salon.com/2020/07/12/the-old-guard-ending-sequel-gina-prince-bythewood/
 * https://www.npr.org/2020/07/10/889736779/groundbreaking-old-guard-expands-the-possibilities-of-the-superhero-genre
 * https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/the-old-guard-tough-questions-easy-answers-netflix-greg-rucka/
 * https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a33284013/old-guard-netflix-comics-differences-rucka/
 * Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Good looks, thanks! Was just curious TropicAces (talk) 22:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've also seen a few articles on the Old Guard debating the line between action film & superhero film so good idea to bring it up. I'm leaning towards superhero because I've seen a lot of articles highlight the director as the first black woman to direct a major comic-book/superhero movie & the film as the first major queer romance in a superhero movie. On a different note, there's probably enough sources at this point just about the comic so I should probably get a draft for it going. Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I was going to point out the action film attribution before I saw your latest comment. I'll still go ahead and do that. What I was going to state is that there are just as many or more reliable sources calling it an action film or action thriller, including (among others):


 * "The Old Guard May Be the Best Action Movie of the Summer," from Time


 * The New York Times states, "But then the pandemic hit, the theatrical release of Yan’s film was shortened, and 'Mulan' and 'Wonder Woman 1984' have both been delayed until a substantial number of theaters can open. That means  'The Old Guard,' which is based on a comic book written by Greg Rucka and illustrated by Leandro Fernandez and streaming Friday on Netflix, has now become one of the few action movies with any sort of guaranteed release this summer."


 * Variety quotes director Gina Prince-Bythewood stating, "They said in the room that they loved 'Love & Basketball' and loved 'Beyond the Lights' and loved what I did with the characters with that and they wanted that vibe for 'The Old Guard' so that it didn't just feel like an action film, but more like an action drama," she recalled. "And for me to move into the space, that’s exactly what I wanted as well."


 * Business Insider states, "Netflix debuted its new comic-book action movie, 'The Old Guard,' on Friday."


 * IndieWire states, "Is there a future ahead for Netflix's smash-hit action movie 'The Old Guard'? Don't rule it out, as the film is currently sitting at the top spot in the in the charts for the United States after just releasing on July 10."


 * CNET states, "The new action film focuses on a tight-knit group of mercenaries who happen to be immortal. [...] If you're looking for a paint-by-numbers action movie, look no further than The Old Guard. Sometimes it can be comforting to watch a flick that seems familiar. Check out CNET's review of The Old Guard if you want to know more (warning: some spoilers). Or you could just watch the movie from Friday. Whatever floats your boat.''"


 * The Hindustan Times states,"Based on the comic book by Greg Rucka and Leandro Fernandez, the film is directed by Gina Prince-Bythewood, who had thus far displayed no evidence of having a knack for making action movies. And there lies the problem. By not allowing women to make big-budget action movies, based on false assumptions and decades of prejudice, truly talented filmmakers such as Prince-Bythewood are being sidelined in favour of inexperienced white men. I can name a dozen recent action films that are infinitely inferior to The Old Guard, but were made simply because their male directors came cheap and proved themselves to be pushovers."


 * GQ UK states "The new action film starring Charlize Theron follows a group of immortal mercenaries. If they can't die, they can't lose. So wherein lies the drama?"


 * Variety also states, " 'The Old Guard' is at once a conventional action thriller; an origin story that's trying, in its utilitarian Netflix way, to launch a badass franchise; and an 'elegiac' late episode of that same franchise. It’s a genre movie that, if anything, takes its characters a lot more seriously than the audience does."


 * "Jafar Actor Marwan Kenzari Joins Charlize Theron in Action Thriller 'Old Guard' (Exclusive)'," from The Hollywood Reporter


 * The Los Angeles Times states, "In the action thriller, now streaming on Netflix, Theron plays Andy, short for Andromache the Scythian, who for more than 6,000 years has been fighting battles all over the world. Layne plays Nile, a U.S. Marine who discovers her own new powers of immortality when she recovers from having her throat slashed while deployed in Afghanistan. Andy recruits Nile to her small band of immortal fighters from different eras, who battle injustices across the globe.


 * NME states, "The action-thriller, which dropped on the streaming platform last Friday (July 10), follows a group of immortal mercenaries,hunted by an evil scientist."


 * A number of reliable sources, including a few I listed above, simultaneously refer to it as a superhero film and an action film (or action thriller).


 * It does seem misleading and somewhat reductive to simply refer to it as a superhero film. It's not a typical superhero film, which is why Tropic Aces asked the above question. I'll contact WP:Film to weigh in on this. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:56, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree that it is reductive to just call it a superhero film. It doesn't mean it can't qualify as one, but is it the overarching (and singular) genre? It doesn't seem like it to me. No problem with mentioning "superhero" elements a little later, though, if it can fit. Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 11:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * SnapSnap, regarding this? We are discussing it now. There is no WP:Consensus to call this a superhero film and leave it at that. WP:FILMLEAD states, "Genre classifications should comply with WP:WEIGHT and represent what is specified by a majority of mainstream reliable sources." We can relay both aspects in the lead. As noted by me above, the director herself stated "action drama." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:37, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Exactly, it's still being discussed. No consensus has been reached yet, so I reverted that IP user based on WP:STATUSQUO. I do, however, agree that calling it an "action thriller" would be more appropriate, given the number of reliable sources that do so.  snap snap  (talk) 00:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason is can't be called both? The Daily Beast [1] article on the queer representation contrasted the movie with Marvel & DC movies. But the article also highlights the action movie vs superhero movie debate: Whether or not you classify the film as a “superhero movie” depends on how much of a stickler you want to be about the definition of “immortal mercenaries.” But either way, The Old Guard is revolutionary. Depending on how you look at it, it is the first movie with out gay superheroes, or the extremely (extremely) rare action film to feature queer characters and acknowledge their romance. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:49, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I see that made this edit, adding the "The Old Guard Is Not a Superhero Story" Vulture source, which interviews the writer. But, yes, we can mention both. Erik essentially stated this, but appears to be stating that both shouldn't be in the lead sentence. And I stated, "We can relay both aspects in the lead." How to relay them is the question. I definitely think that "action film" should be in the lead sentence. Later, we can maybe state something like, "based on his superhero comic book of the same name" or "subverts the superhero genre" (like the source Jediado provided states).


 * Erik, any ideas? Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:07, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I've reverted Jediado's edit, not because I disagree with replacing "superhero film", but simply because the user made no effort to discuss the matter here. Personally, I believe "action thriller film" would be more descriptive than just "action film". As for including the "superhero" bit, I agree with your "based on his superhero comic book..." suggestion. The "subverts the superhero genre" bit sounds more fitting when discussing the film's critical reception. Maybe something along the lines of "It received generally positive reviews from critics, who praised the action sequences and Theron's performance, while commending the film for subverting the superhero genre."  snap snap  (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay. With some sources from above, I will add "action thriller" and change "based on his comic book of the same name" to "based on his superhero comic book of the same name." I'll wait a day and see if anyone objects. After it's added, there will likely be more discussion about this, but at least my proposal is a step forward. Regarding what you stated about the "subverts the superhero genre" bit, I also thought similarly. But if we elaborate on that lower in the article, I do think something about this film not being a typical superhero film -- that it subverts -- should be in the lead. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:07, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Re-reading your comment, it seems that you also feel that the "subverts the superhero genre" bit should be in the lead? You weren't stating that we should move it to the critical reception section and leave it at that? Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I meant that, if we were to mention in the lead that film "subverts the superhero genre", it should be included alongside the critical reception bit of the lead (after it says "It received generally positive reviews..."), and not be presented as a fact (since it's the opinion of one critic). Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly. Or we could just move the "subverts..." bit to the critical reception section and call it a day, like you said.  snap snap  (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The "critics" part of your "subverts the superhero genre" proposal satisifies WP:In-text attribution. We are attributing it to critics instead of stating plainly in Wikipedia's voice that the film subverts the superhero genre. I don't think we should name any one critic in the lead, especially since more than one critic has spoken on how the film subverts the superhero genre/is not a typical superhero film. Noting one critic would also be misleading WP:In-text attribution. But, yeah, we have a plan. So, again, I will wait a little longer for any other opinions. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:57, 20 July 2020 (UTC) Fixed typos. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

"The Old Guard (upcoming film)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect The Old Guard (upcoming film). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 23 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Award nomination
--- Another Believer ( Talk ) 01:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 32nd GLAAD Media Awards