Talk:The Order (white supremacist group)

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): WesDuchene2.0. Peer reviewers: TheBasher55.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Various concerns
Correcting factual errors throughout.Keltic 02:41, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The Order WAS NOT part of Aryan Nations. That is totally false. --24.14.60.110

Frazier Glenn Miller is thought of as a rat by a large segment of the white supremacist community for his role in testifying against the Order.

is this line really neccesary? --Threatis 03:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Based on Frazier Glenn Miller, he ought to at least be mentioned, altho probably not in that fashion. But I don't think it's non-NPOV (as the person who removed it said), if there was some specific source about him being viewed as a rat. --Mairi 06:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I would consider using the term "rat" as NPOV --Threatis 02:36, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry that my comment wasn't clear; I agree that the quoted sentence isn't NPOV. But if we can find and attribute it to a specific source (and it ought to be possible, if it's the view of many people as claimed), I think it could be included NPOVly. --Mairi 01:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with any move to merge the Robert J. Matthews article with that of The Order. Bob Matthews was a minor historical figure of sufficient significance to warrant his own article. The Order, the group he led, was a separate entity, and ought to have a separate article. Keeping the two articles separate is equivalent to what is ordinarily done with regard to more fashionable subject matter; unpopular topics should not be held to a higher standard. KevinOKeeffe 10:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep the two articles separate.67.72.98.45 22:35, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Rollback
I've rolled back some long and rhetorical additions over the last few days. If there's a significant theoretical contribution by Mathews to the white supremacist ideology, that should probably be added at Robert Jay Mathews. If there's an identifying ideology that sets The Order apart from the mainstream of white supremacy, that should be put here. Otherwise, theoretical discussions should probably stay at white supremacy. --ESP 14:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This page is written as an advertisement for white supremacy and neofascism. The Order was white supremacist and antisemitic terrorist group, not a philosophical society that happened to have run-ins with law enforcement.--Cberlet 14:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Ideology
Where did this "That the presence, history, and manifestations representing a 'unified European' heritage were being reduced either by design or happen-chance to such an extent, that no honorable man or woman could, or would, remain silent." come from? I can't find it in Flynn and Gerhadt, who wrote the definitive work on them. It should either have a reference or be replaced by something a little more comprehensible. DonSiano 21:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Flynn and Gerhardt were amatures. They did not 'interview' all the defendants, nor did they have 'real' access to the mind set of RJM or his comrads; they sat in court, read some documents...AND THAT WAS IT! If you really have a scientific background, then you should be the first to stress that it would be imperical study, a Western concept, by going to the 'source(s). This, these men, did not. The major portion of the 'edit job' you did, is in contravention of a Bruder himself; a man who lived, fought, and was sent to prison for these same actions and beliefs. Your paltry and feeble sense of shock is understandable; perhaps you know your way around here a little better than some of us, but as for source, I refrained from particulars, since the freedom of this man might/would be put back into question.

Further note: Flynn and Gerhardt, like all persons who favor a quick buck, 'threw' this book together. All in all, it is roughly 15% of the story, but is about 85% accurate in the telling (this from the Bruder in question)

I choose not to keep wasting time by constantly readdressing the issues pertained here but, please, keep your erudite, soft chested, comments out of this discussion, as your lack of knowledge, as that of most of the others, is troubling.

To the other 'editors': Many of you have attempted to discuss, and post, an informative article regarding this group (Bruder Schweigen) as well as Robert J. Mathews; you have the thanks of all who wish to 'know' what the 'truth' of the matter is; those of you who seek to ever 'contravene' what you do not understand or like, thereby utilizing this forum to attack, defame, and otherwise print 'lies' or twisted perversity is seen by those who know, as worse than a crime against those who sacrificed everything for their people. --Keltic 09:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Even fascist white supremacist revolutionaries can edit here on Wikipedia, but still have to cite to published sources, rather than organically channeling WOTAN text through the gene pool.--Cberlet 15:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I have attempted to re-write this page with a more neutral point of view.--Apeloverage 13:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the entry on Mathews is also basically Nazi propaganda. --Apeloverage 04:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge
No they're completely different subjects. One is a person, the other an organization.

Update
The website that advocates freeing the order should be put on the links section or as a reference. Many WN's veiw the order as political prisoners, they tried a 2nd one according to the ADL and some more skinheads marched on a federal building demanding they be freed. --[Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.4.233 on 03:32, 16 December 2006]
 * Wikipedia is not an advocacy site and such an advocacy link would be inappropriate. --- Skapur 02:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is the quality of this article in dispute? --[Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.4.233 on 22:17, 16 December 2006]

Vandalism by 67.204.21.203
Attempts to vandalise this page are in violation of Neutral point of view. Autarch (talk) 19:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Terrorist Group?
Given the group's subversive nature, hostility towards certain ethnic groups and most importantly, their violent nature; wouldn't it be fair to classify them as a terrorist group?Shabeki (talk) 08:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It has been considered a terrorist group for quite some time. DN (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

FBI Files
Has anyone read the FBI Files? They are located here on the FBI website:. Adamdaley (talk) 00:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Bias Tag Added
Bias tag was added as this article seems very pro-Order and pro-racist, especially in its characterization of Order prisoners and alleged Order activities. Article needs editing to have more balance. The  Moody  Blue (Talk)  21:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

"Sons of Liberty" and "The Order", same group?
From the top of the history section:

```` The Order was founded by Robert Jay Mathews in late September 1983 at Mathews' farm near Metaline, Washington.[1] Matthews was baptized into the Mormon faith as a high schooler. He formed the "Sons of Liberty", an anti-communist militia mostly made up of Mormon survivalists and bearing little resemblance to the historical organization of the same name. A fundamental goal of The Order was ... ````

So Robert Jay Mathews founded a militia called "Sons of Liberty", but since that is spliced in after talking about where he was from and what his religion was, it is not clear if it is purely incidental biographical information about the founder or whether it is exactly the same group. Later on, it says the name of the order came from "The Turner Diaries", but doesn't state that the group's name was changed or whether it had two names or what. If it's not exactly the same thing, then a more precise description of the relationship between the groups would be nice. If it is exactly the same thing, then making that more explicit would be an improvement. JimCrayne (talk) 05:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Former leader?
The info box says Key people: Robert Jay Mathews (leader). Apparently the group doesn't exist anymore, and Matthews died in 1984. But should we change it to say 'former leader'? He obviously isn't still the leader, but then again saying former might make it seem like the group does still exist. Thoughts?75.151.5.228 (talk) 17:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Peer Review (4/13)
I think the key aspect of this piece is the very specific detail throughout the information given. The article does a great job giving the brief history of the group and the background effects of the initiation of the group and funding. This article also does have an encyclopedic tone through the various paragraphs. Some of the things that I would change or add to the article would be a section over recruiting for the group and how they were able to get members to join their ideology then and now. Ending the article I would have a section on the current status of the group today and whether or not the group is still active in their goals. One take away from your article that I will do with mine is including a funding section and how my group lays out their funding. TheBasher55 (talk) 14:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Inside description by FBI informants
On Aug 19 2017, CNN's Declassified series, http://www.cnn.com/shows/declassified, aired a segment that contained agent of FBI detailed descriptions of early years. Would content from this transcript be properly sourced for inclusion into article?

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"Bombed a synagogue"?
Under the heading "Funding", it states "Their later attacks were more effective, including several lucrative bank robberies, as well as bombings of a theater and a synagogue." No source is provided for the latter claim, nor can I find mention of any synagogue in the US that was bombed after 1958. Can anyone explain, or provide the relevant source(s)? Thanks. Bricology (talk) 01:21, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Downfall and Tom Martinez
As I've only had time to start, here's a couple more sources. Terrorism in America...', SUNY Press. White Robes and Burning Crosses: A History of the Ku Klux Klan from 1866'', "FBI Informant Helped Put Hate in Its Place". Doug Weller talk 08:26, 14 March 2020 (UTC)