Talk:The Oratory School

J.R.R. Tolkien
Was J.R.R. Tolkien really a teacher at The Oratory? He may have stayed there but I don't think he taught there. DavidFarmbrough 08:30, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Nobody has commented in two weeks, so I will remove the reference to JRR as a former master. DavidFarmbrough 14:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * His son was a housemaster and he certainly stayed there, tradition has it that he wrote some of the Lord of the Rings there, but he was not a master. Westminsterboy 16:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I have removed the reference to Tolkien writing parts of The Hobbit at Woodcote as it was published in 1937 and the school only moved there in 1942, and made it clear that it was his son who taught there.--Westminsterboy 06:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * A former pupil has confirmed that though not a master JRR Tolkien occasionally covered lessons for absent teachers whilst staying with his son. --Westminsterboy 00:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I am an OS Old Boy (1947-1950) and can verify that JRRT never taught there as Master or visitor. His son Michael taught History and English to the Upper and Lower Fourth Forms (Creative Writing?) full time. None of my old classmates remember ever seeing JRRT at the OS. Headmaster George Arthur Tomlinson would not have passed the chance to have a famous writer at the refectory table for all the school to see (he was thrilled to provide lunch for  Evelyn Waugh, who handed out the prizes at the OS for "Firsts" in 1947). However, I do remember hearing that some boys had cycled to Oxford one weekend, and had visited JRRT there. MHRT was very kind to me when I returned to the OS in October 1952 as a visiting "Old Boy", and put me up for the night, as Rev. G.A.T. would not allow me to stay in the Dorms. He told me his father used to read to him and brother Christopher at bedtime from a book he had written (was writing?). At that time I had no idea his father was a very well known writer and scholar. Michael was reading the same to his first child. Tj4750 16:54, 21 August 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tj4750 (talk • contribs)

References for Terminology and Slang
What is the reference for verifying this section? -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * See 'A Catholic Eton? Newman's Oratory School ' by Paul Shrimpton, ISBN 0-85244-661-6 VexillaRegis 16:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have had a chance to review this book, and while it provides a fascinating account of 19th century public school politics and religion, in the days when people said thee and thou, it does not support this slang section. This list is an unencyclopaedic blight on this article. -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Why were my comments about the many inaccuracies in the terminology and slang section deleted and by whom? For example, 'brats' are SECOND year boys; the standard punishment is a 'quarter of an hour' not, as you claim, a half and hour. Wikipedia brags about its commitment to accuracy but that would largely seem to be just talk. I repeat: WHY were by comments on this discusisn page removed and by WHOM? And what are the deleter's credential? When did he attend the OS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfgpowell (talk • contribs) 08:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Pfgpowell, your questions can be answered by consulting the "history" tab on the article page. Furthermore, your contributions would be easier to identify if you would take the trouble to log in before editing. This is not required, but it does have advantages, both for yourself and for those you indignantly charge with character failings. Finally, it is not necessary to repeat your postings to this page. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 18:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * See below. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 18:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree entirely with zzuuzz that the the list is unencyclopedic, being not only out of date with current practices at the school, but also having no notability whatsoever. Accordingly, I've moved it below, and when it can actually be backed up by verifiable references it can be reinstated, if anyone other than Pfgpowell actually cares. The article is much improved by its absence, IM(NS)HO. PeterBrett (talk) 10:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I notice that we are currently in a (slow) edit war on this topic.
 * My removal of the list was undone two days later by 195.234.243.2.
 * Three minutes later, the list was removed again by Luna Santin.
 * The list was immediately reinstated by 195.234.243.2.
 * Zzuuzz stepped in to remove the list again.
 * 6 months later, Pfgpowell reinstated the list again.
 * None of these edits were carried out accompanied by any discussion on this talk page, despite my link in my original edit summary. I have now added the  template to the section.  In the last two years, no effort has been made by Pfgpowell to add references to the section, which is, as I have pointed out already, not encyclopaedic.  If no references have been added in the next month, I will remove the section again. I have also posted a  template message on Pfgpowell's user talk page — PeterBrett (talk) 17:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The offending section has now been removed by Jonathanwallace as it also contravenes WP:OR. — PeterBrett (talk) 18:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I have reinstated the Terminology and Slang section because it is most certainly of interest to Old Boys and relatives of boys who attended the OS. The last time one of my edits was undone, I asked the contributor when had he attended the OS and what his house was. It turned out that he had never attended the OS, had never actually visited Great Britain and lived in Arizona. He could give me no good reason at all for his edit and finally agreed that my edit was valid. So, Mr Brett, when did you attend the OS and what was your house? And why do you insist that the section I have reinstated has no place in the entry for the OS? Pfgpowell (talk) 17:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * SJ '97---04, since you seem to be insisting on argumentum ad verecundiam. I've explained great detail why your information is not encyclopaedic above (WP:OR, for starters), and you yourself admit that it is not of general interest. Since you think that it may be of interest to Old Boys and their relatives (which I, as an Old Boy myself, violently disagree with, by the way), consider writing an article for The Oratorian. PeterBrett (talk) 14:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

This section is unsourced, and has been removed multiple times by multiple editors over the course of years, yet keeps getting re-added without sources of any kind. Wikipedia is not a complete exposition of all possible details, and without reliable sources showing not only the verifiablility, but also the weight of the section, it should removed until it can be established. Especially when taking into consideration the number of editors that have removed the unsourced section in question, I think it is important to discuss and achieve a consensus concerning the section before inserting it into the article. - SudoGhost 16:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed move
The official name of the school does not include 'The', and Wikipedia naming conventions discourage definite articles. Oratory School lists a number of schools operated by the Oratorians, including this one. I propose moving this article to Oratory School (Oxfordshire). -- Rob C. alias Alarob 20:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems the school has the definitive article in its title -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree, As my dad attended this school, i know it is known as The Oratory, not oratory school. Dingyv03 02:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In the article it's also referred to as "the OS." Maybe these things change. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 05:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The British Library "rebranded" as The British Library not so many years ago, but wikipedia keeps the main article under the old name ... --Paularblaster (talk) 09:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The Oratory School's postal address is "The Oratory School", and all of the internal literature uses the definite article. "The" is part of the name of the school PeterBrett (talk) 13:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Considering the disambiguation page that exists at Oratory School, I'm inclined to let the current title remain as it is. Adding "(Oxfordshire)" or any other geographic qualifier would not necessarily be much help. I think a dab line at the top of the page, directing to Oratory School, is in order however. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 18:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This debate would seem to be another of those initiated by the kind of anal pedant who gives humanity a bad name. I was at the OS from 1963 until 1968 and it was known as The Oratory School by everyone. Pfgpowell (talk) 17:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Unreferenced
There must be plenty of sources - this is a school founded by John Henry Newman and James Hope-Scott, and taught at by Gerard Manley Hopkins and Tom Arnold! It's very sad that this article is entirely unreferenced, and for a large part appears to rely on personal memories of old boys. --Paularblaster (talk) 09:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * sorry - there were two references hidden in the text. I've in-lined them and switched Template:Unreferenced for Template:Refimprove. Final comment is still "Could do better". --Paularblaster (talk) 09:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Who is this Alex Hurn?
Is it important? DavidFarmbrough (talk) 08:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Cipriani edit war & the list of former pupils
There has been an extended edit war with an unregistered user over Daniel Cipriani's entry in the list of old boys, with the following text often being added:


 * Daniel Cipriani Rugby Footballer, England, England U.21 & Wasps. However, Cipriani attended on a rugby scholarship for a very short time indeed, before he decided to go back and live with his family, and including his name here as an 'Old Oratorian' alongside those who spent their secondary school years at the OS seems rather odd. It smacks of a - quite unnecessary - attempt to burnish an already illustrious list even more. Not condoned by this contributor, but I leave it to someone else to remove the entry as the majority might prefer to collude in the fiction.

This text is clearly inappropriate for the format of the list. Daniel Cipriani *is* an old boy -- the editor seems to be arguing that he is not a *notable* old boy. My gut instinct is to remove him altogether. -- PeterBrett (talk) 16:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

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"It is the last Catholic all-boys boarding school remaining in Great Britain"
Is this really true? In the mid/late 80s there were 2 girls at the school, daughters of one of the teachers (I don't recall his name). The two girls seem to have been a rare exception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 14:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)